Do folks believe there is a devil out there anymore? Many don't live like it.

topher694 · Apr 11, 2021

Joyous Song said:
JS: It could also be because your facing less dangerous spirits. I say this because you do not seem humble enough to handle anything really dangerous as you are so quick to judge those whose experience you know nothing about. I read their testimony and they scream strong faith and show it throughout the exorcism. So why your experience is so different? They posted theirs to teach, why are you giving yours?

Oh the irony. This is way out of line. Perhaps you could use some deliverance yourself.

Joyous Song · Apr 12, 2021

topher694 said:
Oh the irony. This is way out of line. Perhaps you could use some deliverance yourself.

JS: I do not like your response as I never been affected in any way by demons and only met a few in others or by way of incidents or by helping those come to Christ. Yet gifts like demon exorcism are not for everyone. Do you have dreams or see visions from HaShem? Do you interpret tongues? Call down fire from heaven or move a mountain. Just because the Word says we can do something doesn't mean everyone in the Spirit will be given the same gifts. To each what they can handle and what fits their calling. Mine is not demon removal and you own testimony does not suggest you've face anything like that exorcist in Rome faces.

Still you may in time, so perhaps this is your call and in time you'll face something far worse. Perhaps these instances you have faced are a training ground of sorts. Time will tell. As for me, I know my call and its not yours.

topher694 · Apr 12, 2021

Joyous Song said:
JS: I do not like your response as I never been affected in any way by demons and only met a few in others or by way of incidents or by helping those come to Christ. Yet gifts like demon exorcism are not for everyone. Do you have dreams or see visions from HaShem? Do you interpret tongues? Call down fire from heaven or move a mountain. Just because the Word says we can do something doesn't mean everyone in the Spirit will be given the same gifts. To each what they can handle and what fits their calling. Mine is not demon removal and you own testimony does not suggest you've face anything like that exorcist in Rome faces.

Still you may in time, so perhaps this is your call and in time you'll face something far worse. Perhaps these instances you have faced are a training ground of sorts. Time will tell. As for me, I know my call and its not yours.

You know nothing of my testimony... zero.

Yes I do all of those things you mentioned and I train others to do the same. One thing that I've learned is that people who claim to have no demons often have the most.

You asked FD several very specific questions... you asked! He answered, and them you accuse him of not being humble because of it? Or basically you accused him of being prideful. That is textbook projected pride, and it is something you can and should be delivered from.

Joyous Song · Apr 12, 2021

topher694 said:
You know nothing of my testimony... zero.

Yes I do all of those things you mentioned and I train others to do the same. One thing that I've learned is that people who claim to have no demons often have the most.

You asked FD several very specific questions... you asked! He answered, and them you accuse him of not being humble because of it? Or basically you accused him of being prideful. That is textbook projected pride, and it is something you can and should be delivered from.

JS: I did not mean those questions to imply he suffered pride only that though he seems highly gifted and on the way to becoming a powerful exorcist in time he is wrong to assume every person called by HaShem has the same gift. I do not cast out demons because that is not my gift.

topher694 · Apr 12, 2021

Joyous Song said:
JS: I did not mean those questions to imply he suffered pride only that though he seems highly gifted and on the way to becoming a powerful exorcist in time he is wrong to assume every person called by HaShem has the same gift. I do not cast out demons because that is not my gift.

You assused him of being not humble (prideful) for answering your questions... own it. You admit he is highly gifted and experienced in this area and you are not, yet you ignore his insights on the topic and presume to tell him how to do it better. That IS prideful.

Joyous Song · Apr 12, 2021

topher694 said:
You assused him of being not humble (prideful) for answering your questions... own it. You admit he is highly gifted and experienced in this area and you are not, yet you ignore his insights on the topic and presume to tell him how to do it better. That IS prideful.

JS: you who are judging me, say I am judging another? Forgive me if I find your words too judgmental. Also I know what I write and why I wrote it. I not perfect in my ability to communicate. Yet even though clearly, my message came off wrong I gave why I said it that way and what I was trying to state.

