Creationism/Evolution

JacksBratt

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No, evolution explains HOW the world was created.
The Bible just says THAT it was created - by God.

I'm not trying to make the Bible fit anything. The Bible reveals God to us; his nature, his will and his plan. It tells us clearly that the universe, and everything we see around us, came about because God wanted it to be so; he spoke, and it happened. The Bible doesn't say whether it happened instantly or over many years. That is not its purpose; it is not a scientific textbook. When we read it, it sounds as if it was all instant, and within a short space of time - i.e one minute the universe didn't exist; 6 days later it consisted of stars, planets and a fully populated earth, covered in vegetation and water. That may have been the case, or it may have taken millions of years to get to that point.

Whichever position a person has, nothing changes the fact that they are sinners and can only be saved through Jesus.
I believe, if you read it, the Bible most certainly states "how" it was created.
God even went so far as to state "there was evening, there was morning, the first day... the second day, the third day" and so on.
God ensured that He could not be misunderstood.

Also, for those that think creation is a "story" passed on down through the generations and has errors like the game of "broken telephone"... I have some information for you.

Since people lived for so many years back then... Adam knew Methuselah and Methuselah knew Shem and Shem knew Abraham.

This was not an ancient story.. It was like me telling my son what my Grandfather told me....That's very recent.

Evolution ignores and won't even broach the topic of how life started. Only what happened after that.
It cannot and will not attempt it.
It also cannot explain how this organism replicated or ate food ... from the start.
Nor can it explain where it's DNA came from.. it's DNA is just as complex as yours... which is an encyclopedia of information.
Not to mention that DNA is constructed of proteins that are very complex and would never form at random... and then come together in endless complex array of order and composition more complex than the blue print of any major construction.

The whole idea is a Swiss cheese of wishes, presumptions and assumptions.

Evolution takes more faith than taking Genesis as it was meant.... literally.

How can you believe that Christ walked on water, fed 5000 with two fish and some buns, healed a little girl from miles away, turned water into the best wine, cured blind, lame, leper and a woman as she touched His robe.... and not believe the creation account.

I believe that if the Bible did not say "Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved"... people would find a way to say Christ isn't necessary for salvation.

Since our salvation is dependent on all the works and miracles and scientifically impossible things He did... people accept it as truth...

Since salvation is not dependent, directly, by Genesis.. people feel like they can reject from beig a true story.

Jack
 
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Strong in Him

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The root of this issue is people actually don't believe what Bible says ,

Well I don't know who you have in mind when you make that statement, but I can assure you that I do.
"In the beginning God created ..... " This universe is not random, a chance event that happened when two random atoms collided, or whatever (I'm not a scientist.) It was created by GOD, who had a method, a purpose and a will to create. Everything that he created was good, or very good, Genesis 1:31.

they try to often put modern things science falsely so called teach and mix it with Bible .

I'm not sure what that sentence means.

Clearly we know more about science and the origin of the world than the first people on earth did. God has given people the ability to question, investigate, and discover more about his amazing creation. The Bible is not a science textbook; it's purpose is not to explain HOW things were created by God.

God said wisdom of this world is foolishnes with God yet they try to make it wise and make themselves wise and on top of it bash people who literally believe what the God's word says its pretty sad.

What's sad is that there are people, not necessarily you, who say that any person who does not believe that the world was created in 6 literal days does not believe Genesis, therefore does not believe the Bible, and therefore is not, and cannot be, a Christian. Some go even further and say that they have been led astray by the devil. That is nonsense.
There are scientists who believe in evolution and have studied the science behind it, who are also Christians and both believe the Bible and appreciate God's creation.
 
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Strong in Him

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I believe, if you read it, the Bible most certainly states "how" it was created.

Maybe you can explain it then, and show me the verses.
When God said "let the land produce living creatures ...." Genesis 1:24, HOW did that happen?
Did he create all kinds of fish, birds, animals and insects and they all immediately appeared, fully grown - or did he make 3 different species of bird, fish etc which produced other species as they mated with each other?
Did he create fully grown frogs, or tadpoles; cubs or adult lions? Did he create saplings or fully grown trees that, if you cut them down had no rings in them because they were brand new, 1 minute old creations?
When he said "let there be lights in the sky ....", Genesis 1:14, did the massive ball of light and fire that is the sun appear from nowhere, or did God have to first make a few chemicals that he threw into the air and became the sun - just suspended there in space?
How did all these things appear after God spoke?
HOW did God create man from dust? I've read of people who, somehow, manage to carve things out of specks of dust with the aid of a powerful magnifier, but that creation still remains dust. How did mankind go from being a tiny speck of dust to being living, breathing 5 foot + high humans? Which Bible verses explain that process?

