Cannot Be A Christian If...

ViaCrucis said:

I have no trouble with the idea that Christianity was present in the British Isles from quite early on, but that's a very different thing to a nation accepting Christianity as its official religion. There was no "British nation" at the time, the island of Britain itself was ruled by a variety of Celtic tribal kingdoms, which the Romans continued to butt heads with.

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You are right about that. Davy had said "Great Britain being the first nation to accept Jesus on a national scale, even before Rome." That claim fails on two counts, as you noted. And it was Armenia which was the first nation to become officially Christian, a few years before the Roman Empire granted toleration to the faith and almost a century before making it the official religion. The faith may have been brought to Britain as early as 37AD which would place it ahead of the establishing of the church in the city of Rome.

Tigger45 said:

Pure lack of compassion and resolve for the completely unnecessary plight of fellow Americans. Crony capitalism is only possible due to the apathetic nature of those who already have their needs met.

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No, it's just looking at it objectively. I never said that homelessness isn't a problem, or that you didn't have a valid point.

While some people reject capitalism, most liberal Americans understand its limitations, but would prefer to keep free enterprise but add policies to mitigate its bad effects. I suspect ViaCrucis was not actually proposing communism, but rather pointing out the damage done by capitalism if it isn’t accompanied by policies to deal with its bad effects.

I am not in favor of communism, but I have two problems with the OP. One is that not everything in it is specific to communism. The second is that Christianity isn’t tied to any specific economic system. I can think communism is a bad system without claiming that anyone advocating it has rejected Christianity.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

What are we talking about when we're talking about Capitalists? Someone whose a successful entrepreneur? A good worker who is skilled as his profession? There's nothing inherently unchristian about that.

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Usury and exploitation of wage earners is unbiblical, though. I get it that if someone agrees to a low wage, they've accepted it. But what if the system works to depress wages or corporations to fix them? Even as a capitalist, I think the earnings disparity between the top & bottom levels is vulgar these days. We're not just talking billionaires anymore either, but who'll be the first trillionaire (ie with AI)

hedrick said:

I am not in favor of communism, but I have two problems with the OP. One is that not everything in it is specific to communism. The second is that Christianity isn’t tied to any specific economic system. I can think communism is a bad system without claiming that anyone advocating it has rejected Christianity.

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An orthodox Marxist, however, would consider any idea of a god to be disqualifying. And "Capitalism" is the Marxist characterization of private enterprise.

But as with so many other "isms" that we discuss here, many people, both pro and con, use the terminology rather loosely.

Davy said:

You can't call exposure of Marx's Manifesto planks which are against Christianity as "political propaganda". IF... you do, then it means you are not against Communism. And you cannot be for BOTH Christ and Communism which is atheistic. So make up your mind.

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I am for Christ and out of obedience to my Lord I am for my neighbor as well.

If that makes me an "antichrist Communist" or whatever in your eyes, then so be it.

That said, you're use of Red Scare propaganda is old hat, and I don't take it seriously. My problems with Communism and my problems with Capitalism both derive from my own observations, my faith in Christ, and the historic testimony of the Christian religion; rooted deep in the Holy Scriptures.

-CryptoLutheran

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

What are we talking about when we're talking about Capitalists? Someone whose a successful entrepreneur? A good worker who is skilled as his profession? There's nothing inherently unchristian about that.

The problem with communism is that it has tied itself historically to the destruction of religion and the propagation of State atheism. Be it Soviet Union or PRC and others. Communism in it's efforts to do away with all class distinctions doesn't blend particularly well within Christianity either since only the most radical interpretations of Christianity ever advocated something similar and they were usually radicals.

Treating the two as if they were equal is a bit of a stretch. Capitalism like any human system has flaws, but Communism is far worse and no Christian can really believe it.

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Let's try looking at this objectively: Is Communism innately atheistic, or were the Stalinist, and Stalinist-influenced regimes anti-religion. Because since the mid-20th century the use of Red Scare propaganda has conflated the two as though they were the same thing.

