WWJD Did Jesus Pray to Mary?

ViaCrucis

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God provided the Bible for us. What God did not provide, is us to pick a random interpretation of scripture some historical men decided was true. One is divinely inspired, the other is not.

God sent our Lord Jesus Christ, who founded His Church and called together a group of people calling them His Apostles. At our Lord's ascension He instructed those same Apostles to remain in Jerusalem until the coming of the Holy Spirit, which happened on Pentecost--afterward they were to go out and be His witnesses beginning in Jerusalem, then throughout Judea and Samaria, and then to the nations.

The Scriptures are those writings which this same Church which our Lord established have received, historically, as divinely inspired and to be read in the context of Christian worship. That's what the Bible is.

We can, of course, confess that these Scriptures have been received down through the centuries by the Providence of God, and in this way God has, through His Church, given His Church the Holy Scriptures of the Bible for our good and benefit--as St. Paul says in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, for correction, reproof, etc. How are the Scriptures to be used for correction, reproof, etc? Look at the context: Paul is instructing Timothy in matters of pastoral ministry. The rightly dividing the word of truth is told to Timothy; and Timothy is likewise told that the use of Scripture for the benefit of the Faithful--for teaching, correction, etc--as part of the pastoral ministry.

Does that mean these things are exclusively relevant to pastors? No, but the explicit context of 2 Timothy is pastoral.

And this is why the individual simply making up whatever they want the Scriptures to mean doesn't work--it's why biblical exegesis and interpretation is about the work of scholars, exegetes, theologians, etc.

The Bible isn't our personal toy, where we get to run off and go play a game of religion. The Bible is Sacred Scripture, and it is for the benefit, the edification, of the whole Church. And that means taking the Bible seriously. Not just saying whatever we want, whenever we want.

As a Lutheran I have just as much a problem with a single Pope in Rome claiming total authority in the Church; how much more should I then have a problem with ten million self-proclaimed popes running around. At least the Pope in Rome is held accountable to the structures in place in Rome. The self-pointed popes that run rampant throughout modern neo-Protestantism wish to be free of all accountability.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I never claimed to be an authority of any kind. There is simply a more and less correct way of doing things to arrive at a good conclusion. Eenie-meenie-minie-moe picking a historical figure to believe their theology is not the correct way to do things, according to the Bible. To seek one's own salvation with fear and trembling is what the Bible says to do.

So where does the Bible say to be unaccountable to God and His Church? Or to ignore the witness of the Faithful down through history?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way: When His mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 1:18

That is there. Before they came together, meaning they came together.


Before they were bethrothed. Coming together in marriage. It's saying that Mary was pregnant with Jesus before Joseph and Mary were wed together as husband and wife. That's the reason why Joseph intended to "put her away quietly", because he thought she had been unchaste, and in order to spare her a public spectacle, sought to divorce her quietly.

There's nothing here about whether Mary and Joseph had sex after she gave birth to our Lord, after they were married. That's simply not in the text.

These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brethren. Acts 1:14

That Jesus had adelphoi--brethren--isn't in question. The question is are they Mary's, our Lord's mother's, children. Scripture does not answer that question.

The children of Joseph from a previous marriage would be Jesus' adelphoi.

among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of Zebedee’s children.
Matthew 24:56

Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary and his brethren James and Joseph, and Simon and Judas? Matthew 13:55

Matthew 24:56 mentions a Mary, the mother of James and Joseph, she is not identified as the mother of Christ, but the mother of James and Joseph. This Mary is identified as the same Mary of Clopas (the wife of Clopas) mentioned in among the other Evangelists.

Yes, Matthew 13:55 does mention our Lord's mother, and His adelphoi, His brethren--James, Joseph, Simon, Judas.

Pay attention to what the text doesn't say here. It does not say that Jesus' brothers were the children of Mary.

It does not say these were Mary's children. It simply says that here were Jesus' mother and His brothers.

How am I reading into what isn't there? It is right there! If you cannot see it maybe you should read it again. I am not trying to make up things that are not true, but to me it is very clear that this is what the scripture is saying. Anyone correct me if I am wrong.

Because none of the passages you have shown say that Mary gave birth to other children beside Jesus. Look at them objectively.

You could argue that it is normal for married people to have sex, so it's entirely possible that these are Mary's children--but that is only a speculation on your part. The text doesn't actually say that.

Scripture never says that Mary had sex with Joseph.
Scripture never says that Mary had other children beside Jesus.

They simply don't say those things. And if you look at the Scriptural texts you posted, you'll see that they don't actually come anywhere close to saying what you think they are saying--that is you reading into them.

