Christ gave his life as a ransom
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Very good and it goes along with What Jesus was teaching in Matt. 18, but your analogy is not the same as my question, so there is a huge difference.
I was very intentional in adding the phrase: “and that person humbly accepts that forgiveness as pure undeserved charity”, now this is something we cannot be assured happened, because it has to do with motive. If you neighbor after you forgave him, said something like: “when I get back on my feet, I will pay for wrecking your car”, you can then know he did not accept your forgiveness as pure undeserving charity. Another way we can tell is the neighbor does not Love you in proportion to the value of the wreck at least, because Jesus teaches us this truism “He that is forgiven much Loves much.” If your neighbor after being forgiven is not respecting you and wanting to please you he has not accepted your forgiveness as pure undeserved charity.
I use the parable in Matt. 18 extensively as a proof text to show how forgiveness, Love, atonement, grace, and mercy are not one-sided actions but require action on both the giver and receiver to complete the transaction.
This parable is not explained well by many commentaries.
Before going into this parable you need to get the context which may not be obvious;
Matt. 18: 21-35
Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).
I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly, so there is no need for a strait forward answer but Jesus’ answer would produce follow-up questions immediately, but the apostles are slow to ask Jesus what is on their hearts which we find throughout scripture. The parable is the follow-up answer to this question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s). (which I also being see on your heart from your response.)
I would suggest: when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77 they are thinking: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?” (People always think about how it will impact themselves.)
Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.
Here are some questions I have asked in the past:
The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.
The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, is it referring to all other humans or just other Christian brothers?)
The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept the forgiveness as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?
The servant is ask: “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back, the servant would know that, so is the servant lying with: “I’ll pay everything back”?
If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love), (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love be seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?
If a “unconditional forgiveness transaction” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?
Is there any other debt the servant owes, since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?
Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?
In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?
Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?
Christ’s parables address one area of how things work in the Kingdom, but may leave other areas unaddressed (it is only a short story), so we need to be cautious.
Lots of times you need to put yourself into the audience Jesus is addressing and try to be thinking: what they would be thinking about at the time, because Jesus addresses what is on the heart of the individual person(s) and not what has been verbalized (there are a dozen examples of this).
Jesus gives us one requirement, we often leave out, and that is going to the person we tried to forgive when he did not accept the forgiveness as charity, and explain what he did wrong and why he still owes us. We may stop with just not loaning them our car again.
These moments are teaching moments.
God turning something over to you to become your possession saying “here it is it is yours now” that is a promise He is making. You can do with it as you please (sell it, give it away) but since God made the commitment (promise) He cannot just take it back.
God forgives unconditionally, but we do have to accept it as unconditional, undeserved, unselfish pure charity to complete the transaction.
I did not really look at the details of the servant throwing the other servant in prison. There are always limits to parables, but look at the subtle differences between what the servants did and what the master did. The wicked servant only put the fellow servant in prison (no mention of torture this could be like Paul’s imprisonment) while the master had the wicked servant turned over to a person (being) for continuous torture?
Can we start with what we do agree with in this parable, just let me know yes or no:
1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?
2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?
3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?
4. The wicked servant is a sinner?
5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?
6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?
7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?
8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?
If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?
A tree brings glory to God by being a tree?
Can a person not bring glory to God no matter what he does by your believe?
A birth right cannot be taken away and God will not take it away, but like Esau you can sell it or give it away.
If you do not think Deity is the most likely spiritually speaking alternative for the King or Master, who could it be referring to (the only other poorly supported thought was the “Church”)?
If you do not think the servant is most likely in the spiritual meaning an example of a sinner and/or Christian who could he be?
Peter came to Jesus. He asked, “Lord, how many times should I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times.
