What do you think about the sacraments?

HatGuy

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Aren’t there a number of Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox churches in South Africa? Also, my understanding was that while the Anglican Province of South Africa was relatively liberal, it was also fairly high church. Also, what about the Traditional Latin Mass? In my experience that has become fairly widespread since Sacrosanctum Concilium. When I visited some relatives in Burkina Faso, I spent a few days in Ghana, and was impressed by how Anglo Catholic the Anglican Church in Ghana was.

I have a very good South African friend who joined the Russian Orthodox Church but was raised in the Reformed Church. Perhaps if things are as bad as you say they are, we should go there and work with like minded South Africans to set up new churches with a focus on liturgical beauty.
Thanks,

There may be a number, but I live in one of the biggest cities and only know of a few. Google Maps doesn't seem to produce a great ton of results.

Perhaps I still have some learning to do, however - I might not fully know what I'm talking about :).
 
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The Liturgist

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I think that there is a bigger picture to the question of sacraments. We understand sacraments to be outward and visible signs of inward and spiritual grace. Now signs have to point to something (New York 427 Miles --->) or declare Something (Welcome to New York).

Now each of us is called to live our life pointing to the truth of God and declaring something of the grace of God as we have experienced it.

The seven or two or how many you want to talk about, are good, and the show us something of what we should be. I think we should live life sacramentally, we should be the things that these seven or two point us to, and I think that the historical tradition of the Church highlight the few in order that we may be the many sacraments.

I agree entirely that we should seek to live our lives sacramentally. However, I think the traditional low church Anglican understanding of sacraments, as found in the Catechism of the 1662 BCP, that they are, to quote the Catechism, “an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace given unto us, ordained by Christ himself, as a means whereby we receive the same, and a pledge to assure us thereof,” is entirely inadequate to explain the sacred mysteries.

I believe that the sacraments are the normative means by which the Holy Spirit infuses us with grace, and that we directly receive grace through the sacred mysteries of Baptism, Chrismation (Confirmation), the Eucharist, Reconciliation, Holy Unction (the anointing of the sick with oil), Holy Matrimony and, that are commonly called sacraments, as well as “sacramentals” which seem to me to be no less of a sacred mystery than the Seven Sacraments, for example, the Great Blessing of Water, the various blessings of other things such as homes and businesses, the Funeral and Burial services, the Churching of Women, the Consecration of Church Buildings, the blessing of the congregation with consecrated incense, and other services typically found in a Sacramentary, Euchologion, or Trebnik. Interestingly, the 1964 Methodist Episcopal Book of Worship consists to a very large extent of blessings, consecrations and dedications.

The sacraments, or sacred mysteries, of Baptism and Holy Communion are particularly special, because not only do the consist of a highly specialized form of prayer, but also a rational, bloodless sacrifice, and an anamnesis in which we are mystically united with our Lord. In the rational and bloodless sacrifices, we offer up to God His own creatures, such as water to be consecrated for baptism, in which through anamnesis we become mystically present with Christ in the Jordan, or bread and wine, which are consecrated as the body and blood of Christ, which we then offer again to our Lord (the beautiful exclamation from the Byzantine Divine Liturgy “Thine Own of Thine Own, we offer unto Thee on behalf of all and for all.” And then, we partake of the sacrament, in Baptism by being purified by mystically dying and rising again with Christ in the Jordan, and in Holy Communion, we are mystically present at the Last Supper when we eat the life-giving flesh of the immortal and imperishable God-man Jesus Christ, and drink His blood, which is the blood of the new covenant; the Greek word for “remembrance” is anamnesis which means “put yourself in this moment,” which in fact is what happens, and the body and blood of our Lord is the medicine of immortality, remitting sins and granting life everlasting.

So, I believe the Holy Sacraments and the other sacred mysteries directly infuse sacramental grace through the boundless love of the omnipotent Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, who spoke by the prophet, who together with the Father from whom He proceeds and the Son whom He conceived to enter creation as a man, who then ascended to Heaven and sent the selfsame Spirit into the world as our Paraclete, is one God.

