Creationism/Evolution

Simon D

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Taodeching

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I would have said it's quite disingenuous to ignore the teachings of Paul and Jesus who both quote from Genesis, but it is not disingenuous to discuss reconciling their position with the idea of theistic evolution.

1 Cor 15 tells us that as a man came death (Adam) by a man has also came the resurrection of the dead (Jesus).

If evolution is true we have to consider changing this to mean that by mankind sin entered the world, then how can the analogy be continued unless we say by mankind that the world was redeemed. This isn't the case, it's redeemed by Jesus, one man.

First the Bible has been seen wrongly because people act like knowledge at one time, this time in the ancient world is stagnant and can not change. Secondly seeing the Bible as literal. Thirdly as if the English language is the language of antiquity. Fourthly as if the ancients understood things the way modern man does.

1 Corinthians has nothing to doing with viewing the Bible the wrong way. Your right though we suffer the consequences but not the guilt of the first sin of Adam and Eve, which is called Ancestral sin.

I could care less how humans came about, my life is one of a Christian not an orginist
 
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Simon D

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First the Bible has been seen wrongly because people act like knowledge at one time, this time in the ancient world is stagnant and can not change. Secondly seeing the Bible as literal. Thirdly as if the English language is the language of antiquity. Fourthly as if the ancients understood things the way modern man does.

1 Corinthians has nothing to doing with viewing the Bible the wrong way. Your right though we suffer the consequences but not the guilt of the first sin of Adam and Eve, which is called Ancestral sin.

I could care less how humans came about, my life is one of a Christian not an orginist
Well the explanation of Jesus's death is explained by Paul by referring to Adam so it is important to what we believe as Christians.
 
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Cis.jd

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Hello!

I have a question and I would appreciate the input of the good people of this fine internet community!

My question is, is evolution compatible with a belief in Christianity?

So for some background to my research on this, I understand there is strict creationism (Genesis is literal), then there is the position that it is just a story, and that life evolved through theistic evolution. It's even said that Genesis creation was never to be taken at least fully literally.

So here is my thing, if evolution is true, why did Paul say,

'For Adam was first formed, then Eve.' 1 Tim 2:13.

It is clear that Paul believed in a literal creation of Adam, then Eve.

So if Paul is making it clear that it is not a story, but it's true, how can theistic evolution be reconciled as a genuine Christian belief?
Sure.

Think about your own body. Lets start with your teeth. What is it's most known purpose? To eat. sure it's needed for your dialect, but in the end it's most known function is to break down food. In fact, your teeth are all different because they serve a different purpose for eating, your fangs tear flesh and your molars break it down, your saliva also plays a role.

Lets go to the animals. There are animals that have natural features that help them to eat, hunt, defend themselves, etc...

Now, in the beginning. Why would we need all of that, when prior to Adam sinning, there was no death? Why need teeth, goosebumps, sweat glands, body hair when we can't die?

Whatever was in Genesis is definitely not the same world. You can make the case that God created things instantly, but Adam and Eve and everything else had to physically change once they fell because all life physically submits to nature. Whether you want to believe Evolution happened after the forming of dust, or after the garden is up to you. Point, is not only is it compatible but christians can not just reject for any reason other than the bad theology and bible fanaticism
 
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coffee4u

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Hello!

I have a question and I would appreciate the input of the good people of this fine internet community!

My question is, is evolution compatible with a belief in Christianity?

So for some background to my research on this, I understand there is strict creationism (Genesis is literal), then there is the position that it is just a story, and that life evolved through theistic evolution. It's even said that Genesis creation was never to be taken at least fully literally.

So here is my thing, if evolution is true, why did Paul say,

'For Adam was first formed, then Eve.' 1 Tim 2:13.

It is clear that Paul believed in a literal creation of Adam, then Eve.

So if Paul is making it clear that it is not a story, but it's true, how can theistic evolution be reconciled as a genuine Christian belief?

No it is not compatible, but people close their eyes to how they don't mesh together and force it in anyway.
 
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Navair2

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My question is, is evolution compatible with a belief in Christianity?
Do you believe God, who cannot lie, or do you believe men who can?
 
