The Beast of Rev.12 & 3 World Ages

Davy · Apr 13, 2021

Most brethren are aware of the Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom having "... seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns". That beast is described in relation to the end of this world with the 42 months the "dragon" is to have power over the saints, and over all nations (Revelation 13:4-8). By that we definitely know that event did not happen back in history, it is still future to us, and set for the very end of this present world, because the "another beast" of that same Chapter, the final Antichrist, is still yet to come.

But back at Revelation 12:3-4, John was shown a 'previous' beast kingdom that existed when the "red dragon" drew a third of the stars to earth with him...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

The Lord shows us in Revelation 12:9 that the title of "dragon" is just another name for Satan himself. Satan is that "red dragon" that drew a third of the angels ("stars") to earth with him. But just when... did Satan do that?

That was back in the old world when Satan drew those third of the stars to earth; it was when he rebelled. Lord Jesus in Luke 10:18 said He beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. What old world?

There are three world ages shown in God's Word. We are in the second one, which is preserved to be destroyed eventually by fire (2 Peter 3). God's future Kingdom under His Son is set for the future new heavens and a new earth, which is the third world age yet to come. The time when Satan first sinned against God, coveting God's Throne, was back in the previous world age, a time even before Adam and Eve.

Back in that first world age is when Satan as that "red dragon" drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him. That was when the Revelation 12:3-4 events happened. It means Satan tried to setup a world 'beast' kingdom back then too.

Do you notice something different about the description of those two different beast systems mentioned in Rev.12 and Rev.13? You should, because there is a difference between them, other than they are described happening at different times...

Rev 12:3
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
KJV

Rev 13:1
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV

Their number of crowns is different. This isn't a mistake that they are different. God's Word at times does this little difference to see if we're paying attention. For example, when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms in Solomon's day, He chose Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim to be king over the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel. Solomon's son Rehoboam was king over Judah in the south at Jerusalem. See the two names -- Rehoboam, Jeroboam? Kind of similar aren't they? Easy for some to get mixed up too.

Some get the two beast systems of Rev.12 and Rev.13 mixed up too, treating them both as the same timing, when they are not the same timing.

So what's the weightier Message with those two separate beast kingdoms by Satan? Simply that, the latter beast kingdom of Revelation 13 is set for the end of this present world, just prior to our Lord Jesus' return. And it is going to be the same kind of thing Satan used when he first rebelled back in the first world age when he drew a third of the stars to earth with him. An ever greater Message from this is, that Satan has... to be the final Antichrist coming to this earth to do this, again, with that Rev.13 beast that will have ten crowns this next time.

Maria Billingsley · Apr 13, 2021

Davy said:
Most brethren are aware of the Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom having "... seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns". That beast is described in relation to the end of this world with the 42 months the "dragon" is to have power over the saints, and over all nations (Revelation 13:4-8). By that we definitely know that event did not happen back in history, it is still future to us, and set for the very end of this present world, because the "another beast" of that same Chapter, the final Antichrist, is still yet to come.

But back at Revelation 12:3-4, John was shown a 'previous' beast kingdom that existed when the "red dragon" drew a third of the stars to earth with him...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

The Lord shows us in Revelation 12:9 that the title of "dragon" is just another name for Satan himself. Satan is that "red dragon" that drew a third of the angels ("stars") to earth with him. But just when... did Satan do that?

That was back in the old world when Satan drew those third of the stars to earth; it was when he rebelled. Lord Jesus in Luke 10:18 said He beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. What old world?

There are three world ages shown in God's Word. We are in the second one, which is preserved to be destroyed eventually by fire (2 Peter 3). God's future Kingdom under His Son is set for the future new heavens and a new earth, which is the third world age yet to come. The time when Satan first sinned against God, coveting God's Throne, was back in the previous world age, a time even before Adam and Eve.

Back in that first world age is when Satan as that "red dragon" drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him. That was when the Revelation 12:3-4 events happened. It means Satan tried to setup a world 'beast' kingdom back then too.

Do you notice something different about the description of those two different beast systems mentioned in Rev.12 and Rev.13? You should, because there is a difference between them, other than they are described happening at different times...

