Pope Francis Tries to Rehabilitate Judas, Part II: Mercy for Judas the Betrayer, But Not for Trump..

Michie

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...the Wall Builder

In Part One of this column, I wrote about Pope Francis’ use of the Vatican’s own newspaper to plant in believers’ minds the following ideas:

  1. That the apostle Judas might have been saved, despite Jesus’ teaching that it would have been “better for that man if he had never been born.” (Matt. 26: 24)
  2. That all human souls might finally be saved, despite Jesus’ repeated descriptions of Hell as having inhabitants. Our Lord was just bluffing there, apparently.
Faithful Christians Are Pharisees
There wasn’t space for a third point. Francis used his account of Judas’ “repentance” to get in a dig at traditional Christians, who cling to things like … the words of Jesus, the teachings of the Church, even the dictates of reason and Natural Law. Francis said in a 2017 interview:

Judas is a difficult character to understand; there have been so many interpretations of his personality. In the end, however, when he sees what he has done, he turns to the ‘righteous,’ to the priests: ‘I have sinned: I handed over an innocent man to be killed.’ They answer him: ‘What does that matter to us? That’s your affair.’ (Matthew 27:3-10) Then he goes away with that guilt that suffocates him.

Here Francis speaks of the “righteous” Pharisees and Sadducees sarcastically. He used similar language in the debate over whether the Catholic church should continue its apostolic practice of rejecting divorce and remarriage. (At least in principle — leave aside the suppurating scandal of easy annulments, which Francis has made even easier to get, when either spouse wishes for one.) Francis repeatedly described as Pharisees, or “doctors of the law,” Catholic theologians who wished to cling to the literal reading of Jesus’ own words regarding divorce.

Continued below.
Pope Francis Tries to Rehabilitate Judas, Part II: Mercy for Judas the Betrayer, But Not for Trump the Wall Builder | The Stream
 

Joyous Song

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...the Wall Builder

In Part One of this column, I wrote about Pope Francis’ use of the Vatican’s own newspaper to plant in believers’ minds the following ideas:




    • That the apostle Judas might have been saved, despite Jesus’ teaching that it would have been “better for that man if he had never been born.” (Matt. 26: 24)
    • That all human souls might finally be saved, despite Jesus’ repeated descriptions of Hell as having inhabitants. Our Lord was just bluffing there, apparently.
Faithful Christians Are Pharisees
There wasn’t space for a third point. Francis used his account of Judas’ “repentance” to get in a dig at traditional Christians, who cling to things like … the words of Jesus, the teachings of the Church, even the dictates of reason and Natural Law. Francis said in a 2017 interview:

Judas is a difficult character to understand; there have been so many interpretations of his personality. In the end, however, when he sees what he has done, he turns to the ‘righteous,’ to the priests: ‘I have sinned: I handed over an innocent man to be killed.’ They answer him: ‘What does that matter to us? That’s your affair.’ (Matthew 27:3-10) Then he goes away with that guilt that suffocates him.

Here Francis speaks of the “righteous” Pharisees and Sadducees sarcastically. He used similar language in the debate over whether the Catholic church should continue its apostolic practice of rejecting divorce and remarriage. (At least in principle — leave aside the suppurating scandal of easy annulments, which Francis has made even easier to get, when either spouse wishes for one.) Francis repeatedly described as Pharisees, or “doctors of the law,” Catholic theologians who wished to cling to the literal reading of Jesus’ own words regarding divorce.

Continued below.
Pope Francis Tries to Rehabilitate Judas, Part II: Mercy for Judas the Betrayer, But Not for Trump the Wall Builder | The Stream

JS: I see Pope Francis as siding on Mercy rather than on Law. The Roman Catholic church has sided too often on LAW ignoring they are themselves sinners (sex scandal anyone?). Christ was merciful and often people fail to go for annulment because of cost not because they have no case.

Thus we need to be careful in keeping the Laws of the Church not to take up the self righteous robes of the pharisees. We should judge the choir who sins harshly, and the sinner with mercy. I maybe wrong but this is what I see in the behavior of Pope Francis, slow to judge sinners and hard with legalistic Catholic leaders.
 
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Joyous Song

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Years ago as a Hebrew I had a dream saying I should pray for Hitler. I remember being very angry with the L-rd when He told me to do this but little by little I realized I had to pray for him, I had to forgive him. It wasn't easy, it hasn't been but little by little I become more forgiving of sinners.

So maybe Judas is Pope Francis' Hitler, a man deserving of damnation who might find mercy, simply because he might seek it in purgatory. Yet for those in purgatory to be healed they need our prayers. So perhaps before pope Francis Judas was damned because no one prayed for him, and not at least one person is. Like I pray for Hitler.
 
