Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

BobRyan

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It is a listing of the specific kings. But it also referenced a time before any king reigned in Israel--past tense.

Which is information for anyone who had Genesis but no other book of the Bible.
 
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BobRyan

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They had that list from Genesis by then.

By the time before Chronicles? Quite likely. In the time of Moses? Not sure why you would say that

The books of Moses - inside the ark for many centuries by the time you get to Ezra in the 5th century B.C. Deut 31:24-26 makes that clear.
 
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BobRyan

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It would certainly be odd news when it listed something that had not happened yet as a past event, rather than a future prediction.

But it makes great sense if it was recording something that happened in the past tense because it was written after kings reigned in Israel. .

It was not news to anyone at the time of Ezra that the kings of Canaan were in the land of Canaan before the kings of Israel. But it would be very interesting to a reader of Genesis (before any other book of the Bible had been written) when talking about kings of Canaan and Edom as compared to what would be there in the future for the kings of Israel. Very news worthy indeed to that set of readers.

When Moses introduces Abraham in Genesis he did not write "Abraham lived before the two tables of stone were given on Sinai" - even though in the logic you are using - that would make perfect sense to inform his readers about such a thing. The only reason Genesis points out kings in Israel vs those kings in Canaan is that they ruled the same piece of land but at different times and Moses is predicting a future nation/kingdom of Israel and they would rule in the same place. Very big news to the readers of his day.

Interesting that your objection to the Sabbath in Eden is tied in with your rejection of Moses as the author of Genesis and Genesis being the first book of the 5.
 
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BobRyan

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So any idea what percentage of the world that was?

In Genesis 2 that would be 100%
In Genesis 8 that would be 100%

It probably started to decrease from that point in terms of "percentage"
 
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tall73

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Along with Christ.

you need to start a "Moses did not write Genesis" thread if you really think this is the issue we are having.

Please post the statement by Christ that Moses wrote Genesis, and that will suffice.
 
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tall73

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It was not news to anyone at the time of Ezra that the kings of Canaan were in the land of Canaan before the kings of Israel. But it would be very interesting to a reader of Genesis (before any other book of the Bible had been written) when talking about kings of Canaan and Edom as compared to what would be there in the future for the kings of Israel. Very news worthy indeed to that set of readers.

It didn't say in the future. Why change it?

The only reason Genesis points out kings in Israel vs those kings in Canaan is that they ruled the same piece of land but at different times and Moses is predicting a future nation/kingdom of Israel and they would rule in the same place. Very big news to the readers of his day.

Except it is stated in the past. And while Saul, David, etc. did rule over Edom for some time they did not technically rule the same piece of land. They ruled Israel, the kings of Edom ruled Edom, and for a time the kings of Israel conquered Edom.

Interesting that your objection to the Sabbath in Eden is tied in with your rejection of Moses as the author of Genesis and Genesis being the first book of the 5.

Show me the Scripture that Moses wrote Genesis.
 
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tall73

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The books of Moses - inside the ark for many centuries by the time you get to Ezra in the 5th century B.C. Deut 31:24-26 makes that clear.


Deu 31:24 When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end,
Deu 31:25 Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD,
Deu 31:26 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.
Deu 31:27 For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD. How much more after my death!
Deu 31:28 Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears and call heaven and earth to witness against them.
Deu 31:29 For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside from the way that I have commanded you. And in the days to come evil will befall you, because you will do what is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger through the work of your hands.”


The book of the law is stated. It does not state anything about Genesis. And when Jesus or other passages quote Moses they reference Exodus, Deuteronomy, etc. And in those books Moses is seen as writing things down.


But you have provided no text that indicates Genesis was written by Moses.

 
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tall73

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So then an insert by a copyist at a later time for the sake of the reader.

Interesting that your objection to the Sabbath in Eden is tied in with your rejection of Moses as the author of Genesis and Genesis being the first book of the 5.

I think it is pretty likely that Moses was the source for most of Genesis, and the other four as well. The continuation of the narrative from Genesis to Exodus seems the strongest argument for that.

There is no direct reference to Moses writing Genesis. And references to the law of Moses and book of Moses when they specify usually relate to Exodus or Deuteronomy.