And historically Communist nations, even if they still are "officially" Communist, really aren't. China, for example, isn't a Communist country, it's a Capitalist one. China is an autocratic capitalistic society.

Let's go further: Has there ever been a nation that abolished the government, and the workers actually owned the means of production? The answer to that question is no.

The Soviet Union didn't do either of those things, but under Marxist theory that's fundamental to what Communism is.

And, no, my opposition to Red Scare propaganda isn't because I'm a secret Commie; it's because the arguments are bad arguments. It is rooted in appeals to emotion, appeals to American exceptionalism, appeals to piety, etc. They are bad faith arguments, and the goal of such isn't to engender legitimate discussion on the subject matter of society-building; but rather the goal is fear-mongering, scape-goating, and attempting to nip actual conversation in the bud. It's the same reason the propagandists use all manner of bad faith arguments and non-arguments in order to avoid having real conversations about gun violence, race, the struggles of the poor, hungry, etc. Because fear based propaganda and appeals to emotion, piety, etc stop people from questioning the status quo.

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist" - Archbishop Helder Camara.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Let's try looking at this objectively: Is Communism innately atheistic, or were the Stalinist, and Stalinist-influenced regimes anti-religion. Because since the mid-20th century the use of Red Scare propaganda has conflated the two as though they were the same thing.

And historically Communist nations, even if they still are "officially" Communist, really aren't. China, for example, isn't a Communist country, it's a Capitalist one. China is an autocratic capitalistic society.

Let's go further: Has there ever been a nation that abolished the government, and the workers actually owned the means of production? The answer to that question is no.

The Soviet Union didn't do either of those things, but under Marxist theory that's fundamental to what Communism is.

And, no, my opposition to Red Scare propaganda isn't because I'm a secret Commie; it's because the arguments are bad arguments. It is rooted in appeals to emotion, appeals to American exceptionalism, appeals to piety, etc. They are bad faith arguments, and the goal of such isn't to engender legitimate discussion on the subject matter of society-building; but rather the goal is fear-mongering, scape-goating, and attempting to nip actual conversation in the bud. It's the same reason the propagandists use all manner of bad faith arguments and non-arguments in order to avoid having real conversations about gun violence, race, the struggles of the poor, hungry, etc. Because fear based propaganda and appeals to emotion, piety, etc stop people from questioning the status quo.

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist" - Archbishop Helder Camara.

-CryptoLutheran

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True Communism has never been tried huh?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

True Communism has never been tried huh?

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Can you identify an instance where Communism, as defined by Marx et al, has been put in total practice?

Engels spoke of a "withering away" of the state. A full implementation of Communism in a society involves the eradication and absence of the state and the coercion of law.

Has that ever been done?

Let me repeat myself, which I suspect I will have to do multiple times in this thread: I am not a Marxist. I am not a Communist. I do not believe that Marxism/Communism are possible, I consider it to be impossible. It is not possible for the eradication of the state and the total abolition of class distinction: As long as human beings exist in this present, fallen world there will be people who want power, who want more wealth. There can be no "withering away" of the state, because the cessation of the state will only result in the introduction of a new state--whether by a foreign power seeking conquest, or from within by ambitious, power-seeking individuals and groups.

I don't believe it's possible to have a Communist society. Any implementation of Marxism will almost certainly result in the failed programs of Stalinism, Maoism, et al as we saw in the 20th century. Revolution will not give rise to utopia--utopia is not possible here.

Ours is not a world where justice reigns, which is why St. Peter writes that the present age will cease with the fires of God's judgment, and that we look forward to that good and future world where justice does dwell (2 Peter 3:11-13).

But, as Christians, we do not merely sit here idly watching until the End comes, our Lord gave us the Parable of the Talents, ours is to be living here as Christ's disciples, actively in the world. For this reason, as our Lord teaches in the same place (Matthew 25), when the Day of Judgment comes how we treated the least of these is what is going to matter.