As for my seeing he still needs to go further in his ministry, this is by his own testimony. He has not faced what that Catholic exorcist has faced. Yet he has had success with demons less dangerous (by his own description, comparatively). Yet I assume if he continues this ministry he will in time meet up with one of the more powerful demons.

My ministry of teaching took this path. I at first taught children and later teens. Then people with minimal Spiritual training. This is what trained me to the ministry I work in now.

topher694 · Apr 12, 2021

Joyous Song said:
JS: you who are judging me, say I am judging another? Forgive me if I find your words too judgmental. Also I know what I write and why I wrote it. I not perfect in my ability to communicate. Yet even though clearly, my message came off wrong I gave why I said it that way and what I was trying to state.

As for my seeing he still needs to go further in his ministry, this is by his own testimony. He has not faced what that Catholic exorcist has faced. Yet he has had success with demons less dangerous (by his own description, comparatively). Yet I assume if he continues this ministry he will in time meet up with one of the more powerful demons.

My ministry of teaching took this path. I at first taught children and later teens. Then people with minimal Spiritual training. This is what trained me to the ministry I work in now.

Lol, the "don't judge me" response. Another common one for people who need deliverance, but can't see it. I only pointed out your words which were being unfair to FD. That's it. The fact that you can't handle that just proves my point. As does your second paragraph. That only proves you didn't listen to what he wrote but created your own narrative about him and a ministry you know little about.

Francis Drake · Apr 12, 2021

Soloworld said:
I wonder about this, because when I watch Christians behaving badly would they be able to detect demonic influence around them. I am thinking it would be kinda hard to if you behave in a way and think in way the devil promotes.
One easily seen way of knowing those who are following after someone other than God is by their lies. Jesus told those who were against Him. You are like your father the devil, he was a liar like you.
I mentioned this because as people are falling under the fate of the circumstances that these times are bringing like anti-God, drugs and promiscuous behavior they will also open themselves up to demonic influence.
Do we think demons have disappeared? Or have they just received a diagnosis? I believe God has, will and wants to free people from the power of the devil. I made this video because people do not give thought to these kinds of things much anymore. Jesus did say, "if you are a believer you will cast out devils"

I just watched the video, and it pretty much matches my learning curve in casting demons out. Also similar reaction from church leaders.

Soloworld · Apr 13, 2021

Francis Drake said:
I just watched the video, and it pretty much matches my learning curve in casting demons out. Also similar reaction from church leaders.

Yeah, it isn't something most christians will experience. But if your hungry and following the Lord you will run into it. It is part of the believer's experience here on plant earth, not the causal or rebellious christian experience.

spiritfilledjm · Apr 13, 2021

If one truly has the gift of discernment they should use it to know when to bow out of a conversation with a random person on the internet...like when it starts delving into deeply personal matters and taking the topic completely off course...

Francis Drake · Apr 13, 2021

Soloworld said:
Yeah, it isn't something most christians will experience. But if your hungry and following the Lord you will run into it. It is part of the believer's experience here on plant earth, not the causal or rebellious christian experience.

My involvement in deliverance was largely as a nobody, and elsewhere from the usual church meetings. And like yourself I found that many leaders had no clue on the subject.

In my view, there should be no such thing as a "Deliverance Ministry", much rather, it should be a natural part of every Christian's life. That's why I always try to get the person directly involved in their own deliverance and encourage them to tell the demons to go.

I've watched thousands of man hours being wasted on trying to get people's lives straightened out, all to no avail. Then you cast a few demons out, and it all falls into place.

topher694 · Apr 13, 2021

Francis Drake said:
In my view, there should be no such thing as a "Deliverance Ministry", much rather, it should be a natural part of every Christian's life. That's why I always try to get the person directly involved in their own deliverance and encourage them to tell the demons to go.

I'm curious how well this works for you. We do the same, and with a good amount of success, but we have the church behind it reinforcing it. How does it work without church support?

Joyous Song · Apr 14, 2021

Francis Drake said:
I suspect that the violence that Catholic church exorcists experience has more to do with their lack of the Holy Spirit and lack of Godly authority. The RC church places far too much dependency on religious mumbo jumbo, holy water, etc. than one what Christ did on the cross.
This can be seen in Acts19.-
Acts19v13Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
15And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”
16Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
These exorcists thought their status with the church (ie. The Temple in Jerusalem) would give them power, but they were spiritually dead. Likewise many priests who think their religious status gives them power when they too are spiritually dead.