Your comment indicates you see a later copyist adding material. That is likely, but we don't know for sure which parts were added. And I am assuming you see all of it as inspired, which I would as well.

So why make such a point of the additions?

a. You indicate you are sola-Scriptura. But you yet insist Moses wrote Genesis in the desert of Midian without a text. I think Moses wrote the vast majority of the first five books as well. But to use your term we have to infer that from the continuation of the narrative. And Moses is seen as writing down things in Exodus, etc. It is also significant that the Samaritans retain a version of the Pentateuch.

b. It highlights a characteristic of Genesis which you earlier pointed out, that it will refer to some things from a later time frame.

c. It is still unclear when Genesis was written even if Moses was the main contributor. And it is unclear that Exodus quotes Genesis, rather than Genesis quoting the statement of God on the mountain.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord wrote:So to claim we are following God according to the scriptures while breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken is not saving faith but the faith of devils who believe but do not follow *James 2:17-20; 26.
Your response here...
That is the issue under consideration, whether the Sabbath is required. And the problem you state cuts both ways, as I well know, having been on both sides of the question. If it is required then to refuse it is to refuse God's command. But if it is not required then asking people to do so is also against God's will.
Responded to with...
LoveGodsWord wrote: I believe it is very clear from the scriptures provided already that God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments and that everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are a requirement and standard for Christian living which according to the scriptures give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral wrong doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and if we knowingly break anyone of them according to James we stand guilty before God of sin according to *James 2:10-11.

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest, just the same as there is no scripture that calls this so called Sunday rest "the Lords day" which is taken from Revelation 1:10. This of course we know however is a man-made tradition and teaching according to Jesus that has led many either knowingly or unknowingly to break Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments. Yet according to the scriptures and very Words of Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9 we are warned that if we follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God.

So who should we believe and follow God or man? According to the scriptures God holds us accountable for what we know not what we do not know in James 4:17 and Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31. Gods people I have stated many times here and elsewhere are in every Church *John 10:16. The hour is coming and now is says Jesus that Gods' true worshipers wherever they may be will hear His voice (the Word) and follow him (John 4:23; John 10:26-27).

God is a Spirit and those who worship Him according to the scriptures must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:24. All this of course is the first angels message and is in regards to worship which is the issue we are discussing here. "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. All these scriptures are linked together pointing back to what we have forgotten, God is calling us back to REMEMBER the Sabbath day and the God of creation and to worship Him that made the heavens and the earth and the sea and the fountains.

Gods 4th commandment is the only one of Gods' 10 commandments that acknowledges God as the God of creation and God as our creator and only one entitled to our worship. BABYLON has fallen God is calling His people where ever they may be our from following man-made teachings and traditions back to the pure Word of God *Revelation 14:9-12; Revelation 18:1-5; John 10:26-27.
Your response...
I have not argued this. Your posts tend to respond to points I am not making. And a number depend on presuppositions we don't share. I read the rest of your statements. But see nothing to respond to for the above reason.
The conversation is provided above. Perhaps you got distracted trying to have two conversations at the same time. Your trying to argue now that my post does not respond to the points you were making is not true. Your post above my last one that I was responding to states that ...
That is the issue under consideration, whether the Sabbath is required. And the problem you state cuts both ways, as I well know, having been on both sides of the question. If it is required then to refuse it is to refuse God's command. But if it is not required then asking people to do so is also against God's will.
My post responded to these claims of yours in your quoted post above showing that Gods' 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed and showing from the scriptures that the issue we are discussing is over what it means to worship God. Do we follow man-made teachings and traditions or do we follow the Word of God. Very much on point I would think. Your response to this post to me is simply a hand waive. It is ok you do not need to respond if you do not wish to.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Indeed, and the unclean animals distinction existed before animals were yet food. There were already animals for sacrifice. Since folks keep wanting to discuss Genesis 2 we can now turn to that, and a couple other related texts. We see this often with Genesis, addressing things not yet happened in the narrative of the book, or even things beyond the narrative of the book. So Eve is mentioned as the mother of the living before having children. Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” Gen 3:20 The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. Gen 3:21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.
Do you think Genesis was written after the events in Genesis happened or before? I am not understanding your argument here. So Eve was named Eve because she was going to be the mother of mankind before she had children. Do you think that Adam and Eve did not know that they were the first of their kind and God wanted them to multiply in the world? (see Genesis 1:26-31)
And the kings of Israel, not covered in Genesis or Exodus, are referred to in Genesis. Gen 36:31 These are the kings who reigned in the land of Edom, before any king reigned over the Israelites. Now that last one does need to be addressed. If there were kings (plural) in Israel at the time of the writing of Genesis, then it was not written by Moses. And this is the difficulty with Genesis 2. You noted that Exodus quoted Genesis 2.But if Genesis was not written until there were kings of Israel then it was not quoting Genesis 2. Rather Genesis 2 was quoting the words of God from the mountain. Exodus' statement is cemented at the specific time that God Himself spoke the ten commandments at Sinai. Genesis, written after kings were in Israel then came after this statement.