Are we living out our faith, in the hope of the resurrection and the life of the Age to Come, as a people of peace, love, and mercy; devoted to Jesus, His Gospel, and His work in the world? That we should be advocates for justice, mercy, peace, and compassion for our neighbor? Because absolutely we should.

God has commanded that we "act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly" before our God (Micah 6:8). We have the Beatitudes from the Lord's own mouth, that blessed are the poor, blessed are the hungry, blessed are the peacemakers.

What have Moses, the Prophets, our Lord Himself, and His Apostles all taught us? What have the Holy Fathers taught us?

That the Christian life is a life lived here in the world, in the midst of our neighbors. Called to love our enemies, to give freely, to hold no grudges, to return no one evil for evil, to love our neighbor, to live peaceably with all as much as it is up to us.

None of that is Communism. That's just Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

Davy said:

Leftist denunciation of Capitalism is about putting Capitalism only into a fanatical extremist bent, like a money-is-evil thing. That's not truly Capitalism, the way he's describing Capitalism is like some kind of occult money worship, as if money itself was evil. Apostle Paul said the 'love' of money is the root of all evil, not the idea of money.

Capitalism is about free enterprise, the right of property ownership. It's linked to what the U.S. founders called the "pursuit of happiness".

"All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness."
(John Adams)

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Now take that ability to be nuanced, and apply it to Communism, and your own Opening Post.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Can you identify an instance where Communism, as defined by Marx et al, has been put in total practice?

Engels spoke of a "withering away" of the state. A full implementation of Communism in a society involves the eradication and absence of the state and the coercion of law.

Has that ever been done?

Let me repeat myself, which I suspect I will have to do multiple times in this thread: I am not a Marxist. I am not a Communist. I do not believe that Marxism/Communism are possible, I consider it to be impossible. It is not possible for the eradication of the state and the total abolition of class distinction: As long as human beings exist in this present, fallen world there will be people who want power, who want more wealth. There can be no "withering away" of the state, because the cessation of the state will only result in the introduction of a new state--whether by a foreign power seeking conquest, or from within by ambitious, power-seeking individuals and groups.

I don't believe it's possible to have a Communist society. Any implementation of Marxism will almost certainly result in the failed programs of Stalinism, Maoism, et al as we saw in the 20th century. Revolution will not give rise to utopia--utopia is not possible here.

Ours is not a world where justice reigns, which is why St. Peter writes that the present age will cease with the fires of God's judgment, and that we look forward to that good and future world where justice does dwell (2 Peter 3:11-13).

But, as Christians, we do not merely sit here idly watching until the End comes, our Lord gave us the Parable of the Talents, ours is to be living here as Christ's disciples, actively in the world. For this reason, as our Lord teaches in the same place (Matthew 25), when the Day of Judgment comes how we treated the least of these is what is going to matter.

Are we living out our faith, in the hope of the resurrection and the life of the Age to Come, as a people of peace, love, and mercy; devoted to Jesus, His Gospel, and His work in the world? That we should be advocates for justice, mercy, peace, and compassion for our neighbor? Because absolutely we should.

God has commanded that we "act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly" before our God (Micah 6:8). We have the Beatitudes from the Lord's own mouth, that blessed are the poor, blessed are the hungry, blessed are the peacemakers.

What have Moses, the Prophets, our Lord Himself, and His Apostles all taught us? What have the Holy Fathers taught us?

That the Christian life is a life lived here in the world, in the midst of our neighbors. Called to love our enemies, to give freely, to hold no grudges, to return no one evil for evil, to love our neighbor, to live peaceably with all as much as it is up to us.

None of that is Communism. That's just Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

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I can only point to states which claim an adherence to that ideology. Perhaps they have all failed absolutely to live up to the idealism standard or perhaps that is the end result of Marxism/Communism. Marxist sympathizers or straight up Marxists all have the same basic reasoning you do when it comes to explaining away the Soviet Union or the PRC but I see it as the natural result Marxist ideals and the abolition of class.