23 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to collect all the money his servants owed him. 24 As the king began to do it, a man who owed him millions of dollars was brought to him. 25 The man was not able to pay. So his master gave an order. The man, his wife, his children, and all he owned had to be sold to pay back what he owed. 26 “The servant fell on his knees in front of him. ‘Give me time,’ he begged. ‘I’ll pay everything back.’ 27 “His master felt sorry for him. He forgave him what he owed and let him go. 28 “But then that servant went out and found one of the other servants who owed him a few dollars. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he said. 29 “The other servant fell on his knees. ‘Give me time,’ he begged him. ‘I’ll pay you back.’ 30 “But the first servant refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison. The man would be held there until he could pay back what he owed. 31 The other servants saw what had happened. It troubled them greatly. They went and told their master everything that had happened. 32 “Then the master called the first servant in. ‘You evil servant,’ he said. ‘I forgave all that you owed me because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed. 35 “This is how my Father in heaven will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
That completes the answer to that question perfectly, so what is the parable about?
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Clare73
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Read it again . .what they were responsible for had been given to them. That will be taken away, as well as what they had before they were even assigned the responsibility. They will end up in a negative, rather than neutral, position.
See Jeremiah 18:7-10.
It would profit you to sit under an authorized teacher of Scripture.[/QUOTE]
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Was it a gift given to them or responsibility given to them? A gift is totally theirs to do with as they please, responsibility it not a gift.
How are you using Jer. 18: 7-10?
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Not at all!
In Jer. 18 God is talking about not doing something He said He would do in the future because man changed (Jer. 18) while in Matt 18 it apears to be something God did do for man and now wants to take it back. God even cannot change history, if He did it He did it, but a study of Matt. will show God did His part in the forgiveness process, but man did not complete the process (recieving the forgiveness as pure undeserved forgiveness (charity) so the forgiveness did not happen.
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The first five I basically agree on.
It literally says it was forgiven.
And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
— Matthew 18:27
Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
— Matthew 18:32
The story is not about whether he could repay it or not. He fell down on his knees, pleading. He had an honest will to pay it back.
Part of repentance is "paying back" what you have done wrong. If you have no will to change your life, how can you expect to be forgiven.
I think you read in things to this text that is much more complicated, than it really is. Often the simplest reading is the correct one.
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After Jesus says 77 times they apostles really need to understand what all is involved in forgiveness, which the parable does.
This gets into whither forgiveness is a transaction or just one sided;
When Jesus says: God “forgave” and you are to “forgive”, that is what God does and you should do, which is your part.
When does Loving parent forgive their rebellious disobedient children? Do they wait until the child asks to be forgiven, do they wait until after the child lovingly accepts loving discipline, or do they wait until they twist the arm of the child and he says “OK I ‘m sorry” or is the child forgiven immediately?
God is Love and forgiving is part of Love, so God is a forgiver and just as God is a 24/7 Lover, God is a 24/7 forgiver. When Jesus verbalized for us and asks God to “forgive those who crucified Him”, Jesus being one with God means God did forgive them all, but where they all forgiven of crucifying Christ since Peter says in Acts 2, they are all still guilty of crucifying Christ?
Does God forgiving people automatically force those people to humbly accept that forgiveness as pure undeserving charitable Love? If they do not humbly accept that Love (forgiveness), was the transaction of forgiveness completed?
God is a huge giver of unbelievable wonderful gifts which includes forgiveness, but we know not everyone is forgiven, so can we blame God for not doing His part (forgiving)?
If God gives us something that He will take back if we do not do something in the future, that would be a “conditional” gift. If God’s Love is unconditional (as we are to Love others) and forgiveness is part of Love, then forgiveness cannot be taken back by any condition.
The question is often asked: “How can God Love people, yet allow them to go to hell?” Those that go to hell are not Loved, but God does Love them. The transaction of Love between God and people going to hell was not completed. God Loved them and did all He could to help them, but they never accept God’s Love as pure undeserved charity, so they are not being Loved, which is only their fault.
Jesus talks other places about smart dishonest servants called to give an account and the smart (dishonest) moves they made.
This servant has to be really smart with money, since the very wise master entrusted him with billions of dollars, so he would know he could never pay this huge sum back. We have been entrusted with the power (Love and the indwelling holy Spirit) to turn the world upside down again, without the Spirit and the Love we can do nothing, so how much do we need to be forgiven of or can we do it on our own?