I am also not sure why you are discussing kings of Israel in Genesis 36:31 or if you have made a mistake here. Genesis 36:31 is talking about the Kings of Edom not Israel that inhabited the land from Esau’s lineage not Jacobs before there was any kings in Israel. There is no mention of kings of Israel in Genesis. The scripture simply says; Genesis 36:31, And these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel. Genesis 35 and Genesis 36 are talking about the kings of the land from Esau’s lineage. In fact the name Israel was not even given by God to His people until Genesis 35:10 and of course his children making up the twelve tribes of Israel.
And the blessing and making holy then was is also in question.
Why would that be? I assume your talking about Genesis 2:1-3. You really have not made any argument I can see at all so far. There was no Israel when God made the Sabbath for all mankind as shown in Mark 2:27 and Genesis 2:1-3; no Moses, no sin and no implementation of Gods plan of salvation because it was not needed because man was in perfect harmony with God and was sinless. Nothing to question here if we believe the scriptures that I can see.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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God gave Israel the sign: Exo 31:12 And the LORD said to Moses, Exo 31:13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you. Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.
You’re moving the discussion now to Exodus. So the Sabbath is made a sign to the children of Israel who as we have discussed earlier in the new testament are all those who believe and follow Gods Word (here and here linked). I am not sure why you even brought up Genesis to be honest as it does not support anything you are claiming here.
That is why many note it does not make any reference to people keeping the Sabbath, or any details. Because what is shown in Genesis 2 is God resting from His work of creation. Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. And then the next statement relates hallowing of the day with an explanatory statement: Gen 2:3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
Perhaps the point your missing here is that in Genesis 2:1-3 there would not have been a name for the Sabbath as it was the making of the Sabbath which according to the scriptures was on the “seventh day” of the creation week where God blessed the “seventh day” and made the “seventh day” a holy day of rest. Resting of course being the verb form of how the Sabbath is kept (שָׁבַת H7673 shâbath keeping Sabbath which is the root word for Sabbath) and the Sabbath being a descriptive noun (Sabbath שַׁבָּת ; shabbâth H7676) to what is being kept on a continuous weekly cycle. So of course it makes sense that the Sabbath needs to be made first before it was given a name. I do not think you are realising that perhaps everyone is in agreement that the name “Sabbath” was not used until Exodus 16. What we are arguing is that just because the name is not used until Exodus 16 it does not mean that Gods’ people did not know about all of the 10 commandments before Exodus 16 which has already been demonstrated that they did know about all of Gods’ commandments. I think posts # 1078 and post # 1079 linked, and the follow up posts # 1091 linked debunks the myth of the "argument of silence" that Gods' law was not known by God's people (see Genesis 26:5) prior to Exodus 16 to Exodus 20. Scripture was also provided showing Jesus who is the creator of the Sabbath saying that the Sabbath was made for all mankind in Mark 2:27. The Sabbath was made on the seventh day of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3 and Adam and Eve were made on the sixth day of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31. So Adam and Eve were the first to keep the Sabbath that God (Jesus as the creator) says he made for all mankind.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It is one of the ten commandments, and part of the words of the covenant, and on the tablets of the covenant. But it is is an appointed time. It is a time...that is appointed. It is something you "remember" because in the Hebrew mind "remember" is to act. It is something they are to observe, as it is an appointment.
If it was just saying remember because it was commanded earlier then by your logic all of them would say remember.

