Are you dead to the Law?

Dkh587 said:

Christ said he didn’t come to take away the Law of God. I think you may be confused.

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Ephesians 2:15 shows Christ did abolish (already made inactive) the OT law.

Soyeong said:

Christ specifically said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and warned against relaxing the least part of it or teaching others to do the same, so fulfilling the law should be interpreted as abolishing any part of it. Jesus did fulfill the law by teaching how to correctly obey it by word and by example, which has nothing to do with causing it to no longer be in effect. Whenever you stop at a stoplight, you are fulfilling that traffic law by correctly obeying it, but that has nothing to do with causing it to no longer be in effect.

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Eph 2:15 "Having abolished (past tense - already done deal, abolished in the past) in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

AubreyM said:

Paul is saying we are dead to the law,

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There is a very important reason for Paul saying this.

In the context of Romans 7:1-6 Paul uses the institution of marriage to make a point between the OT and NT.

If a woman already has a husband and marries another then she is an adulteress being married to 2 husbands at the same time. BUT if her first husband is dead then she is free from the law to marry another.

Paul's point being a Chritian is married to Christ and His NT gospel. But if the Christian goes back to also keep the OT law of Moses then one is marrying himself to both Christ and Moses committing spiritual adultery parallel to the woman married to 2 husbands at the same time. Yet Christ took all the OT law out of the way manking men dead to that law so men can be free to marry Christ's NT law. That's the importance of Paul saying we are dead to the OT law so we will not be spiritual adulteres already married to Christ' and His NT gospel.

Actually the first husband represents the OT law and the second husband represents the NT law. When the woman was married to both husbands (OT & NT) she was committing adultery. But when the first husband was dead (OT law) she was then free to marry the second husband (NT law) therefore not in adultery.

Butterball1 said:

Eph 2:15 "Having abolished (past tense - already done deal, abolished in the past) in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

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Can you give any justification for why we should interpret that verse as referring to God's law?

Yes, we are dead to the Old Testament Law of Moses (the 613) as a whole or package deal.
So when Romans 7:4 says, “you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,” it is referring to the Old Law and not the New Testament commands that come from Jesus and His followers.
Proof?


The oldness of the letter is obviously referring to the Torah or the 613 Laws of Moses. We are to serve in newness of spirit and we don't have a license to sin because we are under God's grace.


Granted, the moral laws in the Old Covenant like “Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.” have carried over or they are repeated in the New Covenant (See: Matthew 19:17, Romans 13:8-10). But we are not under the things like the Saturday Sabbath, holy days, and dietary laws (Colossians 2:14-17), and we do not have to be circumcised anymore (Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 5:2).

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is referring to his life as a Pharisee who was trying to be saved by the Old Law alone without Jesus Christ and His grace. For Jesus is now our heavenly high priest and advocate that we can go to if we do happen to on rare occasion stumble (1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgiven us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). But this confessing of sin to Jesus is done with a godly sorrow (2 Corinthians 7:10), and with the intention of forsaking and overcoming such a sin (1 John 1:7) (2 Corinthians 7:1). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Hence, why we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). So it's not a walk in the park. We have to put on the whole armor of God so as to be able to stand against the schemes of the devil (See: Ephesians 6:10-18).

“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

AubreyM said:

Hello you and welcome.

According to Romans 7:4So that, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of the Christ, for your becoming another's, who out of the dead was raised up, that we might bear fruit to God;

Paul explains to the Romans and us today. That you brothers (believers - who are trusting in God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

You also were made dead to the law

Through the body of the Christ (Messiah) -> For you are becoming another's (Now being dead to the law -> moving into the body of Christ -> who out of the dead was raised up -> by the spirit given through the Lord Jesus Christ that is received from the Father, that we as believers may bear fruit.

Dead/The put to death -> 2289. thanatoó Usage: I put to death, subdue; pass: I am in danger of death, am dead to, am rid of, am parted from.

Law ->3551 nómos – law. 3551 (nómos) is used of: a) the Law (Scripture), with emphasis on the first five books of Scripture; or b) any system of religious thinking (theology), especially when nomos occurs without the Greek definite article.​

Were you also to made dead to the law being made alive by God through Christ Jesus becoming part of the body of believers?

What is our identity is it of the flesh?

Is it in Lord Christ Jesus by the Spirit through Faith with God and trusting in them ( A new creation in Christ)?

What do you think about these things?

Do you believe these things?