They mention Jesus' brothers. You are reading into that statement that they are the children of Mary. That's your additional meaning you are inserting into the text, not what the text itself actually says.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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disciple Clint

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Where do you find that info?
it is called studying theology. Knowing that character of God. Check it out find out what the character of God is and why He could not accept being part of anything sinful. It will require some study but it will be worth it.
 
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disciple Clint

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God provided the Bible for us. What God did not provide, is us to pick a random interpretation of scripture some historical men decided was true. One is divinely inspired, the other is not.
is the Bible is the only book that one should read to learn about God or would it be acceptable to have many books that help us to understand God and the scriptures, what do people who want to be pastors in recognized denominations study when they get a required degree in theology related subjects. I can certainly declare that it goes well beyond just reading the bible for 4, 6, or 8 years or more.
 
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Jaxxi

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The Bible clearly states she is full of grace, a sinner is never full of grace. God spent 9 months in her body, God cannot tolerate sin, He could not spend even 9 nano seconds in a sinner. So the God has clearly shown that Mary is without sin.
The sinners with Jesus on the cross went to heaven...

Surely He scorneth the scorners, but He giveth grace unto the lowly. Proverbs 3:34

Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, Romans 5:20

And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound in every good work. 2 Corinthians 9:8

It looks like even the commoners have access to grace and favor can be found in them by God. I do not think that proves anything.
 
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disciple Clint

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The sinners with Jesus on the cross went to heaven...

Surely He scorneth the scorners, but He giveth grace unto the lowly. Proverbs 3:34

Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, Romans 5:20

And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound in every good work. 2 Corinthians 9:8

It looks like even the commoners have access to grace and favor can be found in them by God. I do not think that proves anything.
There is no argument that God can provide grace that overcomes sin. that has nothing to do with Mary being full of grace. BUT even if the question of grace is disregarded, it is not disreputable that God is not going to have a sinner as His mother.
 
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Hammster

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it is called studying theology. Knowing that character of God. Check it out find out what the character of God is and why He could not accept being part of anything sinful. It will require some study but it will be worth it.
I have studied theology, and there’s nothing in theology that states that His mother had to be sinless. In fact, Genesis 3:15 alone would make your understanding faulty.
 
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Hammster

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My claims are will supported but I can find nothing to support the claims you have made, can you?
No, you just keep making these broad statements with any sort of support.
 
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Astroqualia

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is the Bible is the only book that one should read to learn about God or would it be acceptable to have many books that help us to understand God and the scriptures, what do people who want to be pastors in recognized denominations study when they get a required degree in theology related subjects. I can certainly declare that it goes well beyond just reading the bible for 4, 6, or 8 years or more.
The Bible is the only required book to learn about God, yes, it is the only one divinely inspired. I feel like I am just repeating myself because you seem to be ignoring what I'm saying.

And why would I be worried about what random pastors study before becoming pastors? I'm sure it's more than just the inspired Scriptures, which means that heresy works its way into a pastors repertoire.

I've said this several times before. Every denomination says different things. They all claim to have the truth. This is statistically impossible, and this all coming from the mouth of preachers. There is a better way to avoid this trouble, is to just and only study scripture itself.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Bible is the only required book to learn about God, yes, it is the only one divinely inspired. I feel like I am just repeating myself because you seem to be ignoring what I'm saying.

And why would I be worried about what random pastors study before becoming pastors? I'm sure it's more than just the inspired Scriptures, which means that heresy works its way into a pastors repertoire.

I've said this several times before. Every denomination says different things. They all claim to have the truth. This is statistically impossible, and this all coming from the mouth of preachers. There is a better way to avoid this trouble, is to just and only study scripture itself.

So if one only reads the Bible then they won't ever have a wrong view?

You should hang out on these forums for a bit, you'll be absolutely stunned when you discover that everyone who claims to "just believe the Bible and nothing but the Bible" never seem to be able to agree on anything. And the fun part is that they all claim that the Holy Spirit gave them the right understanding.

I'll actually go one step further. If you are only reading the Bible, and not doing any studying of history, culture, language, theology, etc, then you aren't going to understand the Bible. The Bible isn't magic, it has to be read and taken seriously.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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timothyu

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The Bible isn't magic, it has to be read and taken seriously.
And from beginning to end it basically says (along with accompanying filler to show the pros and coins of both sides of the issue) put the will of God before the will of man. Jesus made it his sole Gospel. Only churches have tried to make a business out of that and to do it they had to put their will first. Now people are more defensive of their particular denomination than of the will of God.
 
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Astroqualia

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So if one only reads the Bible then they won't ever have a wrong view?