On occasion I've been threatened with murder by the demon inside someone, but they too are subject to the authority that is in the blood of Jesus, and they get thrown out.

Tohpher694 claims my post was unfair to you even though I never meant my words the way he interpreted them. Still if they can be interpreted another way, I perhaps should try to be more clear, without potential ambiguity.

FD said: “Jesus commanded us to cast demons out, so why not get and do as he demands.” and “casting demons out should be part of normal life for all Christians, those who don’t do it are disobeying what Jesus commanded.

JS: Paul also wrote that to G-d gives His many different gifts of the Spirit to different people, each to gets what best for them and the kingdom. Thus these jobs He likened this to organs of the body, where each person calling is not greater or lesser, and that we have to work together, 1Cor.1.24-26.

So when I read Paul statement that we should all be able to cast out demons it falls under Christ own statement, with faith we can move mountains. Yet no one tells us we should all be moving literal mountains! And all gifts including those of the exorcist do not trump Love, the next chapter. This draws me to what got me so very angry, you said:

“I suspect that the violence that Roman Catholic Church exorcist experience has more to do with their lack of the Holy Spirit and the lack of G-dly authority. “

This makes no sense given the context of my testimony of what that exorcist stated he faced. People under demonic possession can act in a number of ways and some extremely alarming: rising off the floor, contorting their body, speaking in a disembodied voice, projectile vomiting, and knowing facts about those facing them they could not possible know.

It takes a very special person to face the worse kinds of demons. Thus not everyone can be or should be an exorcist. This had nothing to do with faith, It has to do with personality. As Paul stated there are different parts in the body because each person is gifted to play a specific role HaShem, praise be He, created them to do and called them to do.

I happen to respect Roman Catholic Exorcist and if our community had a problem with a demonic spirit like one I described above and needed help it would be from this group we ask likely for help. This is because their exorcists have a resume dating back two thousand years, each exorcist is trained by a master down through the ages.

Thus those prayers they use are ancient and have worked for thousands of years. To belittle a organization with that history and solid testimony and historical precedence is simply wrong!

And I say this even though I’m not Roman Catholic.

Also we migrated far from the origins of this post, Do Folks Believe There is a Devil Out There Anymore. I believe we proved rather conclusively we all do know about demons but this side topic on exorcism and who should or should not be one really should be on another thread.

So this is my last post on this topic. If you wish to respond to this post, start another tread on this forum. I keep my eyes open for it for at least a week to see if you do. Thank you.

topher694 · Apr 14, 2021

Joyous Song said:
Tohpher694 claims my post was unfair to you even though I never meant my words the way he interpreted them. Still if they can be interpreted another way, I perhaps should try to be more clear, without potential ambiguity.

FD said: “Jesus commanded us to cast demons out, so why not get and do as he demands.” and “casting demons out should be part of normal life for all Christians, those who don’t do it are disobeying what Jesus commanded.

JS: Paul also wrote that to G-d gives His many different gifts of the Spirit to different people, each to gets what best for them and the kingdom. Thus these jobs He likened this to organs of the body, where each person calling is not greater or lesser, and that we have to work together, 1Cor.1.24-26.

So when I read Paul statement that we should all be able to cast out demons it falls under Christ own statement, with faith we can move mountains. Yet no one tells us we should all be moving literal mountains! And all gifts including those of the exorcist do not trump Love, the next chapter. This draws me to what got me so very angry, you said:

“I suspect that the violence that Roman Catholic Church exorcist experience has more to do with their lack of the Holy Spirit and the lack of G-dly authority. “

This makes no sense given the context of my testimony of what that exorcist stated he faced. People under demonic possession can act in a number of ways and some extremely alarming: rising off the floor, contorting their body, speaking in a disembodied voice, projectile vomiting, and knowing facts about those facing them they could not possible know.