Rev 12:3
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
KJV

Rev 13:1
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV

Their number of crowns is different. This isn't a mistake that they are different. God's Word at times does this little difference to see if we're paying attention. For example, when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms in Solomon's day, He chose Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim to be king over the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel. Solomon's son Rehoboam was king over Judah in the south at Jerusalem. See the two names -- Rehoboam, Jeroboam? Kind of similar aren't they? Easy for some to get mixed up too.

Some get the two beast systems of Rev.12 and Rev.13 mixed up too, treating them both as the same timing, when they are not the same timing.

So what's the weightier Message with those two separate beast kingdoms by Satan? Simply that, the latter beast kingdom of Revelation 13 is set for the end of this present world, just prior to our Lord Jesus' return. And it is going to be the same kind of thing Satan used when he first rebelled back in the first world age when he drew a third of the stars to earth with him. An ever greater Message from this is, that Satan has... to be the final Antichrist coming to this earth to do this, again, with that Rev.13 beast that will have ten crowns this next time.

Are you open to a different interpretation?

Davy · Apr 13, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
Are you open to a different interpretation?

No, not really since those Rev.12:3-4 verses are very explicit as to the time when Satan ("dragon") drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth with him, pointing directly to Satan's original rebellion against God. And it's easy to know that time did not involve the time of Christ's saints, because Lord Jesus had not come to die on the cross yet when Satan first rebelled, so there were no saints when Satan did that. Thus it's actually impossible to get the two times confused, as long as one keeps to the Scripture as written.

So why would someone who desires to keep God's Word as written want different interpretations?

tampasteve · Apr 13, 2021

Davy said:
So why would someone who desires to keep God's Word as written want different interpretations?

Because sometimes we are wrong without realizing it.

I am not saying that you are wrong here, but it is nearly always worthwhile to hear other interpretations. We may not come to an agreement, but at least we can foster understanding among different interpretations.

Having a different interpretation does not mean someone is not desiring to keep God's Word, it means they desire to keep it just as we do, but in a slightly different way.

tall73 · Apr 13, 2021

Davy said:
So why would someone who desires to keep God's Word as written want different interpretations?

There is a devotional section if you just want to post unchallenged interpretations.

Davy · Apr 13, 2021

tampasteve said:
Having a different interpretation does not mean someone is not desiring to keep God's Word, it means they desire to keep it just as we do, but in a slightly different way.

Then let's just admit that God's Word didn't come down to us, but that other... interpretations are just as valid? Do you not see the fallacy of that kind of thinking? The Scripture points to one interpretation when it is followed. Otherwise God in His Word has failed to communicate to His people.

Davy · Apr 13, 2021

tall73 said:
There is a devotional section if you just want to post unchallenged interpretations.

You obviously should be saying that to Maria, and not me. I'm not interested in posting many interpretations, which is really an ignorant idea, but definitely an idea those who are against the written Word might be for.

2 + 2 does actually equal 4, and not 5 (which is an example of other interpretations).

Davy · Apr 13, 2021

I find it unusual that so far, those commenting here on the OP, are not interested in discussing the Bible Scriptures I showed, but instead seem more interested in steering away from them.

Hammster · Apr 13, 2021

Davy said:
Most brethren are aware of the Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom having "... seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns". That beast is described in relation to the end of this world with the 42 months the "dragon" is to have power over the saints, and over all nations (Revelation 13:4-8). By that we definitely know that event did not happen back in history, it is still future to us, and set for the very end of this present world, because the "another beast" of that same Chapter, the final Antichrist, is still yet to come.

But back at Revelation 12:3-4, John was shown a 'previous' beast kingdom that existed when the "red dragon" drew a third of the stars to earth with him...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

The Lord shows us in Revelation 12:9 that the title of "dragon" is just another name for Satan himself. Satan is that "red dragon" that drew a third of the angels ("stars") to earth with him. But just when... did Satan do that?

That was back in the old world when Satan drew those third of the stars to earth; it was when he rebelled. Lord Jesus in Luke 10:18 said He beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. What old world?

There are three world ages shown in God's Word. We are in the second one, which is preserved to be destroyed eventually by fire (2 Peter 3). God's future Kingdom under His Son is set for the future new heavens and a new earth, which is the third world age yet to come. The time when Satan first sinned against God, coveting God's Throne, was back in the previous world age, a time even before Adam and Eve.

