God Is a Physical Being

JAL said:

We have human minds and, as such, can only think in human terms. If you're saying that God transcends human terms and, as such, is humanly incomprehensible, that spells the end of theology. In that case, you can't justifiably insist on one particular doctrine or another, the right thing to do would be to shut up.

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Of course we cannot comprehend God. It is insanely arrogant for a person to believe he or she can. We can, however, comprehend the revelation that He as given us, and part of that revelation is that we cannot comprehend Him. There is so much to which we have never been exposed. We cannot even fathom the extent of our ignorance.

JAL said:

And since this spells the end of theology, you backpedal, of course:

So we can't be sure of anything because, ultimately, we do not and cannot have a full revelation?

I certainly agree we cannot comrpehend God quantitatively (e.g. the full magnitude of His love). But certainly we can comprehend Him qualitatively, for example I know what love is - it is kindess. Otherwise we have no hope.

Again, if you cannot comprehend God, you cannot tell me that my doctrines are wrong.

Your assumption that God is incomprehensible is both self-defeating and false.

As exegetes, we have to go with where the evidence points, keeping in mind that extraordinary claims require extraordinary amounts of supportive evidence. Matter is all we know for sure on a daily basis, and the biblical evidence is consistent with that materialism. Hence this thread.

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No, we can't be sure of anything. Thanks for pointing that out. That's why we have faith. It bridges the gap.

Matter is constant. It can neither be created nor destroyed... by what we have seen. God is the element that defies that. He does not fit the laws we use to define the natural world. We cannot comprehend that. Qualitative data shows how individuals experience God, but it will not show the entirety of God. It only shows what He has revealed.

So if He cannot be understood fully through quantitative or qualitative measures, that leaves only one option. He is incomprehensible.

JAL said:

Occam's Razor. As I discussed on a recent thread, a material God provides for a simple cosmogony that easily resolves a number of historically insoluble problems such as the Incarnation, the Problem of Evil, and divine merit. I am not aware of any major metaphysical problem unsolved in my simple system, other than the question of what lies outside the boundaries of physical realities, but that question is a challenge to all sides.

You've bought into a false assumption that God MUST transcend human understanding, the assumption that "Theology is not real theology if I can fully comprehend it, ultimately it must be gibberish to the human mind." But such undermines theology itself, jeopardizes hope, simply isn't necessary and, worse yet, results in hollow and deceptive philosophy because it leads to the attitude, "I won't accept anything clear, simple, and rock-solid - I'll only accept gibberish!" Why?

As discussed on the current thread, I couldn't even produce a fully satisfactory, fully seamless comprehension of John 3:5 until I eschewed traditional Platonic metaphysics in favor of my simple one held today. I believe I've now proposed the only fully seamless of reading of John 3:5 found in church history. Simplicity rocks!

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Forgive me for seeking clarification, but where did I claim "Theology is not real theology if I can fully comprehend it, ultimately it must be gibberish to the human mind?" Theology is inherently something we can comprehend because we create it.

JAL said:

I believe in a God whom I do fully comprehend.

No, obviously you didn't use those exact words verbatim but your gratuitous, dogmatic insistence on a somewhat incomprehensible God boils down to that statement. Anything which I don't comprehend is gibberish to me.

The main point of this thread is that immaterialism is a magical fantasy devoid of evidence. If you want to fill up the content of theology with a bunch of unwarranted fantasies, you are free to do so. But don't claim they are rooted in Scripture unless you can produce hard exegetical evidence. That burden of proof hasn't been met.

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The Universe is vast. Do you fully comprehend it? If your answer is "no," then you cannot fully comprehend God. He is the Creator and Master of it. That's the simplest explanation. No gibberish involved.

Since you mentioned Occam's razor, which argument requires fewer assumptions? Yours or mine?

JAL said:

As noted a few posts back, mainstream immaterialism faces about 13 points of incoherence. It's pure gibberish.

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Unfortunately, Scripture disagrees with you.

JAL said:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

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This is just a fancy sounding way to rationalize special pleading. It's a pernicious bit of self-serving irrationality that fits in well with much of what you say in support of your position.

As for Tertullian, I see little reason to put any credence in the things he said as he was headed into his theological ditch. And I care even less for this no-name (and decidedly unorthodox) Phillip Schaff.

JAL said:

Scripture resolves the 13 points of gibberish, rendering those issues clear and fully intelligible? Show me where.

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1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

Romans 11:33-34
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?

Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard?
The Everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth
Does not become weary or tired.
His understanding is inscrutable.

Job 36:26
Behold, God is exalted, and we do not know Him;
The number of His years is unsearchable.

Isaiah 55:8-9
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts."

Ecclesiastes 8:16-17
When I applied my mind to know wisdom and to observe the labor that is done on earth—people getting no sleep day or night— then I saw all that God has done. No one can comprehend what goes on under the sun. Despite all their efforts to search it out, no one can discover its meaning. Even if the wise claim they know, they cannot really comprehend it.

-As I have said, we cannot possibly fully comprehend God. Therefore, trying to assign to Him a state of matter is foolish. He simply is. He can be whatever He wishes because He defines existence.

JAL said:

I have described God as an entity who, like us, is a tangible being self-propelled by free will. Such is sufficient for cosmogony, theodicy, theology, christology. Nothing in those verses contradicts that.

The verses you cited reaffirm what I've told you several times now - we don't fully comprehend Him quantitatively. For example suppose I have a vial of poisonous fluid and He commands me to inject it into my boss. Turns out that, for him, in his special scenario, it will save his life, but I had no way of knowing that. But I do know that Yahweh acts with kindness and righteousness. I do fully comprehend Him - qualitatively.

Occam's Razor. Matter is all we know for sure. The burden of proof falls on those who seemingly concoct fairytales.

No. God cannot change his own essential definition. Again, if theology has no stability, we have no hope.

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The mental gymnastics you're going through to get your point to fit with Scripture would suggest that you do not understand Occam's razor.

Thomas White said:

The mental gymnastics you're going through to get your point to fit with Scripture would suggest that you do not understand Occam's razor.

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This is his MO. It's a doctrine of one and engaging is an utter waste of time.