Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

imge said:

Do you think you could quote scripture? It would make it a lot easier to follow your posts and try to put things in context.

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The part about no one doing good is here

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously warned both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written, "There is no one righteous; no, not one. 11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one." 13 "Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit." "The poison of vipers is under their lips;" 14 "whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood. 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways. 17 The way of peace, they haven't known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Is that all of the quotes that you wanted?

Leaf473 said:

The part about no one doing good is here

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously warned both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written, "There is no one righteous; no, not one. 11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one." 13 "Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit." "The poison of vipers is under their lips;" 14 "whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood. 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways. 17 The way of peace, they haven't known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Is that all of the quotes that you wanted?

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To add to your post, Paul was quoting Psalms 14 and 53 in Romans 3. These two psalms are the only two in the entire psalter which are virtually identical to each other. It seems that God was fairly intent on making His point if He repeated Himself three times on the same topic - man's complete and total depravity.

Leaf473 said:

As I said above, we do seem to be in kind of a loop. But I will attempt to go through this post as well. Jesus told the man who was cured from the skin condition of leprosy to go and show himself to the priest. If you believe the entire law still must be complied with, how do you go about complying with this commandment? How do you teach others to comply with it? Do you mean that the commandment to show yourself to the priest when your leprosy goes away has been changed to keep God's commandments? Has the part about showing yourself to the son of Aaron been changed to show yourself to the son of David? These are honest questions.

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Your mistake here is that your trying to apply old covenant law to new covenant application when there is none. Fore example in the new covenant, there is no more Levitical Priests, earthly Sanctuary service or animal sacrifices for sin which are all a part of the shadow laws for remission of sins under the old covenant fulfilled in the body of Christ to who they pointed to and are continued in according to Colossians 2:17 in the new covenant.

So under the old covenant for example the "shadow laws" for remission of sins pointed to the coming of the Messiah in Christ and his work on our behalf under the new covenant based on better promises according to Hebrews 8:1-6. The earthly Sanctuary along with the Levitical Priesthood, the laws for remission of sins, animal sacrifices and sin offerings and anything involved with them are fulfilled and continued in Christ who is now our new High Priest *Hebrews 7:1-25

Under the old covenant God's people looked forward in faith to the coming of the Messiah while in the new covenant today God's people look back to the coming of Christ and the fulfillment of the prophetic laws which are now continued in the body of Christ to which they all pointed to *Colossians 2:17; John 1:29; Hebrews 8:1-6; Hebrews 9:1-17; Hebrews 10:1-17. What this means for us today under the new covenant is that there is no more "shadow laws" of an earthly Sanctuary, no more laws of the Levitical Priesthood, not more animal sacrifices and sin offerings which are now fulfilled and continued in Christ based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6.

Jesus is now our great high Priest *Hebrews 7:1-25 ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:2 who is also God's perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:14-24; 1 John 2:2; Romans 5:8; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 10:10-12; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 4:10. Jesus as our true sacrifice for the sins of the world. So anything here associated with the old covenant Levitical Priesthood and Sanctuary service and laws for remission of sins are no longer applicable for us today in the new covenant.

Leaf473 said:

Assuming that not showing yourself to the son of Aaron is not a sin, neither are those things that you listed. Now, those things that you listed, I cannot see how they would be in keeping with loving your neighbor. So in practice a Christian ought not to do them.Peace be with you.

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Note here we have been discussing to date the old and new covenants and what is fulfilled in the new covenant and what is still applicable in the new covenant. As shown earlier in the new covenant we are no longer under the Levitical Priesthood. Jesus has now taken over this role under the new covenant ministering on our behalf in the order of Melchizedek *Hebrews 7:1-25. Therefore you will not find any of these laws in regards to the Levitical Priesthood or the Sanctuary service or the laws for remission of sins mentioned as a requirement for believers after the death and resurrection of Jesus because Jesus now takes on this role as our great High Priest ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man.

In comparison you will find that everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated on the new covenant scriptures (scripture support here). Also we are told in the new covenant scriptures that the role of God's 10 commandments is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Psalms 119:172. James even goes on to say that if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments in James 2:10-11 we stand guilty of God of sin.

