Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

tall73

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No one said did please read my whole post to you and what I replied to.

I read your posts. And I replied that I did not hold to Sunday rest. You can of course talk about Sunday rest and how wrong it is all you want. But if you are replying to me I am not sure the point.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I read your posts. And I replied that I did not hold to Sunday rest. You can of course talk about Sunday rest and how wrong it is all you want. But if you are replying to me I am not sure the point.
I was discussing relevance to ignoring God's Word in order to follow the teachings and traditions of men over the Word of God. Quite relevant I think to the Sabbath commandment. Sunday worship was only used as an example to make this point. What was posted was directly relevant to what I was replying to from you and relevant to the Sabbath discussion. I posted the whole discussion in post 1189 linked. Perhaps take some more time and read through it if you need to? Also, you do not have to respond to it if you do not wish to it is up to you.
 
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tall73

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The divisions of the Old Testament were clearly in place in the Jewish mind long before the time of Christ, namely, the Law of Moses (first 5 books of the OT), the Prophets (the historical and prophetic books) and the Writings (the poetic books of Job, Psalms, Proverbs, etc.). So when Jesus referred to the Law of Moses, His Jewish listeners knew exactly to what He was referring.

Please state the text that shows Moses wrote Genesis.

I think he likely did for the reasons I spelled out. He is mentioned writing, the narrative continues from Genesis to Exodus, the Samaritans had the pentateuch, the phrase law of Moses is used in association with Exodus and Deuteronomy. However, it is not stated that he wrote Genesis.

Now you mention the divisions. I don't think it always breaks down quite as you mention.

1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Isa 28:11 by reason of the contemptuous words of the lips, by means of another language: for they shall speak to this people, saying to them,

Did Moses write Isaiah?


Joh 15:25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’

Which old testament text do you think this refers to?





 
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tall73

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Sola Scriptura is funny that way. It does not say that "nothing happened unless it is recorded in the Bible" rather it says that doctrine has to be tested by the Bible. I think you are conflating the two just then.

Yet you cannot show Moses writing Genesis in Midian from the Bible. So if we tested that doctrine, you couldn't show it from there.


My argument about the Genesis 36 chapter is
1. Genesis came before Exodus
2. Moses is the author of the first 5 books of the Bible
3. The list of Chiefs given in that chapter and then kings in that chapter are historic fact at the time Moses was in Midian..but they would also be historic fact while Moses was at Sinai... either way it is historic fact.

You haven't demonstrated Moses wrote Genesis. Certainly not in Midian. Now I listed reasons I think it is so. But it does not state it.

The list of chiefs refers to kings of Israel which have not existed yet, and won't for some time and says before they reigned, past tense.

4. I have given several options for why Moses' text points to Israel having no king at all while these Edomite kings were reigning -- I will give another one.
I think it strikes the reader that Jacob and Esau are twins and yet Esau has a long line of kings whereas Israel had none to that point in time. His contemporary readers would have known and agreed to that argument. And they may have been supposing that just as Esau's descendants eventually organized to the point of having Kings - so also would Isaac's descendants - and possibly wonder why it is taking Israel so long as compared to Esau.

No one disputed that Israel didn't have kings while those kings were reigning. In fact, it said they were kings before any king reigned in Israel. But the any king reigned in Israel is in the past in that statement.

In other words the one that was "blessed" had no kings and was in slavery in Egypt. And the one that was not blessed had a long line of them and was in Canaan the entire time. That is a striking contrast for the reader.

In fact Moses told Israel that they should not have kings - just have God as King. Still Moses was shown the future of Israel - their apostasy during the time of the Kings and then God gathering them back to the land of Israel after being taken captive by Babylon.

And he stated those as future events. Whereas this is an historic note from a time when Israel had kings and they were looking back to before there were any kings who reigned in Israel.

Clarity can be added by a direct message from God when it comes to a detail God has not given in scripture. That is not a violation of the "sola scriptura" method of testing doctrine. However it is generally accepted among classic Christian scholarship until the age of criticism that Moses wrote the 5 books.

a. direct message from God being Ellen White? I thought you didn't quote Ellen White here?

b. Then classical Christian scholarship should be able to point to the text that says he wrote Genesis. Or do as I have and say it is likely based on the evidence, but not stated.