It takes a very special person to face the worse kinds of demons. Thus not everyone can be or should be an exorcist. This had nothing to do with faith, It has to do with personality. As Paul stated there are different parts in the body because each person is gifted to play a specific role HaShem, praise be He, created them to do and called them to do.

I happen to respect Roman Catholic Exorcist and if our community had a problem with a demonic spirit like one I described above and needed help it would be from this group we ask likely for help. This is because their exorcists have a resume dating back two thousand years, each exorcist is trained by a master down through the ages.

Thus those prayers they use are ancient and have worked for thousands of years. To belittle a organization with that history and solid testimony and historical precedence is simply wrong!

And I say this even though I’m not Roman Catholic.

Also we migrated far from the origins of this post, Do Folks Believe There is a Devil Out There Anymore. I believe we proved rather conclusively we all do know about demons but this side topic on exorcism and who should or should not be one really should be on another thread.

So this is my last post on this topic. If you wish to respond to this post, start another tread on this forum. I keep my eyes open for it for at least a week to see if you do. Thank you.

You keep referring to one example of extreme cases that you read about rather than listen to those who have decades of experience who are right here. Any believer can cast out demons and should where given the chance. That doesn't mean we all have a ministry of deliverance. You must be able to see the forest for the trees.

Francis Drake · Apr 14, 2021

Joyous Song said:
Tohpher694 claims my post was unfair to you even though I never meant my words the way he interpreted them. Still if they can be interpreted another way, I perhaps should try to be more clear, without potential ambiguity.

FD said: “Jesus commanded us to cast demons out, so why not get and do as he demands.” and “casting demons out should be part of normal life for all Christians, those who don’t do it are disobeying what Jesus commanded.

JS: Paul also wrote that to G-d gives His many different gifts of the Spirit to different people, each to gets what best for them and the kingdom. Thus these jobs He likened this to organs of the body, where each person calling is not greater or lesser, and that we have to work together, 1Cor.1.24-26.

Your mistake is thinking that casting demons out is a gift when it's nothing of the sort.

So when I read Paul statement that we should all be able to cast out demons it falls under Christ own statement, with faith we can move mountains. Yet no one tells us we should all be moving literal mountains!

Again, exorcism is not a gift, spiritual warfare should be a natural part of christian life.

And all gifts including those of the exorcist do not trump Love, the next chapter.

Jesus said, if you love me, you will obey my commandments, and that included casting demons out.

This draws me to what got me so very angry, you said:

“I suspect that the violence that Roman Catholic Church exorcist experience has more to do with their lack of the Holy Spirit and the lack of G-dly authority. “

This makes no sense given the context of my testimony of what that exorcist stated he faced. People under demonic possession can act in a number of ways and some extremely alarming: rising off the floor, contorting their body, speaking in a disembodied voice, projectile vomiting, and knowing facts about those facing them they could not possible know.

Over the decades, I've encountered all sorts of stuff like this, plus other oddities. Demons try all sorts of distractions to avoid being thrown out. Ultimately, they all have to bow down to the name of Jesus.

It takes a very special person to face the worse kinds of demons. Thus not everyone can be or should be an exorcist. This had nothing to do with faith, It has to do with personality.

It has everything to do with faith, -and obedience to what the Lord commended us. And nobody has to start off with the worst kinds of demons.

As Paul stated there are different parts in the body because each person is gifted to play a specific role HaShem, praise be He, created them to do and called them to do.

Again, nowhere is deliverance described as a gift, casting demons out is just acting in obedience to the Lord.

I happen to respect Roman Catholic Exorcist and if our community had a problem with a demonic spirit like one I described above and needed help it would be from this group we ask likely for help. This is because their exorcists have a resume dating back two thousand years, each exorcist is trained by a master down through the ages.

Drivel, just like everyone else, the resume of a Catholic exorcist dates no further back than the time they cast the first demons out.

Thus those prayers they use are ancient and have worked for thousands of years. To belittle a organization with that history and solid testimony and historical precedence is simply wrong!

Have you read what Jesus said when he cast demons out? None of your Catholic mumbo jumbo in the bible.

And I say this even though I’m not Roman Catholic.