Even Job chapters 38-41 which has fantastic descriptions of the sea being shut up behind doors, or "tipping over the water jars of heaven", Job 38:37, or of horses "leaping like locusts", Job 39:20, does not explain these things.

God even went so far as to state "there was evening, there was morning, the first day... the second day, the third day" and so on.

Yet the lights in the sky to "separate the day from the night", were only created on "day" 4. How does that work then; where are the verses which explain it?

Also, for those that think creation is a "story" passed on down through the generations and has errors like the game of "broken telephone"... I have some information for you.

Since people lived for so many years back then... Adam knew Methuselah and Methuselah knew Shem and Shem knew Abraham.

Yes; and?
No one's said that they didn't exist.

Evolution ignores and won't even broach the topic of how life started.

No, but the Bible does.
The Bible doesn't explain HOW all these things were created. Only that God spoke and somehow, at some point, they came to exist - they came into being because God spoke, wanted and planned that they should.

Evolution cannot explain origins - God; the Bible does not explain process - either evolution or something else. It could have done if it were a science textbook, but it isn't.

Evolution takes more faith than taking Genesis as it was meant.... literally.

I'm not a scientist, but I don't think so - and there is nothing in the Bible which says that Genesis 21 has to be taken literally.

Years ago when I was on the "Religion" boards of the BBC website, there was a creationist who often argued that the earth was made in 6 literal days because God said that it was, and that anything which suggested that the earth was older than 6,000 years old - like fossils - was either a lie planted by the devil or was a test from God to see who would believe in him.
The problem was that he found himself in debate with people who had studied, and were qualified in, astronomy, geology, zoology, palaeontology etc who tore his arguments to pieces. The end result was that, far from bearing witness to Scripture, this man just made himself look foolish - his arguments were easily shot down and he had no answer for the scientific facts only "what you are saying/showing me isn't true; the Bible is."

If Genesis 1 is to be taken literally, then everything was created within 72 hours - after about a fortnight, the tallest tree would only be 2 weeks and 3 days old, assuming it had been created fully formed. Although how anyone could measure an hour when a) God is outside time, b) the sun and moon weren't created til day 4 and c) humans weren't created until day 6 and had no concept of when everything else was created, is anyone's guess.

Since our salvation is dependent on all the works and miracles and scientifically impossible things He did... people accept it as truth...

No, our salvation is dependant on us accepting that we can never do enough, or anything, to atone for our sin and accept God's love, and that all is possible because Jesus went to the cross for us. Salvation is through Jesus alone, who died to reconcile us to God.
What a person believes about the origins of the universe, doesn't change that - creationists are sinners and need the Lord just as much as evolutionists do.
 
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Chi.C

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So if Paul is making it clear that it is not a story, but it's true, how can theistic evolution be reconciled as a genuine Christian belief?
When God and Anti-god share the same room together and then we can worship both at the same time like some Shrodinger cat thing.
 
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chad kincham

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Christianity is a belief that Jesus was Christ.

Christianity is not taking every verse in the Bible as scientific or the complete set of cultural ideas of Paul.

Does evolution make it impossible that Jesus is Christ? No.
Does taking first chapters of Genesis as a mythological drama make it impossible that Jesus is Christ? No.

Jesus taught and accepted Adam and Eve and the Genesis account as literal and accurate, along with everything that Moses wrote.
 
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chad kincham

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The problem was that he found himself in debate with people who had studied, and were qualified in, astronomy, geology, zoology, palaeontology etc who tore his arguments to pieces. The end result was that, far from bearing witness to Scripture, this man just made himself look foolish - his arguments were easily shot down and he had no answer for the scientific "w

Yet there are creationists with PhDs who do have those answers and give them.
 
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Thomas White

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When God and Anti-god share the same room together and then we can worship both at the same time like some Shrodinger cat thing.

Except evolution is neither worshipped nor is anti-God. In fact, it points to a designer.
 
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Thomas White

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Except evolution exists for the sole purpose of negating any need for the existence of God, and replace Him with time and chance. Trying to make the Bible fit the metaphysical philosophy of naturalistic materialism called evolution, is a mistake.

The evolutionists don’t respect you for attempting to do so, either.