Now you already admitted to two later edits, in regards to Moses' death, and in regards to the canaanites in the land. So there is no point continuing to argue the "before any king reigned in Israel" was a future prediction, when it is not stated so, and is stated as looking back at a time when they were not yet reigning. There is nothing wrong with sources or commentary or Luke couldn't be inspired, or Chronicles, etc. Or for that matter Ellen White from your perspective. So if a later editor added to the material from Moses that doesn't bother me. And it didn't seem to bother you in two other cases. So why is this one the exception?


It is very clear that Exodus is about events after Genesis and is very logical to point out that Exodus is quoting Genesis.

It is very clear that Exodus is relating events that were after the events related in Genesis.

It is not in fact clear that Exodus is quoting Genesis. That is because Exodus is quoting the words of God Himself. God stating His commandments. The quote in Exodus is a quote of God, not just a literary reference.

Exodus and Genesis could both be written after God spoke those words and included the quote that He made.

You allege that Moses wrote Genesis before this time and God is quoting that. But you have not demonstrated Genesis was written in Midian before this time.
 
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tall73

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I was discussing relevance to ignoring God's Word in order to follow the teachings and traditions of men over the Word of God.

The whole discussion is seeing whether, after reviewing the texts, I agree with your conclusion that it is required by God's word. Your statements about ignoring God's word to follow tradition do not make sense if we have not finished that investigation. There are many texts on the subject to review, and we just started.
 
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tall73

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The claim that Genesis was added to the Pentateuch in the 5th century B.C. goes against all Bible scholarship leading into the 1900's. I don't see any need for that sort of thing.

You also say that even you think Moses wrote Genesis.

I explained my thought process for why I think Moses wrote most of Genesis. And I spelled out why I think he wrote the majority of the material in the first five books.

But then I also pointed out that the text you cited did not make any statement indicating Moses wrote Genesis.

If the text said it you would be showing where it said it, not saying which scholars concluded something.

And you certainly have not supported that Moses wrote Genesis in Midian, or given evidence that it must have predated God's speaking the ten commandments on Sinai.
 
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BobRyan

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And you certainly have not supported that Moses wrote Genesis in Midian, or given evidence that it must have predated God's speaking the ten commandments on Sinai.

If your argument is that you believe Moses wrote Genesis but are certain he did not write it in Midian - then we differ on one part of that.

If you are simply saying that you are not certain he wrote it while he was in midian then we differ in that I am .

In any case it is irrefutable that Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 20:11 are pointing to the same event during creation week. So not sure how any of this is helping your argument.
 
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BobRyan

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a. You indicate you are sola-Scriptura. But you yet insist Moses wrote Genesis in the desert of Midian without a text.

Sola Scriptura is funny that way. It does not say that "nothing happened unless it is recorded in the Bible" rather it says that doctrine has to be tested by the Bible. I think you are conflating the two just then.

Yet you cannot show Moses writing Genesis in Midian from the Bible. So if we tested that doctrine, you couldn't show it from there.

As we both know, the 28 Fundamental Belief statements of the Adventist denomination do not say "Moses wrote Genesis in Median" so when you call this "doctrine" I think you are using it loosely to refer to how one knows some fact in history when the detail is not spelled out in scripture.

You suggest your own inference is sufficient to know that Moses most certainly did not write Genesis in Median.

I of course would affirm that my own inference is sufficient to know that he did with some degree of certainty ... more than that I would also point out that if I believed God had actually spelled that detail out explicitly - I would most certainly accept it has historic fact.

And All Bible scholar admit that the flow of the historic narrative goes FROM Genesis TO Exodus and not the other way around.

And as already noted earlier there is a great deal of general agreement among Bible scholars across many non-Sabbath keeping denominations that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the New Covenant and given to mankind in Eden.

Not sure how many times we can keep going over these same basic facts.
 
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BobRyan

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No one disputed that Israel didn't have kings while those kings were reigning. In fact, it said they were kings before any king reigned in Israel. But the any king reigned in Israel is in the past in that statement. .

And does not matter. Because it would already be clear to the reader at Sinai that Israel had no kings and that Moses' list of kings for Edom in Genesis shows Edom had kings while Israel did not.

Your "inference" that even though Deuteronomy shows that Moses knew the future captivity of Israel during the time of the kings - that this idea that Israel would eventually expand to the point that like Edom it would one day have kings, could not possibly have been apparent to a contemporary of Moses -- is huge amount of nothing-but-inference from my POV.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Please state the text that shows Moses wrote Genesis.