Back in that first world age is when Satan as that "red dragon" drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him. That was when the Revelation 12:3-4 events happened. It means Satan tried to setup a world 'beast' kingdom back then too.

Do you notice something different about the description of those two different beast systems mentioned in Rev.12 and Rev.13? You should, because there is a difference between them, other than they are described happening at different times...

Rev 12:3
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
KJV

Rev 13:1
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV

Their number of crowns is different. This isn't a mistake that they are different. God's Word at times does this little difference to see if we're paying attention. For example, when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms in Solomon's day, He chose Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim to be king over the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel. Solomon's son Rehoboam was king over Judah in the south at Jerusalem. See the two names -- Rehoboam, Jeroboam? Kind of similar aren't they? Easy for some to get mixed up too.

Some get the two beast systems of Rev.12 and Rev.13 mixed up too, treating them both as the same timing, when they are not the same timing.

So what's the weightier Message with those two separate beast kingdoms by Satan? Simply that, the latter beast kingdom of Revelation 13 is set for the end of this present world, just prior to our Lord Jesus' return. And it is going to be the same kind of thing Satan used when he first rebelled back in the first world age when he drew a third of the stars to earth with him. An ever greater Message from this is, that Satan has... to be the final Antichrist coming to this earth to do this, again, with that Rev.13 beast that will have ten crowns this next time.

Actually, it was Rome in the first century.

tall73 · Apr 13, 2021

Davy said:
You obviously should be saying that to Maria, and not me. I'm not interested in posting many interpretations, which is really an ignorant idea, but definitely an idea those who are against the written Word might be for.

2 + 2 does actually equal 4, and not 5 (which is an example of other interpretations).

I am saying it to you because you put it in an area for discussion, but do not want any discussion that does not agree with you.

We have no doubt that statements in the Bible have one correct and intended meaning. We just are not sure that every statement you make is synonymous with that one correct and intended meaning. And even Paul said that the Bereans were more noble because they examined the Scriptures to see whether what he said was true:

Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

And even if you were indicating a prophetic message we are told in Scripture to test the prophets.

That is why she asked if you want to discuss the details and are open to a different understanding.

If you do not want to, then you don't have to. She was asking to know whether it was worth the time responding in a thoughtful manner.

You indicated you were not open to it. Obviously participation in these forums is voluntary, so you don't have to consider other views. But then there is a section where you may post such things where discussion is not a key feature.

Once you post it in this section then people are going to discuss, because that is the purpose of this forum.

And making sure statements are in line with Scripture is in keeping with what the Scriptures say.

tall73 · Apr 13, 2021

Davy said:
I find it unusual that so far, those commenting here on the OP, are not interested in discussing the Bible Scriptures I showed, but instead seem more interested in steering away from them.

It might be because you said you were not open to any discussion that disagreed with you.

Mr. M · Apr 13, 2021

Davy said:
Then let's just admit that God's Word didn't come down to us, but that other... interpretations are just as valid? Do you not see the fallacy of that kind of thinking? The Scripture points to one interpretation when it is followed. Otherwise God in His Word has failed to communicate to His people.

Opposing viewpoints pertaining to imagery of Revelation is particularly risky.
Revelation 22:
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone
adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take
away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written
in this book.

Here are the Lord's instructions.
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and
keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

This reminds me of the response of Mary, mother of Jesus, to the revelations she was given.
Luke 2:19 But Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart.

trophy33 · Apr 13, 2021

Davy said:
I find it unusual that so far, those commenting here on the OP, are not interested in discussing the Bible Scriptures I showed, but instead seem more interested in steering away from them.

Because it seems you are not open for discussion. You think you have the truth and every other opinion about the Scriptures is automatically wrong.

Maria Billingsley · Apr 13, 2021

Davy said:
No, not really since those Rev.12:3-4 verses are very explicit as to the time when Satan ("dragon") drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth with him, pointing directly to Satan's original rebellion against God. And it's easy to know that time did not involve the time of Christ's saints, because Lord Jesus had not come to die on the cross yet when Satan first rebelled, so there were no saints when Satan did that. Thus it's actually impossible to get the two times confused, as long as one keeps to the Scripture as written.