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chevyontheriver

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...the Wall Builder

In Part One of this column, I wrote about Pope Francis’ use of the Vatican’s own newspaper to plant in believers’ minds the following ideas:




    • That the apostle Judas might have been saved, despite Jesus’ teaching that it would have been “better for that man if he had never been born.” (Matt. 26: 24)
    • That all human souls might finally be saved, despite Jesus’ repeated descriptions of Hell as having inhabitants. Our Lord was just bluffing there, apparently.
Faithful Christians Are Pharisees
There wasn’t space for a third point. Francis used his account of Judas’ “repentance” to get in a dig at traditional Christians, who cling to things like … the words of Jesus, the teachings of the Church, even the dictates of reason and Natural Law. Francis said in a 2017 interview:

Judas is a difficult character to understand; there have been so many interpretations of his personality. In the end, however, when he sees what he has done, he turns to the ‘righteous,’ to the priests: ‘I have sinned: I handed over an innocent man to be killed.’ They answer him: ‘What does that matter to us? That’s your affair.’ (Matthew 27:3-10) Then he goes away with that guilt that suffocates him.

Here Francis speaks of the “righteous” Pharisees and Sadducees sarcastically. He used similar language in the debate over whether the Catholic church should continue its apostolic practice of rejecting divorce and remarriage. (At least in principle — leave aside the suppurating scandal of easy annulments, which Francis has made even easier to get, when either spouse wishes for one.) Francis repeatedly described as Pharisees, or “doctors of the law,” Catholic theologians who wished to cling to the literal reading of Jesus’ own words regarding divorce.

Continued below.
Pope Francis Tries to Rehabilitate Judas, Part II: Mercy for Judas the Betrayer, But Not for Trump the Wall Builder | The Stream
The people who want to 'rehabilitate' Judas have the motive of being able to excuse each and every betrayal of the Lord in their own lives. If Judas is OK then whatever they do will be OK as well. Sin doesn't matter. We all get to engage in every proclivity we want to. Everything goes. Never mind the words of Jesus, it is better for us if we do what we want because we are all guaranteed heaven. I can debauch boys or girls or both and it's just me being me. I am assured that if Judas is saved than so am I.

NOT.
 
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Joyous Song

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The people who want to 'rehabilitate' Judas have the motive of being able to excuse each and every betrayal of the Lord in their own lives. If Judas is OK then whatever they do will be OK as well. Sin doesn't matter. We all get to engage in every proclivity we want to. Everything goes. Never mind the words of Jesus, it is better for us if we do what we want because we are all guaranteed heaven. I can debauch boys or girls or both and it's just me being me. I am assured that if Judas is saved than so am I.

NOT.

Chevyotheriver: The people who want to ‘rehabilitate’ Judas have the motive of being able to excuse each and every betrayal of the L-rd in their own lives. If Judas is OK then whatever they do will be OK as well. Sin doesn’t matter. We all get to engage in every proclivity we want to. Everything goes. Never mind the words of Jesus, it is better for us if we do what we want because we are all guaranteed heaven. I can debauch boys and girls or both and its just me being me, I assured that if Judas is saved then so am I.

NOT


JS: the only person who without sin was crucified for it! Indeed when an unholy sinner was brought before Him He said, “Let he who has no sin cast the first stone”. Did HE cast a stone upon her? NO, he told her she was forgiven and to go forth and sin no more! We ought to do the same.

Indeed He said, “Judge not least Thee be judged”, and spoke of the unforgiving ungrateful servant. Why was that servant condemned? Because he would not forgive his fellow servant yet expect forgiveness for his own sins! Indeed He told us to pray: Forgive us OUR trespasses as we forgive those who trespasses US! Thus by being forgiving we can indeed cover a multitude of sins.

Does this cause those forgiving to sin as you imply in your response? 1) if so He would never have told us to forgive in the first place. 2) the Beatitudes say: Blessed are the merciful for they shall find mercy, and this is before this blessing is humility, and after comes purity of heart. Note a forgiving nature comes forth from humility brings holiness not sinfulness.

Also its only after one mourns their sins that they find it in their hears true humility that grows into a forgiving heart. Then forgiveness comes easily, thus I forgive you for your harsh words. I suspect you did not understand what you were saying and if my explanation was sufficient, which I pray it is you now better understand the source of true forgiving heart.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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I agree with forgiveness and not being judgmental but we cannot deny the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is anyone here denying the validity of scripture?