All of the above are Gods' Word showing the role of Gods' 10 commandments has the same role it always has and that is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and to lead us back to God that we might be forgiven through faith (Galatians 3:22-25) and to show us our need of Christ and the promise of the gift of God's dear son *Romans 6:23.

All of God's 10 commandments are our duty of love. This is why Jesus says "On these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets *Matthew 22:36-40. Paul says that Gods' love is demonstrated through obedience to Gods' law in Romans 13:8-10 as does James in James 2:10-11 and John in 1 John 5:2-4 and Jesus once again in John 14:15 and John 15:10. Love is not separate from God's law it is expressed through obedience to Gods' law. This is why Jesus says unless a man is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven in John 3:3-7. John goes on to show in 1 John 3:4-9 that those who are born of God into God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 do not knowingly practice sin (1 John 3:6-9; James 4:7; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31) and those who do are the children of the devil and do not know God according to the scriptures in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14.

If we LOVE our neighbor...

* We will honor our parents,
* We will not kill them
* We will not commit adultery with their spouse
* We will not steal from them
* We will not lie to them
* We will not covet what they own.

If we LOVE our God...

* We will not have other Gods
* We will not make idols and worship them
* We will not take his name [follow] him in vain
* We will remember his Sabbath and keep it holy.

ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS [OF LOVE] HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

Hope this is helpful.

Deleted

LoveGodsWord said:

Your mistake here is that your trying to apply old covenant law to new covenant application when there is none. Fore example in the new covenant, there is no more Levitical Priests, Sanctuary service or animal sacrifices for sin which are all a part of the shadow laws for remission of sins under the old covenant fulfilled in the body of Christ to who they pointed to and are continued in according to Colossians 2:17 in the new covenant.

So under the old covenant for example the "shadow laws" for remission of sins pointed to the coming of the Messiah in Christ and his work on our behalf under the new covenant based on better promises according to Hebrews 8:1-6. The earthly Sanctuary along with the Levitical Priesthood, the laws for remission of sins, animal sacrifices and sin offerings and anything involved with them are fulfilled and continued in Christ who is now our new High Priest *Hebrews 7:1-25

Under the old covenant God's people looked forward in faith to the coming of the Messiah while in the new covenant today God's people look back to the coming of Christ and the fulfillment of the prophetic laws which are now continued in the body of Christ to which they all pointed to *Colossians 2:17; John 1:29; Hebrews 8:1-6; Hebrews 9:1-17; Hebrews 10:1-17. What this means for us today under the new covenant is that there is no more "shadow laws" of an earthly Sanctuary, no more laws of the Levitical Priesthood, not more animal sacrifices and sin offerings which are now fulfilled and continued in Christ based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6.

Jesus is now our great high Priest *Hebrews 7:1-25 ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:2 who is also God's perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:14-24; 1 John 2:2; Romans 5:8; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 10:10-12; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 4:10. Jesus as our true sacrifice for the sins of the world. So anything here associated with the old covenant Levitical Priesthood and Sanctuary service and laws for remission of sins are no longer applicable for us today in the new covenant.



Note here we have been discussing to date the old and new covenants and what is fulfilled in the new covenant and what is still applicable in the new covenant. As shown earlier in the new covenant we are no longer under the Levitical Priesthood. Jesus has now taken over this role under the new covenant ministering on our behalf in the order of Melchizedek *Hebrews 7:1-25. Therefore you will not find any of these laws in regards to the Levitical Priesthood or the Sanctuary service or the laws for remission of sins mentioned as a requirement for believers after the death and resurrection of Jesus because Jesus now takes on this role as our great High Priest ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man.

In comparison you will find that everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated on the new covenant scriptures (scripture support here). Also we are told in the new covenant scriptures that the role of God's 10 commandments is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Psalms 119:172. James even goes on to say that if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments in James 2:10-11 we stand guilty of God of sin.

All of the above are Gods' Word showing the role of Gods' 10 commandments has the same role it always has and that is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and to lead us back to God that we might be forgiven through faith (Galatians 3:22-25) and to show us our need of Christ and the promise of the gift of God's dear son *Romans 6:23.