It is indeed an appointed time within the 10 commandments to Remember the God of creation. It is an appointed time according to the scriptures that is every "seventh day" of the week that God blessed and made a Holy day of rest and commands His people everywhere to keep Holy and do no work. The point I was trying to make earlier that you left out of the quote you posted was that just as God said we should not lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, honor our parents, covet, have no other Gods, do not make idol or use the Lords name in vain; God also says in the same 10 commandments to "Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy". James says if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11; Paul says that if we break God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in Romans 7:7 and John also agrees as shown in 1 John 3:4.

Also God saying....

EXODUS 20:8-11
[8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
[9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
[10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY>
[11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT

"REMEMBER" is pointing to something already known something in the past that according to Jesus was given to all mankind (Mark 2:27). REMEMBER points back to creation *Genesis 2:1-3 when God made the Sabbath on the "seventh day" of the creation week for all mankind and blessed the "seventh day" and set it apart as a Holy day of rest and remembrance of creation and God as our creator of heaven and earth. Gods' 4th commandment is one of the 10 commandments according to Paul and James that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11 and righteousness when obeyed according to the scriptures (Psalms 119:172).

I think you may have missed the point of my earlier post.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The book of the law is stated. It does not state anything about Genesis. And when Jesus or other passages quote Moses they reference Exodus, Deuteronomy, etc. And in those books Moses is seen as writing things down. But you have provided no text that indicates Genesis was written by Moses.

The book of the law (Deuteronomy 28:58; Deuteronomy 30:10; Deuteronomy 31:24-26 Joshua 23:6; 2 Chronicles 34:14-15 etc etc) is the same one written by Moses also called the book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 that was placed in the side of the Ark (Deuteronomy 31:26). I believe you are quite wrong to claim that the Pentateuch was not written by Moses. It was called the Mosaic book of the law or the law of Moses because Moses wrote it under God's direction (Deuteronomy 31:24-26). The Pentateuch states that Moses wrote these books (see Exodus 17:14; 24:4; 34:27; Numbers 33:1–2; Deuteronomy 31:9–11). We also have the witness of the rest of the Old Testament: Joshua 1:8; 8:31–32; 1 Kings 2:3; 2 Kings 14:6; 21:8; Ezra 6:18; Nehemiah 13:1; Daniel 9:11–13; Malachi 4:4. The New Testament is also clear in its testimony: Matthew 19:8; John 5:45-47; 7:19; Acts of the Apostles 3:22; Romans 10:5; Mark 12:26. The divisions of the Old Testament were clearly in place in the Jewish mind long before the time of Christ, namely, the Law of Moses (first 5 books of the OT), the Prophets (the historical and prophetic books) and the Writings (the poetic books of Job, Psalms, Proverbs, etc.). So when Jesus referred to the Law of Moses, His Jewish listeners knew exactly to what He was referring. Scripture provided! The book of the law does not state that it is any of the individual books of the Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers) because the book of the law is referred to as all these books collectively as they were one book.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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BobRyan

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a. You indicate you are sola-Scriptura. But you yet insist Moses wrote Genesis in the desert of Midian without a text.

Sola Scriptura is funny that way. It does not say that "nothing happened unless it is recorded in the Bible" rather it says that doctrine has to be tested by the Bible. I think you are conflating the two just then.

My argument about the Genesis 36 chapter is
1. Genesis came before Exodus
2. Moses is the author of the first 5 books of the Bible
3. The list of Chiefs given in that chapter and then kings in that chapter are historic fact at the time Moses was in Midian..but they would also be historic fact while Moses was at Sinai... either way it is historic fact.
4. I have given several options for why Moses' text points to Israel having no king at all while these Edomite kings were reigning -- I will give another one.
I think it strikes the reader that Jacob and Esau are twins and yet Esau has a long line of kings whereas Israel had none to that point in time. His contemporary readers would have known and agreed to that argument. And they may have been supposing that just as Esau's descendants eventually organized to the point of having Kings - so also would Isaac's descendants - and possibly wonder why it is taking Israel so long as compared to Esau.