I am an evolutionist. Do I not respect myself for reconciling it with Scripture? Am I using evolution for the sole purpose of negating the existence of God?

You paint with broad brush.
 
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Strong in Him

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Yet there are creationists with PhDs who do have those answers and give them.

There may be; I'm just telling you what I saw on a particular forum.

There are also scientists who are born again Christians, and believe in evolution.
John Stott once said that it was for the scientists to explain HOW God created - the Bible doesn't do that; that is not its purpose.
 
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Chi.C

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Except evolution is neither worshipped nor is anti-God. In fact, it points to a designer.
If evolutionary theory says that there was no historical Adam, would you rewrite the Scriptures? Is life created by abiogenesis? If you answer yes to these questions are you not recognizing the supremacy of evolution over God, hence worship?
 
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Strong in Him

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If evolutionary theory says that there was no historical Adam, would you rewrite the Scriptures?

The Hebrew word Adam means "man". It was not a name at that point; the first male human was referred to as man, or the man.
Someone must have been the first man - so it's not possible to say that Adam didn't exist.
 
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hedrick

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This then leads to the problem, if Paul was wrong about using Adam to explain why we have a sin nature and why Jesus had to die as the second Adam, how do we even then know we have the right Gospel at all?
Paul isn’t the Messiah. He got the good news from Jesus, mostly through talking to people who knew Jesus, but to some extent from his own experience with Jesus. But as far as we know from his letters snd Acts, those experiences were fairly brief, so they don’t include all of Jesus’ message.
 
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JacksBratt

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Maybe you can explain it then, and show me the verses.
When God said "let the land produce living creatures ...." Genesis 1:24, HOW did that happen?
Did he create all kinds of fish, birds, animals and insects and they all immediately appeared, fully grown - or did he make 3 different species of bird, fish etc which produced other species as they mated with each other?
Did he create fully grown frogs, or tadpoles; cubs or adult lions? Did he create saplings or fully grown trees that, if you cut them down had no rings in them because they were brand new, 1 minute old creations?
When he said "let there be lights in the sky ....", Genesis 1:14, did the massive ball of light and fire that is the sun appear from nowhere, or did God have to first make a few chemicals that he threw into the air and became the sun - just suspended there in space?
How did all these things appear after God spoke?

The verses are there. He created it all... the same way He turned the water to wine and fed the 5000 and healed the blind.... Or... do you want to medically, scientifically and the chemistry on all of His other miracles.
Birds, trees, flowers, cows, elephants... instant adults.

HOW did God create man from dust? I've read of people who, somehow, manage to carve things out of specks of dust with the aid of a powerful magnifier, but that creation still remains dust. How did mankind go from being a tiny speck of dust to being living, breathing 5 foot + high humans? Which Bible verses explain that process?

I believe the bible states that He did it with His hands. He is the only being, in the universe, that can create and give life. Even the life of a conceived child is just the combined life of a living sperm and an living egg... that got life from another sperm and egg... which got life from... well.. you know...


In the end.. it all comes down to that one breath of life into Adam... Ya.... Eve's life came from Adam's living rib. All human life started with the breath of life that made "man" a living being.

If you want to know all the details of the powers and all that He used.. you'll have to ask Him.

Even Job chapters 38-41 which has fantastic descriptions of the sea being shut up behind doors, or "tipping over the water jars of heaven", Job 38:37, or of horses "leaping like locusts", Job 39:20, does not explain these things.

I don't have to know the procedure and chemical formulae or the methods and chemistry of all that God did at these various times.. He created science, chemistry, electrical and magnetic properties.. Even time... He lives outside of all of these and has total domination over them.



Yet the lights in the sky to "separate the day from the night", were only created on "day" 4. How does that work then; where are the verses which explain it?

I don't think it matters what day they were created on. Is there anything on this earth that cannot live with or without light for a couple of days even a week?

I have no idea why this stumps people or is even an issue.. God was on site at work... In total control. Christ was probably the source of light.. before the sun anyway..


Yes; and?
This was to show that the information, in the Bible is not hearsay. It is eyewitness account from Adam as told to his descendants... not a folk tale passed on around the campfire... The "and?" part is answered by the part of my post that you left out....."This was not an ancient story.. It was like me telling my son what my Grandfather told me....That's very recent."

No one's said that they didn't exist.
Did I say that they did? My point is explained above.