All of God's 10 commandments are our duty of love. This is why Jesus says "On these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets *Matthew 22:36-40. Paul says that Gods' love is demonstrated through obedience to Gods' law in Romans 13:8-10 as does James in James 2:10-11 and John in 1 John 5:2-4 and Jesus once again in John 14:15 and John 15:10. Love is not separate from God's law it is expressed through obedience to Gods' law. This is why Jesus says unless a man is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven in John 3:3-7. John goes on to show in 1 John 3:4-9 that those who are born of God into God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 do not knowingly practice sin (1 John 3:6-9; James 4:7; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31) and those who do are the children of the devil and do not know God according to the scriptures in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14.

If we LOVE our neighbor...

* We will honor our parents,
* We will not kill them
* We will not commit adultery with their spouse
* We will not steal from them
* We will not lie to them
* We will not covet what they own.

If we LOVE our God...

* We will not have other Gods
* We will not make idols and worship them
* We will not take his name [follow] him in vain
* We will remember his Sabbath and keep it holy.

ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS [OF LOVE] HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

Hope this is helpful.

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Hi LoveGodsWord,
Good to see you again!

I agree, I think it is a mistake to think that we have to keep all of the commandments.

I was discussing with @imge this passage
Matthew 5:17 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

I had posed this question:

Leaf473 said:

Hi imge,

We seem to be stuck in a loop here where we keep going over the same questions and answers.

I think we can break out of the loop if you will tell me whether in your view this quote from Jesus contains one condition or two:
"For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished."

What I mean is this. These two statements:

until heaven and earth pass away

until all things are accomplished.

Do they represent two different conditions as Jesus uses them in that passage, or just one condition?

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Myself, I think the answer is two conditions. But, for the sake of discussion, I'm definitely interested in talking about the ramifications of it being one condition.

I brought up the subject of leprosy because if the entire law is still intact, and we are required to keep it, how do we deal with showing ourselves to a son of Aaron? The commandment is specific, it is not someone from the tribe of Judah. The commandment is not just about sin, it looks like there are also parts about preventing the spread of infection.

I agree that Jesus is now our high priest. Does that mean that the law has been changed? If the law has been changed, how is it that not a single jot or tittle will pass away from it?

imge said:

@Leaf473 Your trick of the quotes didn't work for me.


(QUOTE) Well, one step at a time. Do you believe that Jesus accomplished what he said he came to do, that is "fulfill"? (/QUOTE)

Jesus came to be a sacrifice for our sins. He is the perfect lamb without blemish. He died to save each and every one of us. He did not die so we would continue to sin which is what we are taught through scriptures. John 8:11, Hebrew 10:26, John 5:14. When we are truly sorry for our sins, we will turn away from them and Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to help us obey. John 14:15-18. Jesus did not come to destroy God’s moral laws which we are already told are eternal. It would not make sense for Jesus to come and live a sinless life as our example, only to abolish God’s laws so it would be okay to continue sinning. Jesus was our sacrifice and the only laws abolished at the cross are the ceremonial laws of burnt offerings, animal sacrifices, festivals etc.


(QUOTE)
And if Jesus was successful, did he complete the condition "until all is fulfilled"? It's an important question, I think. (/QUOTE)

I think we need to look at the context of what Jesus said to help us define what He means.

Mathew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.
Pretty clear. He did not come to destroy the law, so it would not make sense for Him to mean in the next sentence that He came to void the law, which is really what the argument is here despite how its worded.

Mathew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Fulfilled means to fill full, make complete, continue, magnify. Jesus came to magnify God’s laws, not abolished it. Isaiah 41:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This is further evidence that God’s commandment still stand because whoever breaks the least of them and teaches others to break God’s laws will be called least in the kingdom. This is why I would be very careful on here about teaching anyone that God’s eternal moral laws are no longer required. I also do not think least in the kingdom of heaven means they will be in heaven.

God's laws should be in our hearts and we obey because of our love for Him

This all I have time for now, will address more when time allows. God bless

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Regarding the quoting system, did you remember to replace the parentheses with brackets?

I'm still not clear on whether you believe that passage we're talking about has two conditions or just one.

imge said:

@Leaf473 Your trick of the quotes didn't work for me.