Also we migrated far from the origins of this post, Do Folks Believe There is a Devil Out There Anymore. I believe we proved rather conclusively we all do know about demons but this side topic on exorcism and who should or should not be one really should be on another thread.

Discussing deliverance is not a deviation, but directly linked to the OP and the video on that OP.

So this is my last post on this topic. If you wish to respond to this post, start another tread on this forum. I keep my eyes open for it for at least a week to see if you do. Thank you.

I doubt there's much point having further discussion on deliverance. You are just arguing nothing more than second hand theory from a very narrow Catholic perspective, whereas I'm talking about maybe 40 years actual practice.
There's no common ground.

Francis Drake · Apr 14, 2021

topher694 said:
I'm curious how well this works for you. We do the same, and with a good amount of success, but we have the church behind it reinforcing it. How does it work without church support?

I'd love to give a straight answer, but I'm not really clear on the questions. I don't know how a church would reinforce deliverance or how you rate success.
Could you clarify how that works for you?

To fill in a bit on myself.
Back in the 70s I was a member of a fellowship that did a bit of deliverance, so that gave me a starting point. My wife and I always ran house groups, so for us, it naturally continued whenever needed in that context.

My problem was that instead of seeking the Lord, most people rushed to the elders for any sort of ministry, expecting the elders to be the source of all wisdom, and whatever the elders said must be the voice of God.
I guess I wanted to grow in the Lord so we just got on with it and encouraged other to do the same.
We parted company with that church, but continued with house groups, and it just happened over the years that I ended up doing loads of deliverance.

In all of it though, the one thing I hated was generating dependency on ourselves, a problem I always witness with church or deliverance ministries. I guess many ministers love to be 'needed by their flock', as if that is a measure of their self worth. To me that is contrary to what is good for believers and contrary to scripture.

I take delight in being a nobody and staying like that, so in most deliverance I try and draw them into participation so they can continue ministering to themselves and others.

Being in business myself, for a number of years we also ran a monthly fellowship gathering for Christian businessmen. As we gathered around a hotel room conference table, we would get everyone to introduce themselves and relate any burdens they were faced with, and then encourage people to lay hands and pray for one another. That was an amazing opportunity for ministering the gifts and doing deliverance and warfare.

For most people it was a complete culture shock, as they had never taken their Christianity outside of church, but we saw many lives and businesses turned upside down.
We also saw men and women praying and ministering to others for the first time in their lives.

Sadly, local churches hated us because it exposed their shallowness.
It also tackled the infantile culture of Christians ceaselessly suckling at the tit of their pastors.

topher694 · Apr 14, 2021

Francis Drake said:
I'd love to give a straight answer, but I'm not really clear on the questions. I don't know how a church would reinforce deliverance or how you rate success.
Could you clarify how that works for you?

To fill in a bit on myself.
Back in the 70s I was a member of a fellowship that did a bit of deliverance, so that gave me a starting point. My wife and I always ran house groups, so for us, it naturally continued whenever needed in that context.

My problem was that instead of seeking the Lord, most people rushed to the elders for any sort of ministry, expecting the elders to be the source of all wisdom, and whatever the elders said must be the voice of God.
I guess I wanted to grow in the Lord so we just got on with it and encouraged other to do the same.
We parted company with that church, but continued with house groups, and it just happened over the years that I ended up doing loads of deliverance.

In all of it though, the one thing I hated was generating dependency on ourselves, a problem I always witness with church or deliverance ministries. I guess many ministers love to be 'needed by their flock', as if that is a measure of their self worth. To me that is contrary to what is good for believers and contrary to scripture.

I take delight in being a nobody and staying like that, so in most deliverance I try and draw them into participation so they can continue ministering to themselves and others.

Being in business myself, for a number of years we also ran a monthly fellowship gathering for Christian businessmen. As we gathered around a hotel room conference table, we would get everyone to introduce themselves and relate any burdens they were faced with, and then encourage people to lay hands and pray for one another. That was an amazing opportunity for ministering the gifts and doing deliverance and warfare.

For most people it was a complete culture shock, as they had never taken their Christianity outside of church, but we saw many lives and businesses turned upside down.
We also saw men and women praying and ministering to others for the first time in their lives.