So why would someone who desires to keep God's Word as written want different interpretations?

Because there happens to be four views of Revelation and this one you are publishing is one of the four.
Just in case you are interested the other three are, Historicist, Preterist, and Spiritual. The fourth is Futurist.
Be blessed.

tall73 · Apr 13, 2021

Davy said:
Most brethren are aware of the Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom having "... seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns". That beast is described in relation to the end of this world with the 42 months the "dragon" is to have power over the saints, and over all nations (Revelation 13:4-8). By that we definitely know that event did not happen back in history, it is still future to us, and set for the very end of this present world, because the "another beast" of that same Chapter, the final Antichrist, is still yet to come.

But back at Revelation 12:3-4, John was shown a 'previous' beast kingdom that existed when the "red dragon" drew a third of the stars to earth with him...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
KJV

The Lord shows us in Revelation 12:9 that the title of "dragon" is just another name for Satan himself. Satan is that "red dragon" that drew a third of the angels ("stars") to earth with him. But just when... did Satan do that?

That was back in the old world when Satan drew those third of the stars to earth; it was when he rebelled. Lord Jesus in Luke 10:18 said He beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. What old world?

So far, I agree that the dragon is identified as Satan. I also agree that Jesus refers to Satan being cast to the earth at a previous time.

And the two beasts of chapter 13 are distinct from the dragon in 12.

12 ends with:

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

And then we see:

Rev 13:1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

And then we have another beast:

Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon.
Rev 13:12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed.

So we have the dragon identified as Satan. Then we have two additional beasts.

tall73 · Apr 13, 2021

Davy said:
So what's the weightier Message with those two separate beast kingdoms by Satan? Simply that, the latter beast kingdom of Revelation 13 is set for the end of this present world, just prior to our Lord Jesus' return. And it is going to be the same kind of thing Satan used when he first rebelled back in the first world age when he drew a third of the stars to earth with him. An ever greater Message from this is, that Satan has... to be the final Antichrist coming to this earth to do this, again, with that Rev.13 beast that will have ten crowns this next time.

You have three entities mentioned. The Dragon, the beast from the sea and the beast from the earth.

This appears to be parallel to:

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

tall73 · Apr 13, 2021

Davy said:
The time when Satan first sinned against God, coveting God's Throne, was back in the previous world age, a time even before Adam and Eve.

Yes, the "ancient serpent" of Revelation 12 is a reference to the garden.

tall73 · Apr 13, 2021

Davy said:
Back in that first world age is when Satan as that "red dragon" drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him. That was when the Revelation 12:3-4 events happened. It means Satan tried to setup a world 'beast' kingdom back then too.

There may also be two casting down's of Satan referenced.

The previous you mentioned where Jesus refers to having seen him cast down. But Revelation 12 seems to show a more final defeat after relating the events of Jesus' incarnation and victory, and being caught up to His throne to reign.

At that time Satan is cast down again, but note the means:

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

We see in Job that Satan would still appear before God to make accusations:

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”
Job 1:8 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason?
Job 1:10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.”
Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

However, now the accuser of the bretheren no longer has an audience in heaven. After the cross and Jesus' sitting at the right hand of God there is no accusation that can stand, due to the blood of Christ. And those who follow Christ overcome the dragon by the blood, the word of their testimony, and their willingness to follow even to the point of death.

Now Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, however, the series of events listed in chapter 12, along with the emphasis on the removal of any accusation against the saints through the triumph of Christ who is now reigning seems to point to a decisive victory.

tall73 · Apr 13, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
Because there happens to be four views of Revelation and this one you are publishing is one of the four.
Just in case you are interested the other three are, Historicist, Preterist, and Spiritual. The fourth is Futurist.
Be blessed.

Yes, and I suppose there is also just take each statement as it reads without imposing a framework. Though in some respects that overlaps with the others at points.

We had an interesting year-long discussion of the whole book in our Sunday school class with all of these positions represented.

Davy · Apr 13, 2021

Hammster said:
Actually, it was Rome in the first century.

I disagree. No one came that fit the role of the "dragon", "another beast" of Rev.13. If there had been a ruler, secular or religious, that had the power to rain fire down from heaven in the sight of men, history would have recorded it.

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