(QUOTE) Well, one step at a time. Do you believe that Jesus accomplished what he said he came to do, that is "fulfill"? (/QUOTE)

Jesus came to be a sacrifice for our sins. He is the perfect lamb without blemish. He died to save each and every one of us. He did not die so we would continue to sin which is what we are taught through scriptures. John 8:11, Hebrew 10:26, John 5:14. When we are truly sorry for our sins, we will turn away from them and Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to help us obey. John 14:15-18. Jesus did not come to destroy God’s moral laws which we are already told are eternal. It would not make sense for Jesus to come and live a sinless life as our example, only to abolish God’s laws so it would be okay to continue sinning. Jesus was our sacrifice and the only laws abolished at the cross are the ceremonial laws of burnt offerings, animal sacrifices, festivals etc.

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Okay, this part of your post makes it sound like just one condition, which has not yet been fulfilled. I think so we don't get confused, it would be good just to talk about the one condition or two situation. Then we can talk about the law being a unit or divided into parts.

(QUOTE)
And if Jesus was successful, did he complete the condition "until all is fulfilled"? It's an important question, I think. (/QUOTE)

I think we need to look at the context of what Jesus said to help us define what He means.

Mathew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.
Pretty clear. He did not come to destroy the law, so it would not make sense for Him to mean in the next sentence that He came to void the law, which is really what the argument is here despite how its worded.

Mathew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Fulfilled means to fill full, make complete, continue, magnify. Jesus came to magnify God’s laws, not abolished it.

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But this part makes it sound like two conditions, one of which Jesus did fulfill by magnifying the law.

Isaiah 41:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This is further evidence that God’s commandment still stand because whoever breaks the least of them and teaches others to break God’s laws will be called least in the kingdom. This is why I would be very careful on here about teaching anyone that God’s eternal moral laws are no longer required. I also do not think least in the kingdom of heaven means they will be in heaven.

God's laws should be in our hearts and we obey because of our love for Him

This all I have time for now, will address more when time allows. God bless

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imge said:

The thing you have to keep in mind is there are not two Gods, one for the Old Testament and one for The New. God is unchanging and Jesus came to do the will of His Father. Jesus kept all of His Fathers commandments and asked us to as well. John 15:10. Jesus said He did not come to destroy the laws. I think you keep getting yourself hung up on the word “fulfill” which does not mean destroy, so therefore we need to keep God’s laws like He asked. Jesus went on to say whoever does and teach God’s law will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven Mathew 5:19 - isn’t that the goal? We keep God’s laws because He asked and we love Him. This really isn’t that complicated. The one commandment that always seems to be the hold up for some reason is keeping God’s Sabbath. If Jesus came today and told you to keep His seventh day Sabbath holy. Do not keep man-made traditions that breaks one of His commandments -would you do it?

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The Sabbath is a day of rest, nothing more and nothing less. In the OT time when the Mosaic law was written people worked seven days a week. There were no weekends, days off, etc. that many take for granted. People were commanded to rest one day per week.

That does not mean that people stayed in bed all day; there were (and are) certain tasks that need to be done every day.

IMHO the commandment was/is directed at workaholics, if applied to today's living. It also cannot apply to people who work in health care, farmers, law enforcement, firefighters, etc.

Leaf473 said:

I agree that Jesus is now our high priest. Does that mean that the law has been changed? If the law has been changed, how is it that not a single jot or tittle will pass away from it?

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Hello Leaf,

Of course the law in regards to the Priesthood has been changed. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah where as only those from the tribe of Levi were allowed to be Priests under the old covenant earthly Sanctuary system *Numbers 18:1-5. According to the scriptures in Hebrews 7:1-25 there needed to be a change in the law so that Jesus coming from the tribe of Judah could take on the role of High Priest to minister in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6.

Change of the law of the Priesthood...

Hebrews 7:11-19, [11] If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law, what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? [12], For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. [13], For he of whom these things are spoken pertains to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. [14], For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. [15], And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there rises another priest, [16], Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. [17], For he testifies, You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. [18], For there is truly a cancellation of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [19], For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw near to God.

As shown above the change of the law here was the change of the laws concerning the Priesthood not the 10 commandments.

As to your question these laws here as posted earlier in regards to the "shadow laws" for the remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, earthly Sanctuary, animal sacrifices and sin offerings and other offerings etc) were all "shadow laws" pointing to the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17 and are fulfilled in Christ and are now continued in Christ based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. They are not abolished but continued in Christ under Gods new covenant promises. These "shadow laws" however are not Gods' eternal laws that do not change and are the standard of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed in Gods' 10 commandments. of course Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath is one of God's 10 commandments according to Exodus 20:8-11 and one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3;4; James 2:10-11; Psalms 119:172; 1 John 3:6-9; 1 John 2:3-4)

There is two parts to Matthew 5:17-28.

