Ron DeSantis refuses to play 'nice' with the 'left'

TLK Valentine said:

"now"?

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Good point.

So, in FL, companies cannot require vaccines for customers. I believe the order also refers to forcing employees to be vaccinated.

I guess that cruise companies might consider no longer stopping FL. This would be a huge cost to the FL economy. There are lots of other businesses that will need to consider their FL presence if they need to deal with such orders.

BTW, several (most) cruise companies will now require that all customers and all employees be vaccinated. I would expect that many companies will only want conventions or conferences in locations that allow companies the CHOICE to require that folks be vaccinated and/or masked.

This is free enterprise. FL can make what rules it wants, and companies will respond. The same is true in GA and TX.

mark46 said:

This is free enterprise. FL can make what rules it wants, and companies will respond. The same is true in GA and TX.

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Yes, but if the companies respond, that's "cancel culture," don't you know...

TLK Valentine said:

Yes, but if the companies respond, that's "cancel culture," don't you know...

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If every sane action by any given corporation is "cancel culture" then I am moving into the pro cancel culture bracket.

variant said:

If every sane action by any given corporation is "cancel culture" then I am moving into the pro cancel culture bracket.

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It is according to the GOP -- whether or not they are credible judges of "sane actions" is a question I'll leave for the philosophers.

NightHawkeye said:

Ironically, that's also what endeared the corporate media to Trump, at least early on. They feared Ted Cruz and others far more than Donald Trump. Little did they know that Donald Trump would turn out to be their worst nightmare.

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Worst nightmare or their biggest cash cow? I guess the real question who was playing who here?

variant said:

If every sane action by any given corporation is "cancel culture" then I am moving into the pro cancel culture bracket.

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Don’t you know, nobody’s allowed to disagree with or dislike anything no matter how repugnant they may find it. It’s no wonder the right hate cancel culture.

Halbhh said:

More definite and interesting:

Covid deaths in Florida significantly higher than official number

DeSantis has done some unfortunate braggadocio about handling the virus.

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The Method......
Did Florida measure pandemic deaths the same way other places have done? Show us the measurements in all other states using the same METHOD used in this study. This is the kind of stuff that spreads disinformation. I also see a bunch of news organizations picked up on this. That appears to be what media has done for years now. Use the exact same method on all other states and find the results. But before that is done this headline will make it out there for propoganda. Just like the immigration stats concerning illegal immigration surge. Measuring according to who was president, as opposed to policy making effecting the stats. It seems its always the same kinds of things.

ralliann said:

The Method......
Did Florida measure pandemic deaths the same way other places have done? Show us the measurements in all other states using the same METHOD used in this study. This is the kind of stuff that spreads disinformation. I also see a bunch of news organizations picked up on this. That appears to be what media has done for years now. Use the exact same method on all other states and find the results. But before that is done this headline will make it out there for propoganda. Just like the immigration stats concerning illegal immigration surge. Measuring according to who was president, as opposed to policy making effecting the stats. It seems its always the same kinds of things.

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I've written several posts months ago, myself, about the undercounting of covid deaths vs excess deaths in the U.S. (and in other nations also).

I assure you I was, and am, being quite honest in my posts.

It's information that is interesting and timely.

Halbhh said:

I've written several posts months ago, myself, about the undercounting of covid deaths vs excess deaths in the U.S. (and in other nations also).

I assure you I was, and am, being quite honest in my posts.

It's information that is interesting and timely.

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What I was asking was apples to apples, and oranges to oranges. 2 questions.
1. Did Florida use the same "method" as every other state?
2. Was the "method" of this study used on all other states?
If not the study can go in the trashcan concerning the differences applying to only one state. It's obvious on the face of it. Use a different measurement your going to get a different numbers.

ralliann said:

What I was asking was apples to apples, and oranges to oranges. 2 questions.
1. Did Florida use the same "method" as every other state?
2. Was the "method" of this study used on all other states?
If not the study can go in the trashcan concerning the differences applying to only one state. It's obvious on the face of it. Use a different measurement your going to get a different numbers.

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Didn’t the Governor of Florida fire a Department of Health employee who had access to raw data that she said was being manipulated by politicians to massage the numbers?
Wasn’t she also later arrested?

