What do you think about the sacraments?

Albion

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Paul tells us to hold true to the faith handed down "tradition we told youby word of mouth and letter". And that tradition is visible in ignatius to the smyrneans as a eucharist of the real flesh.
Paul's reference is simply to "traditions." He doesn't specify which.

So then people come along later, seize upon that word as if it were a blank check, and fill in with new and specific "traditions" of their choosing in order to justify doctrines that have no scriptural basis.
 
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Albion

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We see the appointing of successors first in the replacement of Judas by the choice of others.
Yes, there were twelve originally, and the number is significant, so the surviving Apostles chose a replacement. Nothing like that is operating when we talk about Apostolic Succession, an idea that grew up during the later first century AD. It's a good system, but it isn't proof of the Papacy or other such claims.
 
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Dave L

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Not if you look at who he said it to.
The apostles jointly and Peter alone.

Which of course brings in the question of tradition and authority.
We see in the NT that Jesus accepts the authority of "Moses Chair". But theres the problem. The reference to moses chair handed to joshua, judges etc, is in the "mishnah" which is tradition committed to paper. Paul tells us to hold true to the faith handed down "tradition we told youby word of mouth and letter". And that tradition is visible in ignatius to the smyrneans as a eucharist of the real flesh.
He was speaking to believers in this case. Check it out in context.
 
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Mountainmike

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Paul's reference is simply to "traditions." He doesn't specify which.

So then people come along later, seize upon that word as if it were a blank check, and fill in with new and specific "traditions" of their choosing in order to justify doctrines that have no scriptural basis.

The word is "paradosis". It means the faith handed down. Not the more colloquial contemporary meaning

Indeed the entire faith was passed by "handing down by word of mouth and letter"in the early church . There was no new testament. So it is hardly surprising Paul tells people to stay true to it.

It is clear in the case of the eucharist what all the early fathers think it was!. Whether or not there is a meta physical orthodoxy debate about nature of the transformation (early fathers said metaousiosis) - orthopractice confirms our Lord is really there, and it isnt valid unless presided by someone in succession.

I am not sure muddying waters is helpful in a discussion about sacraments.
 
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Mountainmike

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He was speaking to believers in this case. Check it out in context.
Matthew 16:19 uses the singular "you" whilst speaking to Peter. Which is somewhat inconvenient for your assertion! Check it out. Grammar.

There is a lot of grammatical nonsense used to try to avoid the blindingly obvious. That Jesus really did say on this Rock peter he would build his church. The alternatives are a grammatical nonsense. In aramaic the gender distinction does not exist. In Greek, the masculine form was used simply to give him a masculine name! If he was referring to other than Peter he would have said "that other rock" not "this rock" having called Peter Rock!
Matthew 11:25 says it all about those who try to twist scripture because they do not like what it says.

Sola scriptura adherents often miss the context by not looking at the context. The entire conversation took place on a rock platform at Banyas (old caesarea phillipi) which actually means Panyas...( referring to the false Roman God Pan - a play on the word bread) ...except the P is not an hebrew sound: all they have is B, at a temple of Pan where a stream was believed to be the entrance to the underworld. Jesus uses the words he did to distinguish his church from the temple of Pan! Fascinating
 
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Albion

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The word is "paradosis". It means the faith handed down.

Neither the verse in which Paul encourages his listeners to hold to the traditions (not tradition in the singular) they had followed nor Apostolic Succession are "the faith handed down."
 
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Mountainmike

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You can also mean Ya'll.
Y'all and all y'alls are american. (actually quite useful, english could do with some)
I assure you it is a singular. All languages have singulars. Peter alone. The one Jesus spoke to.
We also know it from the OT, where Jews looked for meaning. The "keys" were held by one person. "worn upon the shoulder" symbol of boss whilst the king was away
 
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Dave L

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Y'all and all y'alls are american. (actually quite useful, english could do with some)
I assure you it is a singular. All languages have singulars. Peter alone. The one Jesus spoke to.
We also know it from the OT, where Jews looked for meaning. The "keys" were held by one person. "worn upon the shoulder" symbol of boss whilst the king was away
"ye" is in the second person.
 
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Mountainmike

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Neither the verse in which Paul encourages his listeners to hold to the traditions (not tradition in the singular) they had followed nor Apostolic Succession are "the faith handed down."
Says you. Why is it then that the early fathers thought that was the meaning of "paradosis".
 
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Albion

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We also know it from the OT, where Jews looked for meaning. The "keys" were held by one person. "worn upon the shoulder" symbol of boss whilst the king was away
It's also the case that it's keys in the NT, but key in the OT. So, the comparison, highly fanciful in the first place, doesn't work anyway,.
 
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Dave L

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Sorry to bust your bubble...but go back to the greek in 16:19
"Soi" is you singular.
Not according to Logos. Besides, where do you see what you preach taking place in scripture besides Jesus at the Last Supper? They certainly did not evangelize with it. It was for memorial purposes only.
 
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Mountainmike

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That's no way to have a discussion.
It wasnt meant to be rude. However we have been round this circuit so many times. I am pointing out that is your opinion. Even the first apostolic fathers differ in their use of the word tradition. It means faith handed down. The use of the plural paradoseis is "teachings" "handings down". The verbs matter. The same verb used here (still a derivative of paradosis) "handing on" in this, is the verb used in 11:23 - "I handed on what jesus handed to me". The faith was handed down by word of mouth and letter.

Paul is not recorded getting a bump on the head when a new testament dropped out of the sky! The new testament did not exist at the time.
 
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Albion

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Even the first apostolic fathers differ in their use of the word tradition. It means faith handed down.
It means acts, ideas, or the like handed down, and doesn't refer in particular to religious doctrines.

Paul is not recorded getting a bump on the head when a new testament dropped out of the sky! The new testament did not exist at the time.
None of that means anything to this discussion. We cannot simply "pencil in" specific practices or beliefs for "traditions" when Paul speaks of the importance of keeping them. And we cannot simply assume that if some traditions are worth keeping, that we know what they are in the absence of any additional information. And we cannot build doctrine on the theory that there is something more important than the revealed word of God, Scripture.

To the extent that you want to argue that our Bible wasn't complete at the time Paul said this or that, we only know what he said thanks to Scripture! And the fact that the Bible as we know it wasn't completed and canonized for a few more centuries doesn't in any way mean that ONCE WE HAVE IT we are still supposed to go by some other and mysterious stream of ideas that, despite claims to the opposite, are not indicated in Scripture, are without continuity, are not "from the beginning," and never were believed throughout the extent of the Christian world.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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But......... only saved people with a pure heart can safely observe the practice according to Paul. Many die and are sick if they treat it as a means of salvation.
Right, which is a good indication that it is more than a memorial.
 
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HatGuy

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But......... only saved people with a pure heart can safely observe the practice according to Paul. Many die and are sick if they treat it as a means of salvation.
I think your paraphrase of the verse in question does not quite represent its intended meaning.
 
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