In other words the one that was "blessed" had no kings and was in slavery in Egypt. And the one that was not blessed had a long line of them and was in Canaan the entire time. That is a striking contrast for the reader.

In fact Moses told Israel that they should not have kings - just have God as King. Still Moses was shown the future of Israel - their apostasy during the time of the Kings and then God gathering them back to the land of Israel after being taken captive by Babylon.

What Moses did not do - is tell them their first king would be Saul and the second would be David or any such thing. Or that they would have kings in response to Samuel's sons. Details that would be known to a writer who is writing at the time of the Kings of Israel.

c. It is still unclear when Genesis was written even if Moses was the main contributor.

Clarity can be added by a direct message from God when it comes to a detail God has not given in scripture. That is not a violation of the "sola scriptura" method of testing doctrine. However it is generally accepted among classic Christian scholarship until the age of criticism that Moses wrote the 5 books.

And it is unclear that Exodus quotes Genesis, rather than Genesis quoting the statement of God on the mountain.

It is very clear that Exodus is about events after Genesis and is very logical to point out that Exodus is quoting Genesis. This is particularly true given the fact that all 5 books are given to Israel -- so all contemporary readers of Exodus also had Genesis. It is logical that the Author would have written Genesis first.

Knowing that does not violate the "sola scriptura" principle for testing all doctrine.

Finding out that God confirms that detail in a direct message is also not a violation of the "sola scriptura" principle for testing all doctrine.

We don't find out that God showed Abraham the days of Christ until we read about it in John 8:56 - but that is also not a denial of "sola scriptura" testing that had been going on for centuries before that John 8 statement was made.
 
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BobRyan

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Deu 31:24 When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end,
Deu 31:25 Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD,
Deu 31:26 “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.
Deu 31:27 For I know how rebellious and stubborn you are. Behold, even today while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the LORD. How much more after my death!
Deu 31:28 Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears and call heaven and earth to witness against them.
Deu 31:29 For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside from the way that I have commanded you. And in the days to come evil will befall you, because you will do what is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger through the work of your hands.”


The book of the law is stated. It does not state anything about Genesis. And when Jesus or other passages quote Moses they reference Exodus, Deuteronomy, etc. And in those books Moses is seen as writing things down.


But you have provided no text that indicates Genesis was written by Moses.

The claim that Genesis was added to the Pentateuch in the 5th century B.C. goes against all Bible scholarship leading into the 1900's. I don't see any need for that sort of thing.

you say --
But you have provided no text that indicates Genesis was written by Moses.

You also say that even you think Moses wrote Genesis.

I think it is pretty likely that Moses was the source for most of Genesis, and the other four as well. The continuation of the narrative from Genesis to Exodus seems the strongest argument for that.
 
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tall73

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The conversation is provided above. Perhaps you got distracted trying to have two conversations at the same time. Your trying to argue now that my post does not respond to the points you were making is not true. Your post above my last one that I was responding to states that ...

It is true. Here is a screenshot of the part I quoted from you, and how I responded:

upload_2021-4-11_16-16-54.png

---------------------

I have not argued for Sunday rest. You were addressing something I was not arguing.
 
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Do you think Genesis was written after the events in Genesis happened or before? I am not understanding your argument here. So Eve was named Eve because she was going to be the mother of mankind before she had children. Do you think that Adam and Eve did not know that they were the first of their kind and God wanted them to multiply in the world? (see Genesis 1:26-31)

The point is that items are mentioned in the narrative that will happen but have not yet in the point of the narrative.

Bob also noted an example of unclean animals being noted in Genesis but the details of what those unclean animals were was indicated in Leviticus.

Yes, the events were certainly written after they occurred.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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It is true. Here is a screenshot of the part I quoted from you, and how I responded:

View attachment 297604
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I have not argued for Sunday rest. You were addressing something I was not arguing.
No one said you did please read my whole post to you and what I replied to.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The point is that items are mentioned in the narrative that will happen but have not yet in the point of the narrative.

Bob also noted an example of unclean animals being noted in Genesis but the details of what those unclean animals were was indicated in Leviticus.

Yes, the events were certainly written after they occurred.

I am sorry I still do not see the relevancy of your point or argument to the Sabbath commandment, Genesis and Moses and to our discussion.
 
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