Christianity, even Luther, was never so revolutionary as to do away with class distinctions. Paul told slaves to not worry about being slaves. Luther wrote a book against the Murdering thieving hordes of Peasants. Thus why I think Marxists/Communists have been utterly hostile to religion.

My question would be, this, can a person be both a Christian and a Marxist in your view? You might not believe in Communism but you do you allow for it's permissibility? Or do you treat Communism with the same disdain you treat the current Global/liberal capitalist system we live in?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

I can only point to states which claim an adherence to that ideology. Perhaps they have all failed absolutely to live up to the idealism standard or perhaps that is the end result of Marxism/Communism. Marxist sympathizers or straight up Marxists all have the same basic reasoning you do when it comes to explaining away the Soviet Union or the PRC but I see it as the natural result Marxist ideals and the abolition of class.

Christianity, even Luther, was never so revolutionary as to do away with class distinctions. Paul told slaves to not worry about being slaves. Luther wrote a book against the Murdering thieving hordes of Peasants. Thus why I think Marxists/Communists have been utterly hostile to religion.

My question would be, this, can a person be both a Christian and a Marxist in your view? You might not believe in Communism but you do you allow for it's permissibility? Or do you treat Communism with the same disdain you treat the current Global/liberal capitalist system we live in?

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Yes, a person can be both a Christian and a Marxist. Just as a person can be both a Christian and a Capitalist. I think both positions are fundamentally wrong, but I'm not the arbiter of who is or isn't a Christian based upon their economic philosophy.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Yes, a person can be both a Christian and a Marxist. Just as a person can be both a Christian and a Capitalist. I think both positions are fundamentally wrong, but I'm not the arbiter of who is or isn't a Christian based upon their economic philosophy.

-CryptoLutheran

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Do you have an example of a theological orthodox (in a general sense) Christian Marxist?

Sketcher said:

No, it's just looking at it objectively. I never said that homelessness isn't a problem, or that you didn't have a valid point.

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You can’t reply to a post with an antagonistic position and then defend yourself with statements you never made. You might want to keep that in mind in the future.

Tigger45 said:

You can’t reply to a post with an antagonistic position and then defend yourself with statements you never made. You might want to keep that in mind in the future.

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I wasn't being antagonistic to the point I saw you as making, since greater state control of the economy in the form of policies and regulation increases housing costs. I was just adding another exclamation point onto it, which has been historically demonstrated.

Davy said:

I agree with your first paragraph, but not your second one. The 10 items I listed are directly from Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto. So I wasn't playin' around with defining what Communism actually is, regardless of who reads those planks that appear before the hyphen marks.

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There are Christian Marxists. Sort of. But members of a movement don’t always agree with everything the founder said. I agree that Marx's analysis saw religion as wrong. But I think communism as an economic system isn’t inherently tied to atheism. In some sense the first Christians practiced communism. It’s also pretty clear that in its original form it will never work beyond a small, committed community. Current Marxists share a lot of methodology with Marx, but they don’t have quite the same proposed system.

hedrick said:

There are Christian Marxists. Sort of. But members of a movement don’t always agree with everything the founder said. I agree that Marx's analysis saw religion as wrong. But I think communism as an economic system isn’t inherently tied to atheism. In some sense the first Christians practiced communism. It’s also pretty clear that in its original form it will never work beyond a small, committed community. Current Marxists share a lot of methodology with Marx, but they don’t have quite the same proposed system.

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This assumes that Communism and Marxism are merely economic systems, instead of their economics being a part of their general philosophy. A general philosophy which tends towards the breakdown and dissolution of Christian Orthodoxy instead of establishing or supporting it.

Do you know of any orthodox Christians who call themselves Marxists or Communists?

Back to the title of the thread, you cannot be Christian unless you recieve Water Baptism.