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Yes, I am dead to the law. Christians are not under the law. That is why Paul said, "To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law (Romans 5:13)." The law, any law, whether it is the Old Testament law, the law of our denomination, or the law we make up is not for us. Unfortunately, many Christians keep the law alive because they don't believe God has forgiven all of their sins. Therefore, they come up with their confession booths, short accounts, repetitive prayers, altar calls, misuse of verses like 1 John 1:9 and James 5:16, in order to resurrect the sin issue.

The law is for the lost (1 Timothy 1:8-11). The law puts us under a curse (Galatians 3:10). The law leads us to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25). It doesn't show us how to live as Christians. We live by faith (Galatians 3:11) through trusting in and depending on the indwelling Holy Spirit. Most people don't know how to live apart from flesh management. Therefore, they put confidence in their flesh. They believe that God's grace was His giving of the law and that we invoke all these bloodless sacrifices to keep ourselves clean when we fall short of obeying it; which is all the time. Therefore, they can never be dead to sin. It is a Dracula Theology as they keep bringing their dead sins back to life and insult the Spirit of grace and trample Jesus under their feet (Hebrews 10:29).

GraceBro said:

Yes, I am dead to the law. Christians are not under the law. That is why Paul said, "To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law (Romans 5:13)." The law, any law, whether it is the Old Testament law, the law of our denomination, or the law we make up is not for us. Unfortunately, many Christians keep the law alive because they don't believe God has forgiven all of their sins. Therefore, they come up with their confession booths, short accounts, repetitive prayers, altar calls, misuse of verses like 1 John 1:9 and James 5:16, in order to resurrect the sin issue.

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Nowhere does the Bible teach that you are forgiven of future sin (Thereby turning God's grace into a license for immorality - Jude 1:4). It does in fact teach that you have to confess of sin in order to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9). Peter even told Simon the sorcerer to repent or pray that his sin of trying to pay for the Spirit would be forgiven him (See: Acts of the Apostles 8:9-25). Some have tried to do backflip twists with verses like 1 John 1:9. But if a person were to read 1 John 1:9 plainly, it means what it says. Some believers have said 1 John 1:9 is dealing with Initial Salvation. But nowhere does the context support that conclusion because 1 John 2:1 says for the brethren to “sin not,” but if they do happen to stumble into sin, they have an advocate named Jesus Christ that they can go to. 1 John 2:1 does not sound like intial salvation. Some have also tried to undo 1 John 1:9 in what it says by saying that this confessing of sins is not dealing with a loss of forgiveness in regards to salvation, but only a break in fellowship. But again, the context does not support that idea because 1 John 1:7 clearly is referring to salvation. For if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Last I checked when I read the Bible, the cleansing blood of Jesus is dealing with salvation. 1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord, and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in him. Also, where in the Bible does it say that we can be forgiven by God and yet that is not referring to salvation?

As for James 5:16:

I am not in support of Catholicism and find it to be seriously unbiblical.

James 5:16 is dealing with the brother or sister who is sick on account of some kind of sin in their life, and they need the help of the brethren for this brother or sister to overcome this sin and to be healed. See 1 John 5:16-17. This is not referring to confession like at a Catholic church. This is seeking out other believers to pray for you so as to help you to overcome sin and possible sickness and illness that may come with that kind of sin. Being sick does not always happen. James 5:19-20 talks about how a believer can go prodigal (not be sick physically) but they are dead spiritually while they are prodigal, and they can be brought back to rededicating their life back to Jesus Christ and seeking forgiveness with Him (Also see the Parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-32).

You said:

The law is for the lost (1 Timothy 1:8-11).

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The Law here is in reference to the Old Law because 1 Timothy 1:8 says the Law is good if one uses it lawfully. Obviously all laws in the New Covenant are lawful, but not all Old Covenant commands apply so as to be used lawfully. God's laws are not exclusively for the lost. Just read Revelation 22.

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:14-15).

Butterball1 said:

From that verse, if the OT law has not been fulfilled, then every jot and tittle of the OT law is still in effect today, including but limited to animal sacrifices, purifications, pilgrimages to Jerusalem, etc, etc.

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Um...there is no Temple...

Butterball1 said:

By taking away the OT law, Christ took the curse of it away also.

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Really? So do you sin still? If there is no law, what need of grace do you have??? He became a curse for us...It was the curse that He took away...

Bible Highlighter said:

Romans 7:6 says, “But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.” ​

The oldness of the letter is obviously referring to the Torah or the 613 Laws of Moses. We are to serve in newness of spirit and we don't have a license to sin because we are under God's grace.

For Romans 6:1-2 says, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.”​

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It is the curse (sin is the transgression of the law and death is the wages of sin) that we are delivered from. He became a curse for us. If there is no law then there is no sin and no need for grace. Why do you need grace?