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trophy33

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The verse says that by one man sin entered the world.
Because he was first. Thats logical. If you had be first, the sin would enter the world through you. Its nothing mysterious.
That refers to the first sin, which is the original, because it's the first.
But thats not the doctrine of the original sin. The doctrine of original sin is that we all sinned in Adam and therefore there is some generational guilt just because we are his children. That we bear his sin.

Your link hinges on the idea that one word has been misinterpreted by Augustine in one verse (Romans 5:12). (Think back to 1 Tim 2:13).
You did not read the link properly. The link was about the doctrine of the original sin - this doctrine is a wrong translation of Augustine. 1 Tim 2:13 just mentions the order of creation so it has nothing to do with it.

I'm not sure how we got to this place, I had a quick recap and it appears you were saying that Paul could quote Genesis as any other myth (you tied this in with something about long hair on men being a medical Greek myth).
Yes, its a funny story. In the times of Paul, it was a generally accepted fact that female's fertility is hidden in their hair. Therefore the longer hair they had, the more fertile they were supposed to be. It transformed into idea that hair are women's reproductive organ.
Therefore it was shameful for a man to have this women's reproductive organ (long hair).
Paul takes this obviously wrong idea and says "its what the nature teaches us".

I get it: evolution (theistic or otherwise) can only be incorporated into Christianity if we rewrite the Bible. This was pretty much what I was thinking. Thanks for your input :)
If you have some kind of anxiety imagining that not everything in the Bible happened in the physical world exactly as written, then the natural sciences are not for you, at the moment.
Later in your life you can base your faith on something more robust than just the literal reading of the English Bible. For example on the spirit in you, your own walking with God etc.
It will still be Christianity, but not the fundamentalist American branch of it.

Summary: Christianity is compatible with evolution (and other natural sciences like astronomy, physics etc.), because the basics of Christianity are very simple and the spiritual realities are more important than the physical one or than the ancient cosmology.

But the literal reading of the Bible or taking every word in the Bible as dictated by God, probably not. Its as incompatible as the ancient cosmology is incompatible with the ISS circling around our heads right now.
 
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Hmm

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Simon D

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Because he was first. Thats logical. If you had be first, the sin would enter the world through you. Its nothing mysterious.

But thats not the doctrine of the original sin. The doctrine of original sin is that we all sinned in Adam and therefore there is some generational guilt just because we are his children. That we bear his sin.


You did not read the link properly. The link was about the doctrine of the original sin - this doctrine is a wrong translation of Augustine. 1 Tim 2:13 just mentions the order of creation so it has nothing to do with it.


Yes, its a funny story. In the times of Paul, it was a generally accepted fact that female's fertility is hidden in their hair. Therefore the longer hair they had, the more fertile they were supposed to be. It transformed into idea that hair are women's reproductive organ.
Therefore it was shameful for a man to have this women's reproductive organ (long hair).
Paul takes this obviously wrong idea and says "its what the nature teaches us".


If you have some kind of anxiety imagining that not everything in the Bible happened in the physical world exactly as written, then the natural sciences are not for you, at the moment.
Later in your life you can base your faith on something more robust than just the literal reading of the English Bible. For example on the spirit in you, your own walking with God etc.
It will still be Christianity, but not the fundamentalist American branch of it.

Summary: Christianity is compatible with evolution (and other natural sciences like astronomy, physics etc.), because the basics of Christianity are very simple and the spiritual realities are more important than the physical one or than the ancient cosmology.

But the literal reading of the Bible or taking every word in the Bible as dictated by God, probably not. Its as incompatible as the ancient cosmology is incompatible with the ISS circling around our heads right now.
The concept of original sin has slightly different variations but they all point to the same thing, which is that we inheret our sin nature from Adam. The only way someone would want to deny this is because they also want to deny creationism.

You don't have to teach children how to lie and be selfish, these things come as part of the human nature.

'For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.' 1 Cor 15:22

Actions have consequences. If a man has children but he does not work then those children will grow up in poverty. When you are in a ghetto it's hard to get out. His children's children will also grow up in poverty. Is it their fault? No but they inheret the condition they find themselves in due to their ancestor.