I think he likely did for the reasons I spelled out. He is mentioned writing, the narrative continues from Genesis to Exodus, the Samaritans had the pentateuch, the phrase law of Moses is used in association with Exodus and Deuteronomy. However, it is not stated that he wrote Genesis.

Now you mention the divisions. I don't think it always breaks down quite as you mention.

1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Isa 28:11 by reason of the contemptuous words of the lips, by means of another language: for they shall speak to this people, saying to them,

Did Moses write Isaiah?

Joh 15:25 But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’


Which old testament text do you think this refers to?

As posted earlier, the book of the law does not state that it is any of the individual books of the Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers) because the book of the law is referred to as all these books collectively.

The books of Joshua (8:31-32, 23:6) and Kings (1 Kings 2:3; 2 Kings 14:6, 23:25) refer to the torah of Moses, or the scroll of the torah of Moses. The much later books of Ezra 3:2, 6:18, 7:6; Nehemiah 1:7-9, 8:1, 14, 9:14, 10:30, 13:1, Daniel 9:1, 13, and Chronicles 2; 23:18, 30:16, 34:14) also refer to “the torah of Moses” or paraphrase laws from the Pentateuch as laws of Moses.

As posted earlier the book of the law (Deuteronomy 28:58; Deuteronomy 30:10; Deuteronomy 31:24-26 Joshua 23:6; 2 Chronicles 34:14-15 etc etc) is the same one written by Moses also called the book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 that was placed in the side of the Ark (Deuteronomy 31:26).

I believe you are quite wrong from a scriptural perspective to claim that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses. It was called the Mosaic book of the law or the law or Torah of Moses because Moses wrote it under God's direction (Deuteronomy 31:24-26). The Pentateuch states that Moses wrote these books (see Exodus 17:14; 24:4; 34:27; Numbers 33:1–2; Deuteronomy 31:9–11).

We also have the witness of the rest of the Old Testament: Joshua 1:8; 8:31–32; 1 Kings 2:3; 2 Kings 14:6; 21:8; Ezra 6:18; Nehemiah 13:1; Daniel 9:11–13; Malachi 4:4. The New Testament is also clear in its testimony: Matthew 19:8; John 5:45-47; 7:19; Acts of the Apostles 3:22; Romans 10:5; Mark 12:26. Then we have the very words of Jesus we need to consider where he says; "For had you believed Moses, you would have believed me; for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words?" (John 5:46-47).

So from a scriptural perspective it seems that Moses is the author from much of the Pentateuch (Torah). Whether he wrote all of it I do not know and neither does it matters. I believe your taking the discussion off topic to be honest as I thought we were talking about the Sabbath?

The other scriptures you provide in your post are not really relevant here. Of course there is the law and the prophets. For me this discussion is going way off topic. I think the scripture evidence speaks for itself that Moses wrote all or the majority of the Pentateuch. If you think otherwise that is your belief and I have outlined what I believe here. What it has to do with our Sabbath discussion though I do not know as it seems to be off topic and a distraction in my view.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The whole discussion is seeing whether, after reviewing the texts, I agree with your conclusion that it is required by God's word. Your statements about ignoring God's word to follow tradition do not make sense if we have not finished that investigation. There are many texts on the subject to review, and we just started.

I may have to agree to disagree here. The way I am seeing it is that it has taken this long and I do not see any arguments your making that support your view that Gods "seventh day" Sabbath is no longer a requirement for Christian living in the new covenant. I also disagree that posting on the traditions and teachings of men from Matthew 15:3-9 does not make any sense. It absolutely makes sense because this is the position of most of the Christian world today and the reason they no longer keep the Sabbath of Gods' 4th commandment. To claim that Sunday worship has no relevancy to the discussion I do not believe is truthful as it has everything to do with the Sabbath as it has supplanted the Sabbath in the Christian world. For me it is very clear from the overwhelming amount of scriptures that has already been provided throughout this thread that God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments and that everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are a requirement and standard for Christian living according to the scriptures in the new testament. According to these scriptures the role of Gods' 10 commandments is the same role it always had and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral wrong doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and if we knowingly break anyone of them according to James we stand guilty before God of sin according to *James 2:10-11. Gods 4th commandment is the only one of Gods' 10 commandments that acknowledges God as the God of creation and God as our creator and only one entitled to our worship. I am not sure why you cannot see how this discussion links in very nicely with Matthew 15:3-9; John 4:23-24; Exodus 20:8 and Revelation 14:7-12; Revelation 18:4 which is all about worship and the Sabbath and its implications in the world Church today.
 