Pommer said:

Didn’t the Governor of Florida fire a Department of Health employee who had access to raw data that she said was being manipulated by politicians to massage the numbers?
Wasn’t she also later arrested?

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Again, I asked two questions concerning fairness and accuracy. Was florida's numbers the result of the same standard all other states were using? To use a different standard is obviously going to produce different results. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges. Real simple question.

ralliann said:

Again, I asked two questions concerning fairness and accuracy. Was florida's numbers the result of the same standard all other states were using? To use a different standard is obviously going to produce different results. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges. Real simple question.

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Right. Okay. I am not knowledgeable enough about this topic to give a reasoned and rational response, (yes, when has that stopped me before, BBTAIM), DeSaintis’ administration has tried to influence the scientists to produce “better” data.

ralliann said:

What I was asking was apples to apples, and oranges to oranges.

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That's a key reason -- to compare apples to apples -- to look carefully at excess deaths!

Otherwise you'd just have to guess at the accuracy of any given county or state, as to how good a job they do locally.

Since after all (as you will agree) the total death count is a hard factual number.

And it's very well known how many would be expected to die from heart disease, and from cancer, in a given year, increasing over time as the U.S. population ages....

Those are hard numbers, and can be projected well.

ralliann said:

2. Was the "method" of this study used on all other states?

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The main source I used in several other posts was the CDC (U.S. Centers for Disease Control, one of the foremost institutions in the world) for their analysis.

They account for the increase in expected deaths per year from the aging of the U.S. population, for example, a key methodological piece.

So, after accounting for the expected increase in deaths per year due to the aging of the U.S. population, the CDC found that excess deaths still were considerably higher than the official reported count from states for covid 19 after taking out other known sources of deaths.

Please see this CDC summary here for further details on the methodology:
Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19

GoldenBoy89 said:

Don’t you know, nobody’s allowed to disagree with or dislike anything no matter how repugnant they may find it. It’s no wonder the right hate cancel culture.

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Of course -- because that would mean that repugnant actions would have consequences...

Having consequences means having to assume personal responsibility -- and personal responsibility is what the right truly hates.

Pommer said:

Right. Okay. I am not knowledgeable enough about this topic to give a reasoned and rational response, (yes, when has that stopped me before, BBTAIM),

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Neither am I, nor are most reading the headline. That is what I take issue with. Many times media has done stuff like this, and it is misleading.

Pommer said:

DeSaintis’ administration has tried to influence the scientists to produce “better” data.

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I'm not knowledgeable about this either. But I wonder if that is why this was published? Truly I do wonder if that isn't the reason for it. To give a seeming boost to an accuser. It just never ends. I would think to do the very same method on other states might give a clue though. If other states end up with the same number percentage then there is no difference in actuality between Florida and anyone else between the two methods. However as far as fudging the numbers right out of the gate? A topic for another thread.

Halbhh said:

That's a key reason -- to compare apples to apples -- to look carefully at excess deaths!

Otherwise you'd just have to guess at the accuracy of any given county or state, as to how good a job they do locally.

Since after all (as you will agree) the total death count is a hard factual number.

And it's very well known how many would be expected to die from heart disease, and from cancer, in a given year, increasing over time as the U.S. population ages....

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Right here we have a difference between states. "Ageing population of the U.S."..... Now look at the percentage of older persons per capita in Florida. Florida and Arizona top the list. How much is Florida off between methods? How much are other states off between the two methods? I do not know that. I do not even know if the aging population of Florida itself was even a factor in their report. Already there is a potential shift in this conversation. Let's not lose sight of the fact of the issue first presented. The difference between the two stats, making Florida's governor a liar. Not the actual amount.

ralliann said:

Right here we have a difference between states. "Ageing populations"..... Now look at the percentage of older persons per capita. Florida and Arizona top the list. How much is Florida off between methods? How much are other states off between the two methods? I do not know that. I do not even know if the aging population of Florida itself was even a factor in their report.

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A good and important question, worth an effort to look at --

From the Florida analysis:

Methods. Using seasonal autoregressive integrated moving average time-series modeling and historical mortality trends in Florida, we forecasted monthly deaths from January to September of 2020 in the absence of the pandemic. We compared estimated deaths with monthly recorded total deaths (i.e., all deaths regardless of cause) during the COVID-19 pandemic and deaths only from COVID-19 to measure excess deaths in Florida.
The American Journal of Public Health (AJPH) from the American Public Health Association (APHA) publications

Before you go on to read what's next, the main answer to your good question is in this above. They looked at the trend over years of time, thus naturally accounting for the aging of the Florida population over time, and also took into account seasonality (how flu deaths occur by season, etc.).