How do they get out of this mess? By help. The government may pay for them to have an education. This is where Christ comes in, through Christ we can have victory of our sin condition brought about by Adam.

The NT is full of references to Adam. Paul calls Jesus the second Adam. He was talking about someone he believed to have existed (Adam and Jesus).

You can't have evolution unless you are willing to ignore Paul's explanation about Jesus's purpose on the cross.
 
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Ayenew

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Hello!

I have a question and I would appreciate the input of the good people of this fine internet community!

My question is, is evolution compatible with a belief in Christianity?

So for some background to my research on this, I understand there is strict creationism (Genesis is literal), then there is the position that it is just a story, and that life evolved through theistic evolution. It's even said that Genesis creation was never to be taken at least fully literally.

So here is my thing, if evolution is true, why did Paul say,

'For Adam was first formed, then Eve.' 1 Tim 2:13.

It is clear that Paul believed in a literal creation of Adam, then Eve.

So if Paul is making it clear that it is not a story, but it's true, how can theistic evolution be reconciled as a genuine Christian belief?
My short opinion is, WE CAN NOT COMPROMISE THE BIBLICAL TRUTH FOR WHATEVER EVERY AGE BRINGS.

And here is my question, how much sure we are in evolution that we should worry to reconcile it with the Bible?
 
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Simon D

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My short opinion is, WE CAN NOT COMPROMISE THE BIBLICAL TRUTH FOR WHATEVER EVERY AGE BRINGS.

And here is my question, how much sure we are in evolution that we should worry to reconcile it with the Bible?
I think that one of the reasons why someone might want to reconcile evolution with the Bible is not because they are convinced by the arguments for it, but they possibly don't want their faith to seem radical to people who do believe in evolution.
 
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chad kincham

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What did the process of Adam's creation look like? When we bake a cake, we start with the ingredients. The ingredients go through several phases before the cake forms. God formed Adam from dust. What were the phases between dust and Adam?

Except when God makes a cake, He says, let there be cake, and it instantly exists.
 
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trophy33

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You don't have to teach children how to lie and be selfish, these things come as part of the human nature.
Not just of humans. Every physical creature has the similar traits of behavior, you can find the same things in the animal kingdom, too.
In humans its more evil, because humans can think of it more deeply and prepare it better. While animals do it more impulsively and naively.

The NT is full of references to Adam. Paul calls Jesus the second Adam. He was talking about someone he believed to have existed (Adam and Jesus).

You can't have evolution unless you are willing to ignore Paul's explanation about Jesus's purpose on the cross.

Evolution as such does not cancel the existence of Adam. Adam could very well be the first human as the Bible says (or only an archetype, a symbol, representing us all).
Only the technical process of his creation would not be so primitive (God taking dust, breathing into it...), but more complex.
So complex that it had no point to reveal it to ancient primitive people, so God was talking to them through symbolism as they were used to.
Ancient people were not interested in technical details, at all. Its a modern style of thinking. Its not wise to expect our style of thinking to be present in the 4,000 years old writings.
 
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Strong in Him

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Hello!

I have a question and I would appreciate the input of the good people of this fine internet community!

My question is, is evolution compatible with a belief in Christianity?

Yes.

So here is my thing, if evolution is true, why did Paul say,

'For Adam was first formed, then Eve.' 1 Tim 2:13.

It is clear that Paul believed in a literal creation of Adam, then Eve.

So if Paul is making it clear that it is not a story, but it's true, how can theistic evolution be reconciled as a genuine Christian belief?

Genesis says that God created the universe - that it was his doing, his intention and will.
It doesn't say HOW God created.
So God created trees - they could have all instantly materialised instantly, fully grown, or the saplings could have appeared when God spoke and the trees grew over time. The account reads as though it all happened instantly and within a short space of time, but it could all have taken thousands of years.

This has nothing to do with the fact that mankind disobeyed God, and have been doing so ever since, and that God himself, in Jesus, died as a perfect sacrifice for our sin.
Believing that animals - elephants, rhinos etc - just appeared, fully grown or that they evolved over time does not in any way change the fact that people are sinners and cannot come to the Father except through Jesus.
We are made new in Jesus, 2 Corinthians 5:17, given every spiritual blessing through Jesus, Ephesians 1:3, are born again through the Holy Spirit, John 3:3, who was sent by Jesus to his disciples and who draws us to Jesus.
Evolution cannot change, nor destroy, these facts.
 