GraceBro said:

The law puts us under a curse (Galatians 3:10). The law leads us to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25).

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Because you sin (sin is the transgression of the law). The wages of sin are death. The curse is death. He became a curse for us.

AubreyM said:

Hello you and welcome.

According to Romans 7:4So that, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of the Christ, for your becoming another's, who out of the dead was raised up, that we might bear fruit to God;

Paul explains to the Romans and us today. That you brothers (believers - who are trusting in God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

You also were made dead to the law

Through the body of the Christ (Messiah) -> For you are becoming another's (Now being dead to the law -> moving into the body of Christ -> who out of the dead was raised up -> by the spirit given through the Lord Jesus Christ that is received from the Father, that we as believers may bear fruit.

Dead/The put to death -> 2289. thanatoó Usage: I put to death, subdue; pass: I am in danger of death, am dead to, am rid of, am parted from.

Law ->3551 nómos – law. 3551 (nómos) is used of: a) the Law (Scripture), with emphasis on the first five books of Scripture; or b) any system of religious thinking (theology), especially when nomos occurs without the Greek definite article.​

Were you also to made dead to the law being made alive by God through Christ Jesus becoming part of the body of believers?

What is our identity is it of the flesh?

Is it in Lord Christ Jesus by the Spirit through Faith with God and trusting in them ( A new creation in Christ)?

What do you think about these things?

Do you believe these things?

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Jesus emphasized some laws are important.

Mark 10:17 (WEB) As he was going out into the way, one ran to him, knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”

18 Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not give false testimony,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and mother.’” Exodus 20:12-16; Deuteronomy 5:16-20

There are other laws such as a woman was to be quarantined for seven days during her monthly period. There is no scientific basis for this, nor for Talmudic interpretations that things she touched would become unclean.

In Exodus the congregation stoned a man who was picking up sticks on the seventh day of the week. This law brought blood upon the executioners as stoning is murder. The punishment was too harsh. The law to do no work, in and of itself a burden. Much of Israel rests on Shabbat. If there is a war, they ignore this law.

There were all sorts of Talmudic laws based on laws of what animals were clean and unclean. Certain foods like pork were unclean. Corpses were unclean. There were many legal opinions about how this uncleanness spread and remedies such as bathing in stagnant polluted pools (mikvehs).

There were many religious dues and animal sacrifices required. The apostles therefore did not want to impose these on the Gentiles. This is recorded in Acts 15. Jesus spoke about important laws in his speech to the rich man who wanted to live forever. Jesus also recommended the rich man should give aid to the poor.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Really? So do you sin still? If there is no law, what need of grace do you have??? He became a curse for us...It was the curse that He took away...

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People today sin for they are transgressing Christ's NT law. I sin when I transgess Christ's NT law. People, including myself, do not sin for failing to keep/transgressing the OT law and its requirments of circumcision, animal sacrifices, purifications, pilgrimages to Jerusalem, etc, etc.
Deuteronomy 5:2-3 the OT law of Moses beginning with the 10 commandments was never given to anyone to keep but the Hebrew people. I am not suppose to nor required to keep a law that was never given to me to keep nor can one bind a law upon me that was never given to me to keep. Judaizing teachers in the NT were trying to bind the OT law upon Gentile converts, (Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2) bind a law upon the Gentiles that was not given to the Gentiles to keep and these Judiazers were condemned for doing so and the Gentiles that went along with these false Judiazing teachers were also condemned.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Um...there is no Temple...

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My point was that if the OT law has no been fulfilled, then per Matthew 5:18 then every jot and tittle of the OT law is still in place right now and binding upon men today. If every jot and tittle of the OT law is still in place then men today would be required to go to the Temple and pray the required number of times each day. Yet by Christ fulfilling the OT law, He brought that OT law to an end, He took all the OT law out of the way, removed every jot and tittle, whereby men are dead to that OT law therefore can be married to Christ's NT gospel.

Edit:

Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." This verse does NOT mean the OT law will be in effect as long as heaven and earth last. It means it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass than for the law to fail to do its purpose. Compare Matt 5:18 with Luke's account that says "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." (Luke 16:17)

Soyeong said:

Can you give any justification for why we should interpret that verse as referring to God's law?