Next:

Results. Our results suggest that Florida experienced 19 241 (15.5%) excess deaths above historical trends from March to September 2020, including 14 317 COVID-19 deaths and an additional 4924 all-cause, excluding COVID-19, deaths in that period.

Conclusions. Total deaths are significantly higher than historical trends in Florida even when accounting for COVID-19–related deaths. The impact of COVID-19 on mortality is significantly greater than the official COVID-19 data suggest.

Halbhh said:

A good and important question, worth an effort to look at --

From the Florida analysis:

Methods. Using seasonal autoregressive integrated moving average time-series modeling and historical mortality trends in Florida, we forecasted monthly deaths from January to September of 2020 in the absence of the pandemic. We compared estimated deaths with monthly recorded total deaths (i.e., all deaths regardless of cause) during the COVID-19 pandemic and deaths only from COVID-19 to measure excess deaths in Florida.
The American Journal of Public Health (AJPH) from the American Public Health Association (APHA) publications

Before you go on to read what's next, the main answer to your good question is in this above. They looked at the trend over years of time, thus naturally accounting for the aging of the Florida population over time, and also took into account seasonality (how flu deaths occur by season, etc.).

Next:

Results. Our results suggest that Florida experienced 19 241 (15.5%) excess deaths above historical trends from March to September 2020, including 14 317 COVID-19 deaths and an additional 4924 all-cause, excluding COVID-19, deaths in that period.

Conclusions. Total deaths are significantly higher than historical trends in Florida even when accounting for COVID-19–related deaths. The impact of COVID-19 on mortality is significantly greater than the official COVID-19 data suggest.

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Ok, now what (percentage) is found with other states with this method or model? And what is the difference between the the numbers they used in their own method? That is what I was asking. Remember this entire thing began with a charge on DeSantis lying or fudging. Please do not lose sight of that issue here. I want to know how this very same model turns out for all other states. If discrepancy makes for a lie, then are all states lying? Or would you say it is the difference between the two models?

Hank77 said:

DeSantis should play nice with the "left" seeing many Democrats have come out to defend him and provide proof the 60 Minutes journalist was either flat-out lying or hadn't done her homework. Personally, I believe she was lying/pure propaganda.

There is another thread on this topic.

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Agreed, broad-brushing types of rhetoric would be a huge mistake on his part.

It's a major strategic oversight (for any politician, especially in states where members of a party may not conform to typical "national stereotypes" of what a party member is) to try to link that to Democrats as a whole.

A lot of Democrats make the same mistake.

Not every Democrat is a "Portland far-left democrat" much like not every Republican is a "rural Alabama far right republican".

...and with the influx of a lot of Californians and NYC people seeking to plant roots in other states (many of which being red states), a lot of the these republican governors are going to need to form public images that somewhat resemble moderation if they want to keep their jobs in upcoming elections.

I've spent a lot of time in both Texas and Florida, many of the people in those states (who identify with both parties) don't neatly fit into either box that national narratives say they should.

If you go to Austin or Dallas, it's not uncommon to find people who have progressive views on LGBT issues, but conservative views on guns and taxes...

It still sticks out vividly in my mind, my buddy moved to Austin some years back (hindsight is 20/20, I could be making a lot more $$$ right now had I taken a chance on the upstart tech company he went to work for, but I digress), I went down there to visit, and while eating eating BBQ at an outdoor restaurant (where the guy running the smoker was a white guy wearing a Bob Marley shirt with dreadlocks, and a "legalize it" sticker on his shirt), got to witness a march down the street from a group called 'Pink Pistols' - a gay gun rights organization.

That was my first major eye-opener that not everyone fits neatly into to the two pre-approved boxes that society dictates.

And I have relatives who live in the Tampa area who are socially liberal on most issues, but actually liked DeSantis due to him reopening the economy and allowing them to work and make money...however, that could easily change if he starts bashing them with a "guilt by association" style of rhetoric.