Sadly, local churches hated us because it exposed their shallowness.
It also tackled the infantile culture of Christians ceaselessly suckling at the tit of their pastors.

There's a lot there. Unfortunately I agree with your assessment of the how the average church handles deliverance. As a church that does embrace it and trains people to not rely on us, but to walk in it themselves and lead others in it I can tell you that many local churches dislike us as well, *shrug*

I guess my question is this: When you teach people to minister deliverance to themselves and to others, do they continue to walk in it, or does it fall by the wayside? As a church we encourage people to walk in it and minister to others and we've got some really cool testimonies as a result, but we also encourage them weekly to keep it up... without that weekly encouragement I wonder if the majority of folks continue to walk it out the way that you did.

Francis Drake · Apr 15, 2021

topher694 said:
There's a lot there. Unfortunately I agree with your assessment of the how the average church handles deliverance. As a church that does embrace it and trains people to not rely on us, but to walk in it themselves and lead others in it I can tell you that many local churches dislike us as well, *shrug*

It's encouraging to hear that.

I guess my question is this: When you teach people to minister deliverance to themselves and to others, do they continue to walk in it, or does it fall by the wayside? As a church we encourage people to walk in it and minister to others and we've got some really cool testimonies as a result, but we also encourage them weekly to keep it up... without that weekly encouragement I wonder if the majority of folks continue to walk it out the way that you did.

Do they keep up, or fall by the wayside?
That largely depends on their own motivation I guess, and who or where they fellowship. In my view, most churches encourage people to be lazy Christians, and if that's what they want, so be it.
A lot of the deliverance was done among house group members, and for most of them it became second nature, and when we parted company over the years, most of them retained the same perspective.

In an ideal world, your church description sounds great, but its rare.

The business fellowship was slightly different in that learning deliverance and spiritual warfare made the difference between bankruptcy and profit!
It is slightly disconcerting in our monthly meeting to see a suited businessman, after seeing deliverance for the first time, angrily thumping the conference table demanding why, in 20 years of attending his church he had never ever witnessed or been taught what he saw that night.
Those guys returned the next month with 3 or 4 business colleagues asking for help. We were inundated.
We didn't need to preach the gospel, when they saw the power of God, they started searching for themselves.

Many men are not interested in Church because it's far too pussified for them. But warfare in their field of work, that makes them sit up.
If you haven't explored that area, maybe you should.

Soloworld · Apr 15, 2021

Francis Drake said:
It's encouraging to hear that.

Do they keep up, or fall by the wayside?
That largely depends on their own motivation I guess, and who or where they fellowship. In my view, most churches encourage people to be lazy Christians, and if that's what they want, so be it.
A lot of the deliverance was done among house group members, and for most of them it became second nature, and when we parted company over the years, most of them retained the same perspective.

In an ideal world, your church description sounds great, but its rare.

The business fellowship was slightly different in that learning deliverance and spiritual warfare made the difference between bankruptcy and profit!
It is slightly disconcerting in our monthly meeting to see a suited businessman, after seeing deliverance for the first time, angrily thumping the conference table demanding why, in 20 years of attending his church he had never ever witnessed or been taught what he saw that night.
Those guys returned the next month with 3 or 4 business colleagues asking for help. We were inundated.
We didn't need to preach the gospel, when they saw the power of God, they started searching for themselves.

Many men are not interested in Church because it's far too pussified for them. But warfare in their field of work, that makes them sit up.
If you haven't explored that area, maybe you should.

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the conversation that this has incited.
I agree the whole concept of living for God is not for the lazy and (or) the cowards. Jesus said, the way is difficult and hard that leads to life and few find it. I think mainly because unless you push yourself you will never find what God wants of you as individual. It is through that perseverance and the trails you encounter doing the right things in life as you are attempting to live pleasingly before God with the knowledge and understanding you have. If you do not the fire of judgment can not purge you and refine you so you can continue growing in the knowledge and understand of God more.

topher694 · Apr 15, 2021

Francis Drake said:
In an ideal world, your church description sounds great, but its rare.

You have no idea. Neither did I in the beginning.

Do folks believe there is a devil out there anymore? Many don't live like it.

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