Interestingly I came to this view from output of three separate research projects, which all agreed in the essential details: firstly, one on one conversations with a friend of mine who is a retired Episcopalian priest, who is moderately Anglo-Catholic and also as far as I am aware, the last genuine conservative Episcopal priest in the Diocese of Los Angeles who did not leave for ACNA or other greener pastures; secondly, an exhaustive study of Eastern Orthodox, and to the extent possible, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian sacramental theology, and finally, a comparative study of Lutheran, Calvinist, and Roman Catholic sacramental theology which segued into an analysis of the impact the Scholastic movement had on Western Christianity vs. Eastern Christianity.

I believe my interpretation, while at odds with the catechism in the BCP, is held by many Anglo Catholic and some other high church Protestants, as well as by the Eastern, Oriental and Assyrian churches (both Orthodox and Uniate Catholic), and to a large extent by Roman Catholics, although Scholastic theologians would define several aspects of it differently, shy away from the idea that the sacraments are sacred mysteries, and also say that I am overemphasizing the similarity between the many Sacramentals and the seven Sacraments.
 
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Mountainmike

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It means acts, ideas, or the like handed down, and doesn't refer in particular to religious doctrines.

It refers entirely to religious doctrine. (which in some cases are acts like eucharist) 1 Corinthians 11:23 shows that process. It is the ONLY way the faith was handed down for the first christians. Carrying documents was dangerous. Those that were found were destroyed, those carrying them treated harshly. Few could read. So almost all WAS communicated by ORAL tradition.

The present colloquial meaning of tradition is a problem, as is the false presumption that it is a parallel channel of different truths. Scripture has a meaning. The meaning is handed down (tradition) and clarified by authority (councils). The OT and Mishnah show at least some things are not explicit in scripture that are explicit in tradition.

There is little point in this discussion. We go round the same circles.

Cranmer knew that in order to redefine the faith , he needed to abandon authority, ignore tradition, and like the reformationists he even redefined scripture to lose a book of the septuagint (Jesus's old testament) . Only then could he manipulate doctrine. By the way - I dont see cranmer as a villain, just more of a victim, trying to pick his way down an impossible path in trying to satisfy subseqent monarchs and catholicism.

We have much more in common than we differ...lets focus on that.
 
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The Liturgist

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Not if you look at who he said it to.
The apostles jointly and Peter alone.

Which of course brings in the question of tradition and authority.
We see in the NT that Jesus accepts the authority of "Moses Chair". But theres the problem. The reference to moses chair handed to joshua, judges etc, is in the "mishnah" which is tradition committed to paper. Paul tells us to hold true to the faith handed down "tradition we told youby word of mouth and letter". And that tradition is visible in ignatius to the smyrneans as a eucharist of the real flesh.

This is entirely so. And we also see it reflected in the 1st century manuals of church order, the Didache and the Didascalia.

Martin Luther himself at a conference with other early reformers who rejected the idea of a real, physical presence, famously carved into the wooden table at which they sat “Hoc est corpus meum.”
 
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Albion

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It refers entirely to religious doctrine. (which in some cases are acts like eucharist)
Of course the word "traditions" does not necessarily refer entirely to religious doctrine.

It is the ONLY way the faith was handed down for the first christians.
That is certainly not true. We know for a fact that some of the NT was being written and circulated within only a few years after the Ascension. By the time that the Bible was canonized, all of the books that were collected into it (with the possible exception of the last several) were already in use in the various churches and were considered divinely inspired.

The present colloquial meaning of tradition is a problem, as is the false presumption that it is a parallel channel of different truths.
Okay. I agree that "Holy Tradition" AKA "Sacred Tradition," which the Catholic churches consider to be of equal authority to the Holy Bible, is not a parallel channel of additional dogma, etc.

There is little point in this discussion. We go round the same circles.
Very well. That's probably right.
 
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Dave L

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Nope. And by your own admission. You yourself agreed that they unite us spiritually to the Lord in some way. And the verse you quoted still says: "This is my body."


Yep.
Prayer does this too. WHy make more of it than Paul or Jesus does? Scares me...
 
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The Liturgist

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Right, which is a good indication that it is more than a memorial.