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tall73

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I may have to agree to disagree here. The way I am seeing it is that it has taken this long and I do not see any arguments your making that support your view that Gods "seventh day" Sabbath is no longer a requirement for Christian living in the new covenant. I also disagree that posting on the traditions and teachings of men from Matthew 15:3-9 does not make any sense. It absolutely makes sense because this is the position of most of the Christian world today and the reason they no longer keep the Sabbath of Gods' 4th commandment. To claim that Sunday worship has no relevancy to the discussion I do not believe is truthful as it has everything to do with the Sabbath as it has supplanted the Sabbath in the Christian world. For me it is very clear from the overwhelming amount of scriptures that has already been provided throughout this thread that God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments and that everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are a requirement and standard for Christian living which according to the scriptures in the new testament give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral wrong doing) are according to Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and if we knowingly break anyone of them according to James we stand guilty before God of sin according to *James 2:10-11. Gods 4th commandment is the only one of Gods' 10 commandments that acknowledges God as the God of creation and God as our creator and only one entitled to our worship. I am not sure why you cannot see how this discussion links in very nicely with Matthew 15:3-9; John 4:23-24; Exodus 20:8 and Revelation 14:7-12; Revelation 18:4 which is all about worship and the Sabbath and its implications in the world Church today.


So it sounds like you were more interested in posting your view than hearing mine, even though you asked about my view. We had many texts to look at, and had only examined a few.

No need to continue then. I will review the texts on my own.
 
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tall73

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As we both know, the 28 Fundamental Belief statements of the Adventist denomination do not say "Moses wrote Genesis in Median" so when you call this "doctrine" I think you are using it loosely to refer to how one knows some fact in history when the detail is not spelled out in scripture.

The 28 say her writings are a continuing source...and you claim to believe her writings. So yes, it is doctrine.


You suggest your own inference is sufficient to know that Moses most certainly did not write Genesis in Median.

Actually, no. I stated we don't have any statement that he wrote it (but I think he did), and that if he did write it we don't have any timing indicated.

However, I think it likely that it was after the statement by God, which both works then quote.


I of course would affirm that my own inference is sufficient to know that he did with some degree of certainty ... more than that I would also point out that if I believed God had actually spelled that detail out explicitly - I would most certainly accept it has historic fact.

And All Bible scholar admit that the flow of the historic narrative goes FROM Genesis TO Exodus and not the other way around.

The question is not the flow from one book to the other. We agree with that, and I mentioned it as part of the reasoning for Moses writing Genesis.

The question is whether Exodus was written before God spoke the commandments at Sinai. Clearly not. So Exodus at the least was written after the statement at Sinai, and Exodus 20 is a quote of the Lord at Sinai. You state it was a quote of Genesis. But it represents God as saying the words in Exodus 20.

So are you saying part of the commandment wording is not from then but is an explanatory quote?

Or are you saying that God quoted from Genesis which you postulate, but do not demonstrate, was written earlier?



And as already noted earlier there is a great deal of general agreement among Bible scholars across many non-Sabbath keeping denominations that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the New Covenant and given to mankind in Eden.

Not sure how many times we can keep going over these same basic facts.

No, it seems LGW, who started this conversation, was not that interested in the first place. We can be done.
 
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tall73

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The other scriptures you provide in your post are not really relevant here. Of course there is the law and the prophets.

You seem to have missed that he says the law then quotes from a prophet, which does not do any favors for your neat classification system.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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So it sounds like you were more interested in posting your view than hearing mine, even though you asked about my view. We had many texts to look at, and had only examined a few. No need to continue then. I will review the texts on my own.

Not really. I was only demonstrating through the scriptures the relevancy of bringing into the discussion what the scriptures teach in regards to man made teachings and traditions, in regards to obedience to Gods' 10 commandments, the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment and Sunday worship as we have it today which is the the reason why many have been taught to disregard God's 4th commandment either knowingly or unknowingly. Of course like I said earlier. You may not think it relevant. I indeed on the other hand do as I see this from a scriptural view point so for me it is very relevant. Of course you are free to believe as you wish and do not need to respond if you do not wish to.
 