“The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of an is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” – Jesus Christ (Mark 14.16)
 
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narnia59

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I agree with forgiveness and not being judgmental but we cannot deny the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is anyone here denying the validity of scripture?
There is at least one alternate interpretation of that verse that I've seen. The Douay-Rheims renders this verse this way -- "And the Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed. It were better for him, if that man had not been born."

The first "him" is referring to Christ. It's assumed the second "him" is referring to Judas, but as Christ is referring to himself in the 3rd person here, the possibility exists that the second "him" is also referring to Christ and Christ is saying it would have been better for Christ if Judas had not been born. In that scenario it would not be seen so much as a theological statement but rather in the spirit of Christ's agony and asking the Father to remove the cup from him.

I know historically in the Church it has not been interpreted in that way at all, and I'm not claiming that is a better view of the verse. I'm just pointing out that as with much of Scripture, depending on the translation it can sometimes not be as clear as it may seem.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Chevyotheriver: The people who want to ‘rehabilitate’ Judas have the motive of being able to excuse each and every betrayal of the L-rd in their own lives. If Judas is OK then whatever they do will be OK as well. Sin doesn’t matter. We all get to engage in every proclivity we want to. Everything goes. Never mind the words of Jesus, it is better for us if we do what we want because we are all guaranteed heaven. I can debauch boys and girls or both and its just me being me, I assured that if Judas is saved then so am I.

NOT


JS: the only person who without sin was crucified for it! Indeed when an unholy sinner was brought before Him He said, “Let he who has no sin cast the first stone”. Did HE cast a stone upon her? NO, he told her she was forgiven and to go forth and sin no more! We ought to do the same.

Indeed He said, “Judge not least Thee be judged”, and spoke of the unforgiving ungrateful servant. Why was that servant condemned? Because he would not forgive his fellow servant yet expect forgiveness for his own sins! Indeed He told us to pray: Forgive us OUR trespasses as we forgive those who trespasses US! Thus by being forgiving we can indeed cover a multitude of sins.

Does this cause those forgiving to sin as you imply in your response? 1) if so He would never have told us to forgive in the first place. 2) the Beatitudes say: Blessed are the merciful for they shall find mercy, and this is before this blessing is humility, and after comes purity of heart. Note a forgiving nature comes forth from humility brings holiness not sinfulness.

Also its only after one mourns their sins that they find it in their hears true humility that grows into a forgiving heart. Then forgiveness comes easily, thus I forgive you for your harsh words. I suspect you did not understand what you were saying and if my explanation was sufficient, which I pray it is you now better understand the source of true forgiving heart.
I am sorry that I have not appreciated St. Judas adequately for you.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Jesuits doing Jesuits things.
I see it more as an attempt to resolve a guilty conscience among some powerful clerics. Most of us know when we do wrong. The normal Catholic way to fix a guilty conscience is to repent and confess the thing one is guilty of. But if one can pretend that God doesn't care about what I did because God forgave even Judas ... means I can do anything I want, any nasty thing, and I'm still saved. It turns a guilty conscience into just a bad feeling. I can be a priest or bishop or cardinal debauching young adults. It's OK. OK because it all works out in the end. I don't have to confess it or face any consequences. God saves me anyway. No need to give up any vices. No need for a moral code.

That goes way beyond modern Jesuit. It goes straight to clericalism. And if it spreads too much farther into the laity we can, wait! Isn't this a brand of Moralistic Therapeutic Deism? I wonder.
 
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narnia59

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I see it more as an attempt to resolve a guilty conscience among some powerful clerics. Most of us know when we do wrong. The normal Catholic way to fix a guilty conscience is to repent and confess the thing one is guilty of. But if one can pretend that God doesn't care about what I did because God forgave even Judas ... means I can do anything I want, any nasty thing, and I'm still saved. It turns a guilty conscience into just a bad feeling. I can be a priest or bishop or cardinal debauching young adults. It's OK. OK because it all works out in the end. I don't have to confess it or face any consequences. God saves me anyway. No need to give up any vices. No need for a moral code.

That goes way beyond modern Jesuit. It goes straight to clericalism. And if it spreads too much farther into the laity we can, wait! Isn't this a brand of Moralistic Therapeutic Deism? I wonder.
I think a great majority of the laity is already on the road to thinking you can do anything and it won't matter. I don't know that it started with the clergy or vice versa. But few Catholics consider there is mortal sin anymore. I'm not sure at all it is the result of clericalism though.

I don't have a need to defend anything either way about Judas. I do think it's important to remember that he did repent of the sin of betraying Christ. But when he couldn't "undo" it, he despaired and committed suicide.