1. The fulfillment of the shadow laws the point to Jesus as the coming Messiah and Gods' plan of salvation for all mankind in the new covenant promise of Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27

The first part is in reference to Jesus fulfilling the Mosiac "shadow laws" of the old covenant that all pointed to Jesus as the coming Messiah and Gods' plan of salvation for all mankind under the new covenant (Levitical Priesthood, animal sacrifices and sin offerings, earthly Sanctuary and its laws, circumcision, Feast days). All of these laws are fulfilled in Jesus and continued in Him based on better promises (Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-22)

2. The redemption of all mankind from sin through faith in Gods' Word.

Jesus came to magnify the law from the inside out quoting Matthew 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *Isaiah 42:21. This is to show that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 commandments. Evil begins in the heart. Breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments from the heart defile a man according to Jesus in *Matthew 15:18-19.

Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones in *Matthew 23:27-28. Jesus is magnifying the God’s 10 commandments in Matthew 5 from the inside out to our very thoughts and feelings. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the heart (thoughts and feelings) which is why we need a new one *Ezekiel 36:24-27.

That is why we have the new covenant promise to of God’s salvation from sin and a new heart to love which is why we need to be born again by faith in God's Word *1 John 5:4 for God’s salvation is to free us from the power of sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *Romans 8:1-4; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 3:31; John 8:31-36; Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 3:3-10.

..................

There are two parts to Matthew 5. The first is Jesus fulfilling the law and the prophets as the promised Messiah and the second is in regards to our salvation from sin through the power of God by faith in Gods' Word to be born again into Gods' new covenant promise to all those who believe. None of the laws and the prophets are abolished according to Jesus that are fulfilled in him and also in us as we believe and follow His Word....

Romans 8:1-4 [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

God's new covenant promise to to fulfill His law in our hearts as we are born again through faith *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27 (see also Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; John 14:15; John 15:10 and 1 John 5:2-4 ). Faith however does not abolish God's law (10 commandments) it establishes Gods' law in all those who have faith... Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law.

Hope this is helpful.

Romans 4:3-12 (ESV) For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Righteousness is through Faith alone.

To him who works his wages are not counted as a gift, but his due.

Salvation is a gift.

imge said:

The thing you have to keep in mind is there are not two Gods, one for the Old Testament and one for the New. God is unchanging and Jesus came to do the will of His Father. Jesus kept all of His Fathers commandments and asked us to as well. John 15:10. Jesus said He did not come to destroy the laws. I think you keep getting yourself hung up on the word “fulfill” which does not mean destroy, so therefore we need to keep God’s laws like He asked. Jesus went on to say whoever does and teach God’s commandments will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven Mathew 5:19 - isn’t that our goal? We keep God’s laws because He asked and we love Him? This really isn’t that complicated. The one commandment that seems to be the hold up for some reason is keeping God’s Sabbath. If Jesus came today and told you to keep His seventh day Sabbath holy. Do not keep man-made traditions that breaks one of His commandments -would you do it?

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I don't think we're quite communicating here.

I asked the question about one condition or two conditions here:

Leaf473 said:

Hi imge,

We seem to be stuck in a loop here where we keep going over the same questions and answers.

I think we can break out of the loop if you will tell me whether in your view this quote from Jesus contains one condition or two:
"For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished."

What I mean is this. These two statements:

until heaven and earth pass away

until all things are accomplished.

Do they represent two different conditions as Jesus uses them in that passage, or just one condition?

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Do you understand what I'm asking in that post, or do you want me to give more details?

LoveGodsWord said:

Hello Leaf,

Of course the law in regards to the Priesthood has been changed. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah where as only those from the tribe of Levi were allowed to be Priests under the old covenant earthly Sanctuary system *Numbers 18:1-5. According to the scriptures in Hebrews 7:1-25 there needed to be a change in the law so that Jesus coming from the tribe of Judah could take on the role of High Priest to minister in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6.

Change of the law of the Priesthood...

Hebrews 7:11-19, [11] If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law, what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? [12], For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. [13], For he of whom these things are spoken pertains to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. [14], For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. [15], And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there rises another priest, [16], Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. [17], For he testifies, You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. [18], For there is truly a cancellation of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [19], For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw near to God.