What I am trying to get across is the actions and words of the servant, show to me, he was not humbly accepting the an undeserved, unconditional, selfless forgiveness of his master, even though that is what the Master offered him.
I have explained to people needing money that: this is not a company loan, this is not a loan I am making to them, this is to be between just him and I, and I am taking money from other charities I give to so I can gift this charitable gift to them. Yet after much explaining they go to the door and say: “when I get back on my feet, I will pay you back.” (did they understand what I just said?)
One said after I explained it “OK, so you’re just paying forward”, NO!
Some refused to take it, but needed it.
I see most people in the shoes of this unfaithful servant, willing to do and think almost anything to avoid humbling themselves to the point of accepting pure charity.
People will think they are helping you out of you’re feeling bad about being greedy, by giving money to them.
Some are good con people earning (stealing) money from you.
No part of repentance is not paying back what you did wrong. Repenting is mentally changing of the direction you are headed in. Most of the time we cannot “payback”.
Ephesians 4:28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
There is nothing said about paying back what you have stolen, but you certainly can try to do that.
There is good reason why many (especially Calvinistic) commentaries do not give an explanation for how God forgives and the person in the end is not forgiven. They will tell you what it cannot be teaching, but leave out what it does teach.
They cannot say (like you seem to be suggesting) God takes back His forgiveness (this goes against OSAS) and makes promises conditional.
Most Bible Scholars know a forgiveness/ love is unconditional, yet you are suggesting it is conditional.
I am saying Love and Forgiveness are both unconditional gifts. I go on to explain man’s part in salvation/forgiveness (accepting), which is not conditional with God’s part, but is conditional for completing the transaction.
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I don't mean we always have to pay back what we have done wrong, but be willing to pay back/make right what we have done wrong. Sometimes it might just be stop cheating with taxes or something. It doesn't have to be about money. You might have been lying to someone, then you need to come clean to that person. In that case that is the "payment" you need to do. Just asking God for forgiveness it not enough. We must be willing to set things straight.
Before I was a Christian I was at church wanting to light a candle. There was a man in there on his knees praying. I had no money on me so I asked the man for a few coins to a candle. The man refused. As I got saved I think back to that man. He was praying to God for help, yet couldn't spare just a little for his neighbour. I was at that time hosptalized but got permission to go to church. Lighting a candle that day would mean so much for me, yet I had to leave without. I never got to know what this man was praying about, but maybe God wanted to show him what His Kingdom is about, giving him an opportunity to help another. We can't buy mercy, but I think we can withhold mercy by our own lack thereof.
We like to say: "It's a gift, it's free, just believe it". It's true it doesn't cost money to be forgiven, but we have to repent to receive forgiveness. Of course the root sin is that we have not been living for God if we are unbelievers. So in that case we need to confess that and ask for forgiveness.
Then it's the atonement. I like to think of it like this: God has given the payment (Christ crucified) for all our wrongdoings, all our sins. But we are not forgiven until we receive the payment, Christ sacrifice. What we receive (forgiveness) can be lost by dishonest life etc. The payment of Christ for our sins on the other hand, can't be unpaid, that's a done deal.
Christ death and resurrection is an atoning sacrifice, atoning us when we receive him. It was an act of forgiveness towards man, but man is not forgiven until Christ is received. At least that's my view.
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We are to do the best and be as great of an example as we can. We have to watch putting a great obligation on a thief, then the Bible does, some wrongs cannot be righted. Paul might not have gone back to Jerusalem to help the families of Steven, since God sent Him away.
Repenting seems to just be going from self-reliance to the wiliness to humbly accept God’s forgiveness as pure charity. Confessing is good and adds to the commitment.
The resurrection is extremely important, but it is not part of the atonement process. The joyous resurrection helps us know we are forgiven and a heavenly Home awaits us, but we need to go through the being sacrificed with Christ (the atonement process).
Yes, we are the ones who must accept this huge ransom payment, since we are the kidnapper holding a child of God back from the Kingdom.
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