And right or wrong, suicide is seen through a different lens at this point of time than it has been seen historically in the Church. It's still viewed as a grave sin, but there are conditions which can indeed make it forgiveable. We no longer deny people a Catholic funeral in that situation. We will allow them to be buried in consecrated ground. So there has been a general softening towards the disposition of those who commit suicide over the years and perhaps the Pope's view is a reflection of that.
 
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narnia59

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Two interesting quotes:

From Pope Benedict XVI:

What is more, it darkens the mystery around his eternal fate, knowing that Judas "repented and brought back the 30 pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, "I have sinned in betraying innocent blood'" (Mt 27: 3-4). Even though he went to hang himself (cf. Mt 27: 5), it is not up to us to judge his gesture, substituting ourselves for the infinitely merciful and just God.

General Audience of 18 October 2006: Judas and Matthias | BENEDICT XVI

And from St. John Paul II in Crossing the Threshold of Hope:

And yet, the words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel He speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Mt 25:46). Who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard. This is a mystery, truly inscrutable, which embraces the holiness of God and the conscience of man. The silence of the Church is, therefore, the only appropriate position for Christian faith. Even when Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, “It would be better for that man if he had never been born” (Mt 26:24), His words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation.

Very similar thoughts from our two previous Holy Fathers. I don't remember them causing the same kind of controversy however.

It's just an opinion but I think Pope Francis hits a lot of nerves with his continued focus on the poor of the world so people seek anything they can to discredit him rather than allow their conscience to be "pricked." Perhaps the need for the headline to include Trump raises up that thought in me.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I think a great majority of the laity is already on the road to thinking you can do anything and it won't matter. I don't know that it started with the clergy or vice versa. But few Catholics consider there is mortal sin anymore. I'm not sure at all it is the result of clericalism though.
Maybe not, but I'm looking at it from the angle that clerics guilty of grave sin and unwilling to repent of it are able to excuse themselves by saying it doesn't really matter because even the treason of Judas couldn't keep him out of heaven. I'm not so sure God looks kindly on clerics doing things to children. Something about a millstone comes to mind. Jesus indicates there are millstones. None of us should be lining up for a millstone, clerical or lay. Especially not denying that there are millstones.
I don't have a need to defend anything either way about Judas. I do think it's important to remember that he did repent of the sin of betraying Christ. But when he couldn't "undo" it, he despaired and committed suicide.
There was the comment about how it would be better for Judas not to have been born. Something Jesus said. We don't positively say any particular person is in hell. But it doesn't look good for Judas.
And right or wrong, suicide is seen through a different lens at this point of time than it has been seen historically in the Church. It's still viewed as a grave sin, but there are conditions which can indeed make it forgiveable. We no longer deny people a Catholic funeral in that situation. We will allow them to be buried in consecrated ground. So there has been a general softening towards the disposition of those who commit suicide over the years and perhaps the Pope's view is a reflection of that.
I get it that someone offing himself might not be responsible for his actions. And thus we cannot say such a person is doomed. It's basically above our pay grade to say. But what I am hearing is 'everybody's saved'. Great if it were true. But what if it isn't true? Somebody's getting lied to. Somebody who might otherwise hear a call to repentance is told that not only all dogs go to heaven but all formerly damnable sinners go to heaven with or without repentance. Hell is empty. I can do anything I want. Clerics can do as they please with consenting or non-consenting adults or children and so can I. Because we all get the trophy at the end of the day.
 
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chevyontheriver

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It's just an opinion but I think Pope Francis hits a lot of nerves with his continued focus on the poor of the world so people seek anything they can to discredit him rather than allow their conscience to be "pricked." Perhaps the need for the headline to include Trump raises up that thought in me.
I don't mind what pope Francis says to focus on the poor. Not a problem for me. If it were only that I would think of him as a living saint.
 
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narnia59

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Maybe not, but I'm looking at it from the angle that clerics guilty of grave sin and unwilling to repent of it are able to excuse themselves by saying it doesn't really matter because even the treason of Judas couldn't keep him out of heaven. I'm not so sure God looks kindly on clerics doing things to children. Something about a millstone comes to mind. Jesus indicates there are millstones. None of us should be lining up for a millstone, clerical or lay. Especially not denying that there are millstones.

There was the comment about how it would be better for Judas not to have been born. Something Jesus said. We don't positively say any particular person is in hell. But it doesn't look good for Judas.

