Ethics of free speech in relation to violence

hedrick · Apr 12, 2021

The OP seems to be about ethics and not law. I think in most cases you’re responsible for actions that are reasonably forseeable as a consequence of what you say. But there’s a reason not to make that a hard and fast rule. You may also have a responsibility to speak the truth, even knowing that some people will react badly to it. I would say that if you’re in that kind of situation you should chose where you say it and how you word it to minimize the likelihood of trouble.

grasping the after wind · Apr 12, 2021

LockeeDeck said:
So your Creator is good with you spreading lies and hate that inspires others to commit violence?

You seem to be conflating allowing freedom to choose with approving of the choice. Our Creator endowed us with freedom to act knowing we will, would and have done things that He won't, didn't and doesn't a approve of. Yet here we are with the freedom to act in ways our Creator has specifically told us He does not approve of. Is it the mandate of government, society or large corporations to take from us that which our Creator endowed us with ? If it is, from where did any of them get authority to overrule the work of the Creator?

grasping the after wind · Apr 12, 2021

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LockeeDeck said:
Is a speaker responsible for the actions of someone who listened to their words and if so to what extent?

A king complains about a priest around his knights and the knights go out and kill the priest even though the king didn't directly order it. Is the king responsible for the actions of his knights?

A president tells his supporters at a rally to fight and "stop the steal" and his supporters go and storm the capital building even though the president didn't directly tell them to do that. Is the president responsible for the actions of the supporters at that rally?

A social media personality says that a certain racial group is responsible for all of societies ills and a fan goes and attacks members of that racial group. Is the social media personality responsible even though he never directly said to do that and is separated in both time and space from the fan?

Every individual is responsible for their own actions.

TLK Valentine · Apr 12, 2021

grasping the after wind said:
Every individual is responsible for their own actions.

Nobody's denying that, but a leader is responsible for the actions of their followers... to a certain extent.

grasping the after wind · Apr 12, 2021

TLK Valentine said:
Nobody's denying that, but a leader is responsible for the actions of their followers... to a certain extent.

To what extent?

LockeeDeck · Apr 13, 2021

grasping the after wind said:
To what extent?

That's exactly what is in question.

Albion · Apr 13, 2021

LockeeDeck said:
A president tells his supporters at a rally to fight and "stop the steal" and his supporters go and storm the capital building even though the president didn't directly tell them to do that. Is the president responsible for the actions of the supporters at that rally?

I think you're going to have to use a real example rather than a hypothetical one like this, if we are to come up with a good answer to your question.

LockeeDeck · Apr 13, 2021

grasping the after wind said:
You seem to be conflating allowing freedom to choose with approving of the choice. Our Creator endowed us with freedom to act knowing we will, would and have done things that He won't, didn't and doesn't a approve of. Yet here we are with the freedom to act in ways our Creator has specifically told us He does not approve of.

Indeed many actions are explicitly condemned in the Bible what I was asking is if speech that incites is also condemned.

Is it the mandate of government, society or large corporations to take from us that which our Creator endowed us with ? If it is, from where did any of them get authority to overrule the work of the Creator?

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Government and societal authority is derived from the people through approval or violence. However, that doesn't factor into how your Creator views freedom of speech and it's consequences.

LockeeDeck · Apr 13, 2021

Albion said:
I think you're going to have to use a real example rather than a hypothetical one like this, if we are to come up with a good answer to your question.

What are your thoughts on the king and knights example?

renniks · Apr 13, 2021

LockeeDeck said:
Is a speaker responsible for the actions of someone who listened to their words and if so to what extent?

A king complains about a priest around his knights and the knights go out and kill the priest even though the king didn't directly order it. Is the king responsible for the actions of his knights?

A president tells his supporters at a rally to fight and "stop the steal" and his supporters go and storm the capital building even though the president didn't directly tell them to do that. Is the president responsible for the actions of the supporters at that rally?