You should hang out on these forums for a bit, you'll be absolutely stunned when you discover that everyone who claims to "just believe the Bible and nothing but the Bible" never seem to be able to agree on anything. And the fun part is that they all claim that the Holy Spirit gave them the right understanding.

I'll actually go one step further. If you are only reading the Bible, and not doing any studying of history, culture, language, theology, etc, then you aren't going to understand the Bible. The Bible isn't magic, it has to be read and taken seriously.

-CryptoLutheran
But that isn't what they do. What they do is learn from words from pastors and such who tell them "this is what the Bible says", a part of those aforementioned different denominations that all teach different things, and all teach they they teach the truth. THAT is why you see that in these forums, because each of them believing different things were told what they were taught is scriptural when it is not, which has many claiming that the Bible supports what they say. And they do not go into the Bible themselves to test those beliefs, as evidenced when you can easily disprove many falsehoods propagated by folks about the Bible by using only the Bible itself, as their ideas about one part of the Bible is directly contradicted in another, which doesn't mean the Bible is wrong, it means their teaching and belief about the Bible is wrong.

I do listen to many different opinions about scripture, and have a general idea of what is promoted and not promoted in scripture about several scriptural subjects, in order to try and honestly figure out what Jesus wants us to know. The problem is, some have a higher standard of integrity about understanding scripture [some seek the truth, others seek to tickle their ears] than others. I try my best to find what Jesus wanted us to know. Not just in scripture, but in life as well.

Also, studying what man says about scripture, to read scripture within the lens of fallible man, is the very definition of ear tickling theology. God told us what He wants us to know. This is exactly why denominations exist, because people hold to what past men say about scripture, instead of holding scripture to what it very plainly says.
 
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Astroqualia

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And from beginning to end it basically says (along with accompanying filler to show the pros and coins of both sides of the issue) put the will of God before the will of man. Only churches have tried to make a business out of that and to do it they had to put their will first. Now people are more defensive of their particular denomination than of the will of God.
This is entirely correct.
 
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prodromos

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The Bible is the only required book to learn about God, yes, it is the only one divinely inspired. I feel like I am just repeating myself because you seem to be ignoring what I'm saying.

And why would I be worried about what random pastors study before becoming pastors? I'm sure it's more than just the inspired Scriptures, which means that heresy works its way into a pastors repertoire.

I've said this several times before. Every denomination says different things. They all claim to have the truth. This is statistically impossible, and this all coming from the mouth of preachers. There is a better way to avoid this trouble, is to just and only study scripture itself.
And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
2 Peter 1:19-21​
 
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Astroqualia

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And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
2 Peter 1:19-21​
You entirely misunderstand what I said.
I'm seeking to find the objective interpretation as Jesus would tell us right now in english; I seek the truth about everything. I am well aware that me choosing what I want to cherrypick out of scripture is wrong, that is what this verse is saying. It's literally telling you to seek the objectively true interpretation.

What I don't do, is just randomly pick a denomination that exists as to choose what I believe, which seems to be where you and Clint are coming from. The prayer and seeking with the spirit will lead you to believe the plainly stated words of scripture, if you truly do want to know the truth.
 
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ViaCrucis

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But that isn't what they do. What they do is learn from words from pastors and such who tell them "this is what the Bible says", a part of those aforementioned different denominations that all teach different things, and all teach they they teach the truth. THAT is why you see that in these forums, because each of them believing different things were told what they were taught is scriptural when it is not, which has many claiming that the Bible supports what they say. And they do not go into the Bible themselves to test those beliefs, as evidenced when you can easily disprove many falsehoods propagated by folks about the Bible by using only the Bible itself, as their ideas about one part of the Bible is directly contradicted in another, which doesn't mean the Bible is wrong, it means their teaching and belief about the Bible is wrong.

I do listen to many different opinions about scripture, and have a general idea of what is promoted and not promoted in scripture about several scriptural subjects, in order to try and honestly figure out what Jesus wants us to know. The problem is, some have a higher standard of integrity about understanding scripture [some seek the truth, others seek to tickle their ears] than others. I try my best to find what Jesus wanted us to know. Not just in scripture, but in life as well.

Also, studying what man says about scripture, to read scripture within the lens of fallible man, is the very definition of ear tickling theology. God told us what He wants us to know. This is exactly why denominations exist, because people hold to what past men say about scripture, instead of holding scripture to what it very plainly says.

Let's try an experiment:

Using only Scripture, what does Jesus say the bread and the wine of His Supper are?
Using only Scripture, what is Baptism, and what is the purpose of Baptism?

A more interesting experiment:

Using only Scripture, how can we know which books are Scripture and which books are not Scripture?

And yes, I would be more than happy to answer these questions using my own stipulation of only using Scripture--but I humbly ask that you go first.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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