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Ephesians 2:11-16 addresses Gentiles pointing out the OT law was only given to the Jews therefore leaving the Gentiles as "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world". The OT therefore put up a wall of partition between Jew and Gentile. Yet by Christ taking away the OT law and taking down that wall of separation created by the OT law, it meant the Gentiles (who 'were far off') are now made nigh by the blood of Christ, by the NT gospel. It's obvious the OT law is under consideration for it alienated Gentiles, made a separation between Jew and Gentile where the NT brought Jew and Gentile together as one in Christ. And it's obvious Christ would not take down His own NT when He died on the cross, the NT had not even been given, written down nor in effect at the time Christ died on the cross

AubreyM said:

Would agree that when a believer comes to Jesus Christ and listen to what he teaches, builds up the spirit with-in the believer to not do those things. If a believer does do whatever it is they read about that was talked and teaches by Christ, God deals with that person individually working on their heart.

They may feel and experience in their flesh of guilt, shame, or even sadness, however the believer should be encouraged and brought to realization that even in our mistakes we are forgiven, and the reason our flesh feel the shame, guilt, or sadness is because of us focusing on what we did wrong.

The only way to correct what was done wrong it to bring forth the problem to God, to help the person in their heart, by the spirit to overcome whatever has happened, be whatever it is the Christian has done.

To continue in their faith and looking towards the Lord Jesus Christ for reassurance that He still does love you, and forgives you, and that it is okay to make mistakes we will be doing it for the rest of our lives.

However by the spirit of Christ with-in that ability to be mean to a person, or whatever is changed into forgiving, looking towards peace, and being more kind, to others.

What do you think about these things?

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People may know stealing is against the law, even if they have not read the Bible. They tried to conceal their actions as they did not want to go to jail. To get God’s approval, one may need to do better. Some thieves got drunk spending the loot they stole. They were miserable as they staggered along. More miserable the next morning remembering stupid things they said the night before. They were slaves to gin and sin.

After I saw a cartoon like vision of the devil at the foot of my girlfriend’s bed, I somehow found a way to read Proverbs and realized fornication is wrong. It told me not to go to the house of an adulteress. Her path leads to death. I had been meeting other women in bars. Like the prodigal son, my paychecks were squandered. I could not support any more women. My relationship failed. At age 22 I hitchhiked to the Appalachian Trail nearly out of funds and started walking and bumming rides. By the end of the summer I was working in a town near Rocky Mtn. National Park. I was befriended by Seventh Day Adventists.

I tried to become Christian. I learned to be celibate. I do not catch a disease. I do not have paternity lawsuits or child support to pay. Some forms of birth control are not 100% effective. Celibacy is 100% effective.

Many times I turned to study the Bible, can remember a little. God can remember more and helped some people more than they know. I spent spare time in a seminary library where I was a guest. I flew to Israel to learn Bible geography. I stopped at Heathrow Airport in London to make a connecting flight. Israel is seven time zones away from New York. I was weary with jet lag before I picked up a rental car and drove to Tiberias and checked into a cheap hotel. I learned some about Jewish religious practices. God put Christians along my path. I stayed in Christian guest houses in Israel. Somehow I have property and investments. I remembered to read Christ’s “Sermon on the Mount” Matthew 5-7. A billionaire software engineer had memorized Sermon on the Mount in Sunday School before his success. God can empower people to do better, if they will obey.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

It is the curse (sin is the transgression of the law and death is the wages of sin) that we are delivered from. He became a curse for us. If there is no law then there is no sin and no need for grace. Why do you need grace?

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First, Jesus died for the sins for those believers in both covenants. Sin is obviously different between the covenants. But when Paul speaks of the “Law” generically, he is referring to...


Second, you need to understand and recognize “Provisional Atonement” verses when you come across them. John 1:29 says, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” Obviously the sins of the world are not taken away in the sense that all humans will be saved regardless of what they do (even if they reject the sacrifice of Jesus Christ). So this is a “Provisional Atonement” verse. The same is true for Galatians 3:13. It says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:” (Galatians 3:13). At the cross (Provisional Atonement): Christ has already redeemed us of the Old Law already. It's past tense. The Old Law (as a part of the Old Covenant) is no more because Jesus fulfilled it. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This would be because Jesus died for us. We have been redeemed (Provisonal Atonement) but ONLY if this atonement or redemption can only be personally applied to our lives if we apply the vehicle of faith to our lives. Not just any kind of faith. For a faith that is of the Old Covenant cannot work. A faith of our own imagining cannot work. Only the faith of the New Covenant (or from the pages of the New Testament) can we properly access the saving Provisional Atonement of Jesus Christ (i.e. what He did for us with His death, burial, and resurrection). Jesus can only be made a curse for us personally for our lives only if we apply faith (i.e. the correct kind of faith, or true biblical faith).

This faith that we must have in order to access the “Provisional Atonement” (Redemption done with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection) is applying the two aspects of salvation, which is...


“And by him all that believe are justified from all things,
from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 13:39).