I get it that someone offing himself might not be responsible for his actions. And thus we cannot say such a person is doomed. It's basically above our pay grade to say. But what I am hearing is 'everybody's saved'. Great if it were true. But what if it isn't true? Somebody's getting lied to. Somebody who might otherwise hear a call to repentance is told that not only all dogs go to heaven but all formerly damnable sinners go to heaven with or without repentance. Hell is empty. I can do anything I want. Clerics can do as they please with consenting or non-consenting adults or children and so can I. Because we all get the trophy at the end of the day.
No argument from me on the idea that we've lost a sense of sin and its consequences. I'm just not so willing to lay it all at the feet of the clergy. People seem to want clergy who are strong and willing to speak out and ruffle feathers as long as they get to choose which sins the focus is on. And those sins they want highlighted vary depending on their political views most often. As do the sins they get bent out of shape about when they are mentioned. At least that's been my experience.

I don't think God looks kindly on anyone doing such things to children, and those millstones won't be for clergy only. If you remove all the evils done to children by clerics from the world you've only touched a fraction of the evil.
 
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narnia59

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I don't mind what pope Francis says to focus on the poor. Not a problem for me. If it were only that I would think of him as a living saint.
It's just a sense I have that is at the root of what is a problem for a lot of people, which is why they have to find ways to discredit him. But again that is just an opinion.

The man is laser focused on that topic. I think it frustrates him that he can't direct us all to be. And that focus at the expense of other things has definitely allowed some to run and play loose. The left interprets his lack of focus on topics they want to 'progress' as a chink in the armor of the Church and an opening for them. Rather I think it's because he's so intent on trying to draw attention to the plight of so many in this world who need help his focus is so narrow. At the same time, it seems when it's necessary and official, he steps up and does the right thing. As with the CDF document that said same sex unions cannot be blessed.

The "right" -- I have a harder time figuring that out. The onslaught is relentless and most often baseless and steeped in inuendo and playing loosely with facts. There is an incessant need to discredit him. So they find something like what he's said about Judas (which aligns with both of the previous two popes) and make a federal case out of it, and pretty much convince a lot of people he's taking the Church to hell. The only sense I have made out of it is they don't like the extreme focus on the poor, but that again is just an opinion.
 
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chevyontheriver

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It's just a sense I have that is at the root of what is a problem for a lot of people, which is why they have to find ways to discredit him. But again that is just an opinion.

The man is laser focused on that topic. I think it frustrates him that he can't direct us all to be. And that focus at the expense of other things has definitely allowed some to run and play loose. The left interprets his lack of focus on topics they want to 'progress' as a chink in the armor of the Church and an opening for them. Rather I think it's because he's so intent on trying to draw attention to the plight of so many in this world who need help his focus is so narrow. At the same time, it seems when it's necessary and official, he steps up and does the right thing. As with the CDF document that said same sex unions cannot be blessed.

The "right" -- I have a harder time figuring that out. The onslaught is relentless and most often baseless and steeped in inuendo and playing loosely with facts. There is an incessant need to discredit him. So they find something like what he's said about Judas (which aligns with both of the previous two popes) and make a federal case out of it, and pretty much convince a lot of people he's taking the Church to hell. The only sense I have made out of it is they don't like the extreme focus on the poor, but that again is just an opinion.
But that's all framing things as political left and right. Which is actually an incongruent way look at the faith. And it minimizes the real problem of the very strange things pope Francis has said that do not fit into a political left-right axis. Those things are not minor issues picked up by political right-wingers in the Church as ammo to suppress a leftist pope.

I think the pope sometimes does the right thing, is sometimes incoherent, and sometimes is flat out wrong in his personal words. He's a very mixed bag. Great that he's for the poor, as were his predecessors. Anyway, I don't see him challenged because of his attitudes or actions on the part of the poor. I see him challenged because of the flux we are seeing in sexual matters. And that flux takes away from a focus on the poor. Would that pope Francis were laser focused on that issue.
 
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No argument from me on the idea that we've lost a sense of sin and its consequences. I'm just not so willing to lay it all at the feet of the clergy. People seem to want clergy who are strong and willing to speak out and ruffle feathers as long as they get to choose which sins the focus is on. And those sins they want highlighted vary depending on their political views most often. As do the sins they get bent out of shape about when they are mentioned. At least that's been my experience.

I don't think God looks kindly on anyone doing such things to children, and those millstones won't be for clergy only. If you remove all the evils done to children by clerics from the world you've only touched a fraction of the evil.
I suppose.

I'd like to think the clergy were more prophetic and didn't check to see first whom they would offend.

I see the canonization of Judas as a way of saying no sin is significant any more and we're all quite OK as we are.
 
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