No, but the Bible does.
Absolutely... I would rather believe an account that gives an explanation and an origin.. Not one that starts off with life and will not give an answer as how life got here.

It's like telling the officer your sorry for speeding and when he asks where you got the car you just say... "That's not important... let's just start with the fact that we have the car......

I don't accept the "Well, after the living organism mutated" without explaining where this "organism" got it's life.

It's one simple fact that the whole idea hinges on. It can't start with "don't worry about that.. let's just say it's alive and not worry about the how.... er... cause we have absolutely no idea.. so we'll skip that and get to how it mutated into thousands of other living organisms over billions of years."

Without life... the theory is dead.


The Bible doesn't explain HOW all these things were created. Only that God spoke and somehow, at some point, they came to exist - they came into being because God spoke, wanted and planned that they should.

Yep, there you go.. God didn't tell us how other than... He spoke.... it happened. That's how powerful He is. It's really not important to know the rest. If you believe that this is what happened and that He is a just and righteous God... who cares?

Evolution cannot explain origins - God; the Bible does not explain process - either evolution or something else. It could have done if it were a science textbook, but it isn't.

Then why is Darwin's book called "The ORIGINS of the species"? The bible doesn't state the process because there was none... God spoke and wow... a cow.

Evolution doesn't explain the origin. The bible gives the origin. Evolution only gives theoretical, hypothetical list of proposed processes..with no explanation of where the "life" part came from.

All of which contradict the fact that nothing moves from chaos to order.. all things move from order to chaos.



I'm not a scientist, but I don't think so - and there is nothing in the Bible which says that Genesis 21 has to be taken literally.

So at what point do you start taking the biblical text literally? When the axe head floats, the donkey talks, the Red Sea opens up, the burning bush, the lions mouths are sealed, the fiery furnace doesn't burn the men, Elijah brings the fire from heaven, Christ died and rose again?????

I prefer to believe that the bible is literal... from Genesis1:1. This doesn't create a single issue.

Oh and as far as the "Christ is a door" argument.. It's basic comprehension of context.

Years ago when I was on the "Religion" boards of the BBC website, there was a creationist who often argued that the earth was made in 6 literal days because God said that it was, and that anything which suggested that the earth was older than 6,000 years old - like fossils - was either a lie planted by the devil or was a test from God to see who would believe in him.
The problem was that he found himself in debate with people who had studied, and were qualified in, astronomy, geology, zoology, palaeontology etc who tore his arguments to pieces. The end result was that, far from bearing witness to Scripture, this man just made himself look foolish - his arguments were easily shot down and he had no answer for the scientific facts only "what you are saying/showing me isn't true; the Bible is."

Well, very few of us that hold to the 6 days of creation have the education to debate those in those fields.
Instead, I, who works at applied science.... understand that any analytical instrument that I have ever operated... must be calibrated in order to be accurate. For this to take place you must have known accredited standards for the metric you are going to measure. I can buy a thermometer from a store and it will read boiling water at 90 degrees.. So.. I calibrate it by a known standard... and adjust it to read 100 degrees in boiling water.

Just what are these people using as a calibration standard to tell them that something is 2 billion years old... This method is, although accepted.... very unreliable.

When it is all boiled down.. I'll take the words of God over any guy in a white lab coat.

And... there are people in those fields that still hold to 6 days of creation. You won't see many of them shouting from a mountain top as they would lose their credentials, funding, tenure... career.

If Genesis 1 is to be taken literally, then everything was created within 72 hours - after about a fortnight, the tallest tree would only be 2 weeks and 3 days old, assuming it had been created fully formed. Although how anyone could measure an hour when a) God is outside time, b) the sun and moon weren't created til day 4 and c) humans weren't created until day 6 and had no concept of when everything else was created, is anyone's guess.

Simply due to the facts that:
1/ Just because God is outside the constraints of time.. does not mean He doesn't understand it and is able to measure it and state that "there was evening and morning, the first day"..
2/ The sun and moon are not necessary to measure time. They do not dictate what time is. They mark it. God created a "day" and set up the sun and moon to work within it.. but... That doesn't mean that if the sun blew up.. your clock wouldn't know what an hour was. A day is a day is a day.. before the sun.. God just synchronized it with His already existing time.
3/Adam was created and taught what happened.. Is God's word not good enough? God even got Adam to name all the animals.... God and Adam and Eve had a pretty close relationship. It was not "anyone's guess".

But.. you are free to believe as you do. These are my opinions.