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Simon D

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Not just of humans. Every physical creature has the similar traits of behavior, you can find the same things in the animal kingdom, too.
In humans it more evil, because humans can think of it more deeply and prepare it better. While animals do it more impulsively.



Evolution as such does not cancel the existence of Adam. Adam could very well be the first human as the Bible says (or only an archetype). Only the process of his creation would not be so primitive (God taking dust, breathing into it...), but more scientifically complex.
This conversation has already been had on this thread. Let's say Adam evolved then how did he know how to talk how did he learn a language and what relationship did he have with his mother who was an animal and where did Eve come from?

As to your first part,

'For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.' Romans 8:22-23

Paul tells us that the whole of creation changed when sin came into the world. This will change through Christ's sacrifice buying back the earth,' The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.' Isa 11:6

I'm really interested though if you could answer this part,

Let's say Adam evolved then how did he know how to talk how did he learn a language and what relationship did he have with his mother who was an animal and where did Eve come from?

Thanks! :)
 
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chad kincham

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Exactly it is quite disingenuous to take a book that is quite ancient and ascribe modern notions to said book plus acting like what the English translation is actually what the book really says in the original language

Evolution and the Bible are diametrically opposed.

Adams lineage is a pile of dirt, not a lineage of common descent that ended with Adam descending from simian ancestors that eventually became human.

And Eves lineage is being cloned from Adams rib.

Scripture makes it clear that death didn’t exist before the curse on creation the fall of Adam, which precludes millions of years of survival of the fittest, and all the lives and deaths needed to evolve into higher life forms and then mankind over millions of years.
 
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Strong in Him

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Except when God makes a cake, He says, let there be cake, and it instantly exists.

We are not told that it instantly existed. It reads that way, but it could all have taken many years.
 
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chad kincham

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Yes.



Genesis says that God created the universe - that it was his doing, his intention and will.
It doesn't say HOW God created.
So God created trees - they could have all instantly materialised instantly, fully grown, or the saplings could have appeared when God spoke and the trees grew over time. The account reads as though it all happened instantly and within a short space of time, but it could all have taken thousands of years.

This has nothing to do with the fact that mankind disobeyed God, and have been doing so ever since, and that God himself, in Jesus, died as a perfect sacrifice for our sin.
Believing that animals - elephants, rhinos etc - just appeared, fully grown or that they evolved over time does not in any way change the fact that people are sinners and cannot come to the Father except through Jesus.
We are made new in Jesus, 2 Corinthians 5:17, given every spiritual blessing through Jesus, Ephesians 1:3, are born again through the Holy Spirit, John 3:3, who was sent by Jesus to his disciples and who draws us to Jesus.
Evolution cannot change, nor destroy, these facts.

Except evolution exists for the sole purpose of negating any need for the existence of God, and replace Him with time and chance. Trying to make the Bible fit the metaphysical philosophy of naturalistic materialism called evolution, is a mistake.

The evolutionists don’t respect you for attempting to do so, either.
 
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Simon D

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Except evolution exists for the sole purpose of negating any need for the existence of God, and replace Him with time and chance. Trying to make the Bible fit the metaphysical philosophy of naturalistic materialism called evolution, is a mistake.

The evolutionists don’t respect you for attempting to do so, either.
You raise a good point.

A person can try to compromise to buy the respect of others, but what really happens is that they respect you more if you are willing to make a stand for what you claim to believe is right.
 
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chad kincham

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Evolution and the Bible are diametrically opposed.

Adams lineage is a pile of dirt, not a lineage of common descent that ended with Adam descending from simian ancestors that eventually became human.

And Eves lineage is being cloned from Adams rib.

Scripture makes it clear that death didn’t exist before the curse on creation the fall of Adam, which precludes millions of years of survival of the fittest, and all the lives and deaths needed to evolve into higher life forms and then mankind over millions of years.
 
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