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You seem to have missed that he says the law then quotes from a prophet, which does not do any favors for your neat classification system.
No not at all. Of course the prophets repeat what is in the Torah. They did not write it though they refer to it. They testify to God's people who are obedient to it or not obedient to it providing warning, reproof, correction and instructions in righteousness to point people who are departing the teachings of Gods' Word to help them to return to it. Sadly though according to Isaiah who Jesus and Paul often quoted in the new testament many have eyes to see but choose not to see or ears that hear but choose not to hear so God might bless them and heal them if they would but hear His voice (the Word) and return to him (Isaiah 6:9-10; Matthew 13:13-14; Acts of the Apostles 28:25-27). Let's pray that we are not of those who reject God's Word being referred to by the prophets of old and harden our hearts to hearing God's Word.
 
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tall73

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Of course the prophets repeat what is in the Torah. They did not write it though they refer to it..

1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.


This is Paul referring to the law. He quotes from Isaiah. So did Moses write Isaiah?


 
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LoveGodsWord

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1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. This is Paul referring to the law. He quotes from Isaiah. So did Moses write Isaiah?
You should consider the rest of the posts shared with you and the scriptures provided in regards to the Pentateuch which is the context of my posts and also from Isaiah 6:9-10 in regards to 1 Corinthians 14:21. I think you missed it by part quoting me again. The context of my posts was to the Mosiac book of the law written by Moses not the prophets (Deuteronomy 28:58; Deuteronomy 30:10; Deuteronomy 31:24-26 Joshua 23:6; 2 Chronicles 34:14-15 etc etc see post # 1210). You try and make it now about something I was never talking about. The application of 1 Corinthians "in the law it is written" is to all the law and the prophets. Perhaps this might help...

..............

Bengel's Gnomen
1 Corinthians 14:21. Νόμῳ, in the law) comprehending also the prophets.—ἐν ἑτερογλώσσοις καὶ ἐν χείλεσιν ἑτέροις) Isaiah 28:11, LXX. διὰ φαυλισμὸν χειλέων διὰ γλώσσης ἑτέρας, ἑτερογλώσσοις; masculine or neuter. The paraphrase accommodating the text of Isaiah to this passage of Paul may be as follows: This people do not hear Me, though I speak to them in the language, to which they have been accustomed; I will therefore speak to them in other tongues, namely, of the enemies that are sent against them; but even then they will not listen to me, comp. Jeremiah 5:15. Since God is said to speak in the tongues of enemies, the parity of reasoning holds good from them to the gift of tongues.—οὐδʼ οὕτως εἰσακούσονται μου) Isaiah 28:12, καὶ οὐκ ἠθέλησαν ἀκούειν, And they would not hear.

...............

Isaiah 28:7-18
[7], But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
[8], For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

Note:
the context is to the priest or pastors and prophets that have erred or are in error through strong drink? Application is to false teachings

[9], Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
[10], For precept must be on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, and there a little:

Note: the context is to those who God teaches knowledge. Application of course is to the truth of His Word.

[11], For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
[12], To whom he said, This is the rest with which you may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
[13], But the word of the LORD was to them precept on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
[14], Why hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
[15], Because you have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing whip shall pass through, it shall not come to us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Note: The warning is to those who reject Gods' Word and make lies there refuge

[16], Therefore thus said the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believes shall not make haste.

Note: Jesus the living Word of God is the chief cornerstone you builders rejected *Acts 4:10-12; Psalms 118:22; 1 Peter 2:4-8

[17], Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
[18], And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing whip shall pass through, then you shall be trodden down by it.

Note: God will sweep away all lies and false teachings that those who hide in and their covenant with death shall not stand.

.................

According to the scriptures, if we close our eyes and ears to hearing God's Word and are drunk with false teachings we make a covenant with death. Seeing we see not and hearing we hear not (Isaiah 6:9-10).

Hope this is helpful.
 
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tall73

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The application of 1 Corinthians "in the law it is written" is to all the law and the prophets.


Which was the point. The term "law" can be used for the whole thing.

Now you mentioned the book of the law of Moses. Please post something that uses that phrase and quotes Genesis.

And don't just link. Post the whole text for us to look at.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Which was the point. The term "law" can be used for the whole thing.

Now you mentioned the book of the law of Moses. Please post something that uses that phrase and quotes Genesis.

And don't just link. Post the whole text for us to look at.
For me it was not a point as my posts and scriptures provided were specifically to the Mosaic book of the law that was written by Moses. Not the prophets which were not the topic of discussion.
 
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