I think there was a severe exegetical error in the post you replied to (but not in your reply, which was spot-on); the words of our Lord make it clear the Eucharist is a means of salvation, in that it remits sin and grants life everlasting to those who partake of it. But it can also, like any medicine, be a poison, and the specific conditions under which the Eucharist can kill is if people partake of it without repentance for their sins, failing to discern the body and blood of our Lord.

This is why the casual communion encouraged by some mainline Protestant churches is such a bad idea, along with the deletion or intentional omission of 1 Corinthians 11:27-32 from the Revised Common Lectionary.
 
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Dave L

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The point was that Jesus DOES make more of it than just a memorial (although it is that as well).

The passage being referred to (This is my body, which was given for you, etc.) is taken right from Luke's Gospel account of the Last Supper.
Where do you find ANY example of what you think in the NT faith and practice?
 
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Dave L

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Actually if we look at the Greek, he did not say it was a memorial. The word he used was anamnesis, which has a meaning closer to recapitulation. The best way to translate what the KJV reads as “Do this in remembrance of me” would be something along the lines of “As often as you do this, be a part of this moment.”

From the Anamnesis, many Eucharistic Theologians have made a compelling case that there has really only ever been one Lord’s Supper, one Holy Communion, one Eucharist or Great Thanksgiving, and that in the course of tje Divine Service, through the grace of the Holy Spirit, we are mystically present with Christ and His disciples in the Cenacle.
Where do you find examples of sacramental salvation in the NT? They do not exist.
 
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HatGuy

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This is self-salvation by works. You go beyond Paul and Jesus in giving your ideas about the eucharist.
How so?

Who gives the means of grace?

Whose Word institutes these means of grace?

Who instituted it in the first place?

Who brings healing and sanctification through it?

I fail to see how this would be a self-salvation by works, any more that faith is self-salvation. Grace is received, not self-made. This would be like saying that praying the "sinners prayer" and "receiving the Lord into your heart" are all self-salvation by works, or that even prayer itself is self-salvation.

To be more precise, however, "salvation" in scripture is a term with wide-meaning, including "healing". When the means of grace are said to bring salvation, it is more in the lines of healing and sanctification than justification.
 
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The Liturgist

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This is self-salvation by works. You go beyond Paul and Jesus in giving your ideas about the eucharist.

No, its not, because God freely forgives our sins if we repent, as Psalm 51 teaches. “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.” and of course, “Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed: thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow.”

Seeking the forgiveness of God and repenting of our sins before partaking of the Eucharist is not works righteousness, but rather the works which are the fruit of a living faith, as the Apostle James teaches, for a faith without works is barren and dead.
 
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HatGuy

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Actually if we look at the Greek, he did not say it was a memorial. The word he used was anamnesis, which has a meaning closer to recapitulation. The best way to translate what the KJV reads as “Do this in remembrance of me” would be something along the lines of “As often as you do this, be a part of this moment.”

From the Anamnesis, many Eucharistic Theologians have made a compelling case that there has really only ever been one Lord’s Supper, one Holy Communion, one Eucharist or Great Thanksgiving, and that in the course of tje Divine Service, through the grace of the Holy Spirit, we are mystically present with Christ and His disciples in the Cenacle.
This is beautiful.
 
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Dave L

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No, its not, because God freely forgives our sins if we repent, as Psalm 51 teaches. “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.” and of course, “Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed: thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow.”

Seeking the forgiveness of God and repenting of our sins before partaking of the Eucharist is not works righteousness, but rather the works which are the fruit of a living faith, as the Apostle James teaches, for a faith without works is barren and dead.
He atoned for the sins of the elect before they were born again. Repentance follows as a result of this.
 
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Albion

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These were already saved. And Both Jesus and Paul said it was done in memory of Christ.

Whether or not they were saved has nothing to do with the nature and meaning of the meal and whether or not it is the basis of a sacrament.

But, in addition, I just showed you, several times, that Christ himself said that it was more than a remembrance.
 
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Dave L

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Whether or not they were saved has nothing to do with the nature and meaning of the meal and whether or not it is the basis of a sacrament.

But, in addition, I just showed you, several times, that Christ himself said that it was more than a remembrance.
But it has no saving merit.
 
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