An Orthodox Deconstruction of Reformed Theology

ArmyMatt

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The Catholic tradition seems to have a bit of ambiguity about whether Tradition can include new revelation. The current position in the CCC seems to be no new public revelation. But Protestants think some developments in the tradition go beyond the bounds of interpreting and applying the Apostolic faith.

In my opinion, all forms of Christianity work the same way, despite claims to the contrary. They all start with an authoritative source, and interpret it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There are two differences, which aren't quite captured by "sola scriptura."

1) Protestants believe that the church can err and has erred. I think that's more important that sola scriptura, and in fact that sola scriptura follows from it. It has two consequences: (1) they are skeptical even of the early church, so rather than using both Scripture and the early church as a starting point, they use just Scripture. (2) they rejected significant parts of the tradition from which they came. But once they did that, the conservative parts are operating in the same way as Catholics and EO. The 16th Cent confessions (or for later groups, their founding beliefs) are treated as de facto inerrant, and so is the tradition coming from it. So further attempts at major change like the 16th Cent change get exactly the same reaction from conservative Protestants as the Reformation did from Catholics.

2) Mainline Protestants believe that our own tradition can err and has erred. So we are more willing to adjust beliefs and practices. We also believe that even the Biblical authors can err and have erred. That leads to treating them the same way that we would treat normal human witnesses, rather than as oracles.

unfortunately, the Bible itself contradicts the Protestant model. the Church, according to Christ, cannot err.

and if you think it's alright to adjust beliefs, then the authority is the individual, which is not Biblical or historic.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I've spent years proving tongues are not for today. We should go through it sometime.

again, that's just an assertion. you have not given any evidence here, let alone proof.
 
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Dave L

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again, that's just an assertion. you have not given any evidence here, let alone proof.
This is probably not the place. It would hi-jack the thread. But did you know that besides the two outpourings, the gifts came only through an Apostles hands? And the gifts ceased with them?
 
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ArmyMatt

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This is probably not the place. It would hi-jack the thread. But did you know that besides the two outpourings, the gifts came only through an Apostles hands? And the gifts ceased with them?

again, saying it ceased with the Apostles is just an assertion. I don't care about your assertions unless they can come with at least some evidence.
 
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Dave L

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again, saying it ceased with the Apostles is just an assertion. I don't care about your assertions unless they can come with at least some evidence.
Prove from Scripture the gift came in another way besides the two outpourings or through an Apostle's hands.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Prove from Scripture the gift came in another way besides the two outpourings or through an Apostle's hands.

prove from the Scripture that something happened after the Scripture...?
 
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hedrick

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unfortunately, the Bible itself contradicts the Protestant model. the Church, according to Christ, cannot err.

and if you think it's alright to adjust beliefs, then the authority is the individual, which is not Biblical or historic.
No it doesn’t. Typical overinterpretation.

Actually doctrinal development is done by the church. There’s pretty much just one mainline community, and it includes many Catholic scholars and theologians as well.
 
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ArmyMatt

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No it doesn’t. Typical overinterpretation.

Actually doctrinal development is done by the church. There’s pretty much just one mainline community, and it includes many Catholic scholars and theologians as well.

yeah it does.

and doctrine only develops in terms of articulation, not innovation.
 
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East of Eden

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not only that, but Pentecost happened in 33AD and the earliest New Testament text wasn't written until about 50AD. so how can sola Scriptures be true, when for the first 17 years there was no New Testament?

And there were not many of the church councils until much later, so? Jesus quoted extensively from the Old Testament Scripture, which predicted His coming and the New Covenant (or New Testament) and I would think Jesus' actions and teachings were well known in 50AD up until the witnesses began passing away.

The question you're avoiding is why do some teachings of the RCC and your church go against what the Bible teaches? It's what the Pharisees did.
 
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East of Eden

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And theology doesn't derive from the Pope. It derives from councils' reflection on scripture.

Such councils have erred in the past, and the 'first pope' Peter was publicly corrected by Paul, and Jesus said to Peter once, 'get behind me Satan'. Since councils and popes err and Scripture does not, councils and popes need to be judged by the standard of Scripture.
 
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East of Eden

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in Scripture Christ says the early Church got it right,

Cite? He was constantly correcting the Apostles, are you saying todays heirs of Apostolic Succession can't get it wrong? Jesus rebuked the early church in His letter to them in Revelation.
 
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East of Eden

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So the Church has to make new decisions, guided by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit would never guide the church to contradict the New Testament, which is what the RCC has done on numerous occasions.
 
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ArmyMatt

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And there were not many of the church councils until much later, so? Jesus quoted extensively from the Old Testament Scripture, which predicted His coming and the New Covenant (or New Testament) and I would think Jesus' actions and teachings were well known in 50AD up until the witnesses began passing away.

The question you're avoiding is why do some teachings of the RCC and your church go against what the Bible teaches? It's what the Pharisees did.

what we believe doesn't go against the Scripture.

and there were Councils happening all the time, especially in North Africa. the Councils you are thinking of are the ones called when the Empire was threatened.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Cite? He was constantly correcting the Apostles, are you saying todays heirs of Apostolic Succession can't get it wrong? Jesus rebuked the early church in His letter to them in Revelation.

He constantly corrects the bishops today. that's how Apostolic succession works. when even groups of bishops err, God corrects them.

but (for one verse) Christ said the Apostles would be guided into all truth (John 16:13).
 
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Valletta

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The Holy Spirit would never guide the church to contradict the New Testament, which is what the RCC has done on numerous occasions.
How do you know it is not you rather than the Catholic Church? This is just your personal and fallible opinion, we are all fallible human beings. Concentrate on what we have in common as brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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TL;DR - It all boils down to what your Ordo Theologae (Order of Theology) is.

For Roman Catholics; Theology derives from the Pope.
For Protestants; Theology derives from the scriptures.
For Othodox; Theology derives from the Holy Trinity.

**Note**
It's 2.5 hours long for the commentators who will inevitably post "I'd watch it, but it's 2.5 hours long."


wow if not for some new Protestant posters on the thread, I think I would have forgotten about this thread, the video of the OP etc. and I'm glad I didn't because I picked up some new stuff, but more importantly got a lot more areas for future study illuminated.

I got to confess in years past, I was not that impressed by Dyer.

My ex-wife when we were married, got into him around the time of his conversion to EO in his early "Crunchy Con" days, this was back when she got into a healthy, get away from chemicals type life style. But while I thought he was OK, I from time to time was underwhelmed by him because he got a lot of press fame for his various opinions etc. and their were times in the early 2003-2010 where I disagreed with him and did so based on having more a background in early church history, doctrine etc.

But he seems to have grown a lot since the last time I actually followed him, so good on him! It was also educational when they stopped talking about Protestantism and started talking about Orthodoxy, and the Ecumenical Patriarch etc.

Anyway, I'm glad some new life has come into the thread. I will have to take a more serious look and peruse all the old and new posts, and maybe make some replies. :)
 
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Pavel Mosko

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If Jay is your hero... :doh:He's a little unhinged.

Inspiring Philosophy - Michael Jones

I will not post the interactions he has had with Reformed Christians because posting the links would likely get me reported. Just google him. He was Reformed, than Catholic, than super Trad Cat, than walked away completely. Came back as Orthodox and fell away again now he's back.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

OK this post sort of post reminds me why I was liking him so much 10-15 years ago.
 
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