As shown above the change of the law here was the change of the laws concerning the Priesthood not the 10 commandments.

As to your question these laws here as posted earlier in regards to the "shadow laws" for the remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, earthly Sanctuary, animal sacrifices and sin offerings and other offerings etc) were all "shadow laws" pointing to the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17 and are fulfilled in Christ and are now continued in Christ based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. They are not abolished but continued in Christ under Gods new covenant promises. These "shadow laws" however are not Gods' eternal laws that do not change and are the standard of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed in Gods' 10 commandments. of course Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath is one of God's 10 commandments according to Exodus 20:8-11 and one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3;4; James 2:10-11; Psalms 119:172; 1 John 3:6-9; 1 John 2:3-4)

There is two parts to Matthew 5:17-28.

1. The fulfillment of the shadow laws the point to Jesus as the coming Messiah and Gods' plan of salvation for all mankind in the new covenant promise of Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27

The first part is in reference to Jesus fulfilling the Mosiac "shadow laws" of the old covenant that all pointed to Jesus as the coming Messiah and Gods' plan of salvation for all mankind under the new covenant (Levitical Priesthood, animal sacrifices and sin offerings, earthly Sanctuary and its laws, circumcision, Feast days). All of these laws are fulfilled in Jesus and continued in Him based on better promises (Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-22)

2. The redemption of all mankind from sin through faith in Gods' Word.

Jesus came to magnify the law from the inside out quoting Matthew 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *Isaiah 42:21. This is to show that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 commandments. Evil begins in the heart. Breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments from the heart defile a man according to Jesus in *Matthew 15:18-19.

Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones in *Matthew 23:27-28. Jesus is magnifying the God’s 10 commandments in Matthew 5 from the inside out to our very thoughts and feelings. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the heart (thoughts and feelings) which is why we need a new one *Ezekiel 36:24-27.

That is why we have the new covenant promise to of God’s salvation from sin and a new heart to love which is why we need to be born again by faith in God's Word *1 John 5:4 for God’s salvation is to free us from the power of sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *Romans 8:1-4; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 3:31; John 8:31-36; Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 3:3-10.

..................

There are two parts to Matthew 5. The first is Jesus fulfilling the law and the prophets as the promised Messiah and the second is in regards to our salvation from sin through the power of God by faith in Gods' Word to be born again into Gods' new covenant promise to all those who believe. None of the laws and the prophets are abolished according to Jesus that are fulfilled in him and also in us as we believe and follow His Word....

Romans 8:1-4 [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

God's new covenant promise to to fulfill His law in our hearts as we are born again through faith *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27 (see also Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; John 14:15; John 15:10 and 1 John 5:2-4 ). Faith however does not abolish God's law (10 commandments) it establishes Gods' law in all those who have faith... Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law.

Hope this is helpful.

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Thank you for the nice response.

Before we talk further about changes to the law, I'm interested in your answer to the question below.

I think it's an important question, and hopefully it can break us out of the pattern of posting much the same things back and forth to each other.
(If you've already answered it in your post, please direct me to that part of your post.)

Leaf473 said:

(Please) tell me whether in your view this quote from Jesus contains one condition or two:
"For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished."

What I mean is this. These two statements:

until heaven and earth pass away

until all things are accomplished.

Do they represent two different conditions as Jesus uses them in that passage, or just one condition?

Click to expand...

imge said:

You will need to take that argument up with God, because this is the commandment He wrote.

Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath by keeping it holy. NIV
Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. KJV

God says to hallow My Sabbaths (keep holy). Ezekiel 20:20

So your argument is not with me....

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I'm not arguing with you, I'm arguing that posting single verses without explaining how you interpret them is a waste of time.

If you're not Jewish why are you putting yourself (and by extension others) under the Mosaic Law, a.k.a., the Old Covenant?

Matthew 12:8, "For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath"
Mark 2:28, "For this reason the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath."
Luke 6:5, "Then he said to them, “The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."

Clearly Jesus has declared Himself in control of the Sabbath. The commandment is superseded by the Person.

Luke 13:15, "Then the Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from its stall, and lead it to water?"

A perfect example... Jesus teaching the Pharisees that they violate God's commandment of the Sabbath with their hypocrisy.