A social media personality says that a certain racial group is responsible for all of societies ills and a fan goes and attacks members of that racial group. Is the social media personality responsible even though he never directly said to do that and is separated in both time and space from the fan?

No, we our only responsible for our own actions.
That is a very slippery slope.

Andrewn · Apr 13, 2021

LockeeDeck said:
Indeed many actions are explicitly condemned in the Bible what I was asking is if speech that incites is also condemned.

Jam 3:5 Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body,sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

Andrewn · Apr 13, 2021

renniks said:
No, we our only responsible for our own actions.
That is a very slippery slope.

Really? If you hire someone to kill a person you hate, then you're not responsible?

LockeeDeck · Apr 13, 2021

Andrewn said:
Jam 3:5 Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body,sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

The small spark that sets a great fire is a good analogy. It's clear that James was saying that the tongue (our words) can cause chaos but it's unclear if he is extending the chaos it causes to just the individual or to the community as a whole.

Andrewn · Apr 13, 2021

LockeeDeck said:
The small spark that sets a great fire is a good analogy. It's clear that James was saying that the tongue (our words) can cause chaos but it's unclear if he is extending the chaos it causes to just the individual or to the community as a whole.

The tongue can set a forest on fire. This has to be the community as a whole.

Bobber · Apr 13, 2021

Astroqualia said:
And this slippery slope is exactly why our country is going down the tube these days. Because soon hate speech will be illegal, and guess what comes next? Anyone speaking the harsh, not politically correct truth about real issues or criticizing those in power, will be committing hate speech. It remains to be seen, but before long, be seen it will. It's already being discouraged in society with the rise of PC in general, it will only inevitably get worse.

And people should take note. Those who side in so easily to speech being defined as hate and should be punishable invariably will some day say something like, "Oh NO! What have we done!" At that time it may be too late for even they will be afraid to speak up. They'll lament that they took part in creating a totalitarian society and not have any clue what to do about it except secretly weep.

TLK Valentine · Apr 13, 2021

Astroqualia said:
And this slippery slope is exactly why our country is going down the tube these days. Because soon hate speech will be illegal, and guess what comes next? Anyone speaking the harsh, not politically correct truth about real issues or criticizing those in power, will be committing hate speech.

You got that right:

GOP Senators Introduce Retaliatory Legislation Against MLB for Leaving Georgia

LockeeDeck · Apr 13, 2021

grasping the after wind said:
Every individual is responsible for their own actions.

How does that play out in real terms?

Was the king not responsible for his knights?

Was Charles Manson not responsible for his cult members?

Bobber · Apr 13, 2021

LockeeDeck said:
A president tells his supporters at a rally to fight and "stop the steal" and his supporters go and storm the capital building even though the president didn't directly tell them to do that. Is the president responsible for the actions of the supporters at that rally?

You might be raising a good question. Let me ask another though. When entertainer Madonna said at a rally (when Trump was President) that she felt like blowing up the White House and she said the next day,

"However I want to clarify some very important things. I am not a violent person, I do not promote violence and it's important people hear and understand my speech in it's entirety rather than one phrase taken wildly out of context"

So the question....are you and others OK with that? Or what Cathy Griffin did which I won't go into to speak about. If some of their followers and I don't think anyone can argue that Madonna doesn't have influence if some supporters sought to carry out what she expressed.....does she get off by just claiming she's not a violent person?

So if we're going to talk about subjects like this including penalty and punishment are we all agreed it should go right across the board, no exceptions? Are we going to go for an allowance for some and not others?

renniks · Apr 13, 2021

Andrewn said:
Really? If you hire someone to kill a person you hate, then you're not responsible?

That's not what the OP is about. Hiring someone to kill is your action, BTW.

Rajni · Apr 13, 2021

LockeeDeck said:
Was Charles Manson not responsible for his cult members?

This was answered in post #37.

Ethics of free speech in relation to violence

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