No, our salvation is dependant on us accepting that we can never do enough, or anything, to atone for our sin and accept God's love, and that all is possible because Jesus went to the cross for us. Salvation is through Jesus alone, who died to reconcile us to God.

You missed my point.

You solidly believe that Christ died on the cross and rose again, conquering death.. as payment for your sins... because it is written. As are all of the other totally scientifically impossible things that Jesus did.

You believe these other contradictions in and of science.. because ... if you did not.. you would have no basis for your salvation

You can toss out and disregard these other contradictions in and of science in Genesis because your salvation is not dependent on them.

However, you cannot cherry pick what unscientific writings you can or cannot believe... The bible is the word of God.. If parts of it are false.. how do you know which ones..

So.. you hold on to a few miracles of science.. your soul is safe... and you question and contradict and argue the rest.

As for myself.. I'll believe all of it.

Let me ask you one question..

Is there anything in the Genesis 6 days of creation that would be impossible for God?

What a person believes about the origins of the universe, doesn't change that

True.. However we are not to be stumbling blocks are we?
If you make a mockery of Genesis and state that the wisdom of men trumps the words of the bible.. a non believer would rightly question all the words in the book.
You cheery pick and accept enough to grant your belief in salvation through the blood of Christ.
Non believers have no salvation. Ridiculing the content of the Bible.. may keep them from ever seeing that all of it is true.. It may also lead them to believe non of it.

I don't believe that those tricked into nonacceptance of Genesis are not saved... Not at all..

I just don't know why they would hold on to the wisdom of the creation when the creator has told them what happened.



creationists are sinners and need the Lord just as much as evolutionists do.

Absolutely.
 
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hedrick

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If evolutionary theory says that there was no historical Adam, would you rewrite the Scriptures? Is life created by abiogenesis? If you answer yes to these questions are you not recognizing the supremacy of evolution over God, hence worship?
That conclusion doesn’t follow. Most things in the world happen in accordance with natural law. That doesn’t mean God is not responsible. If we reduce Gods responsibility to,a few things we can’t explain by natural law, God gets slowly squeezed out as we learn more. That’s silly.
 
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Chi.C

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The Hebrew word Adam means "man". It was not a name at that point; the first male human was referred to as man, or the man.
Someone must have been the first man - so it's not possible to say that Adam didn't exist.
Right now, the current consensus is there was no Adam and no first human. The minimum population is 10000 apelike things as a bottleneck - this is from Population Genetics. Evolutionary theory is now based on populations not individuals. Your statement is inconsistent with both Genesis and evolutionary theory.
 
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nli

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Just because radioactive decay occurs at one rate today doesn't mean that it has always decayed at that rate. Have you seen the results for multiple methods of dating that include radiometric dating. Some very different dates have occurred. Radiometric dating is unreliable and drastically overstates the true age. It assumes no daughter elements at the start and assumes constant decay rates.

Have you considered that the speed of light has only been measured at our time and place in the universe? Light can be slowed down. Black holes are one example. Einstein's relativity theory showed us that everything including time is relative. Slow light speeds give us overstated ages.

Check your science again. Believe Genesis 1-11. Science can't put history into a test tube. Science depends upon observation of repeatable processes. History includes many events that happened once and won't be repeated. Genesis 1-11 is history. The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is history. We know about events from history. Science can't show us history. Science can't extrapolate to tell us what will happen tomorrow. Who says that science can extrapolate accurately regarding the ancient past? Science may presume about the pas but it can't show us the past.
 
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Chi.C

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That conclusion doesn’t follow. Most things in the world happen in accordance with natural law. That doesn’t mean God is not responsible. If we reduce Gods responsibility to,a few things we can’t explain by natural law, God gets slowly squeezed out as we learn more. That’s silly.
Explain abiogenesis - once unliving molecules assembling naturally to a living organism. Where is God in the explanation? Genesis accounts that God breathed life in Adam and he became a living soul. Can you see a conflict between Scripture and evolution?

Big bang cosmology - consistent with God creating universe from nothing (superseding the steady state universe).
Cosmological constant - on the order of 10^-122 and you can't change it too much or the universe collapses or expands too quickly to from stars, galaxys and life (fine tuning arguments for Design)
etc
...

All sciences that obey the paradigm indicate (not prove) Design. It grows with each new discovery and test. My question is why is your BELIEF in evolution squeezing out your belief in God? Even Nietsche devout atheist understood the metaphysical impact of Darwinism. So why can you not?
 
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