When does the rapture happen? Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib?

When does the rapture happen? Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib?

  • Pre-trib

  • Mid-trib

  • Post-trib


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Timtofly

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You appear to be ignoring the scripture which reveals the identity of the witnesses.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Your point being these are not ordinary humans.

Still does not refute their soul does not remain in this dead body for those 3.5 days.

They are not an example of ordinary people period.

I am trying to point out They are not ordinary people because of those verses.

You are trying to turn these into sinful carnal corruptible bodies, where the soul has to leave the body.
 
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Timtofly

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This is why you have so many false beliefs that only you believe (or that very few believe besides you). You make everything way more complicated than it actually is.

Do you understand that the sheep receive "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared" for them "from the foundation of the world"? Are you suggesting that believers in the house of Jacob will receive eternal life because of their works rather than Christ's atonement? If so, show me where that is taught in scripture.

This is something that I think many people don't understand about Matthew 25:31-46. Just because the sheep are commended for helping needy people and the goats are scolded for not helping them does not mean the basis for receiving eternal life or eternal punishment is based on works. If you read James 2 you can see that our works reflect our faith. So, the sheep receive eternal life based on their faith which is reflected in the compassion they showed for needy people.

Your claim that the sheep are not the church is utterly baseless and false. Christ doesn't have two groups of people who belong to Him, He has one. We (believers) are all one in Christ whether we're Jew or Gentile (Galatians 3:26-29).

It doesn't say where the judgment takes place. Why are you assuming that it's on earth when it doesn't say that? In Revelation 20:11-15 it says heaven and earth flee from His presence, so that shows the judgment doesn't take place on earth or in heaven. We're talking about God here so He can make it take place wherever He wants.

None of that is taught anywhere in scripture. it's quite noticeable that you never use scripture to support your opinions. You just state opinions as if that's enough. It's not.

You can stick with things you make up in your imagination if you want. I'll stick with scripture.

You are the one creating confusion. It's not confusing to me at all. Scripture repeatedly speaks of two groups. Jesus said in Matthew 12:30 that he who is not with Him is against Him. All people are either with Him (saved) or against Him (lost). And people are not saved based on nationality, either. Why make it any more complicated than that?

Show me the scripture which teaches that the sheep are not covered by the Atonement. It seems like you're just making things up as you go along since you never indicate where you are getting this from besides your imagination.
It is right there in Matthew 24 and 25. Not making it up. People conflate the Covenants and combine them into one. That is the issue. Not what I post.

Your interpretation is the point, where you conflate the church with the sheep and goats.

Paul says the church is caught up. Not separated like sheep and goats. The Second Coming is Christ on earth. It is not the GWT. Once again you lump the Second Coming with an event 1000 years later.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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It is right there in Matthew 24 and 25. Not making it up. People conflate the Covenants and combine them into one. That is the issue. Not what I post.

Your interpretation is the point, where you conflate the church with the sheep and goats.

Paul says the church is caught up. Not separated like sheep and goats. The Second Coming is Christ on earth. It is not the GWT. Once again you lump the Second Coming with an event 1000 years later.
Why did you not address any of my points? I'd particularly like to know your thoughts on what I said here:

I said:
Do you understand that the sheep receive "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared" for them "from the foundation of the world"? Are you suggesting that believers in the house of Jacob will receive eternal life because of their works rather than Christ's atonement? If so, show me where that is taught in scripture.
What do you think about what I said here? Where is your evidence to show that the sheep are from the house of Jacob? Where is your evidence to show that anyone will receive eternal life by some other means than through the atonement of Christ's blood?
 
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Timtofly

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Why did you not address any of my points? I'd particularly like to know your thoughts on what I said here:

What do you think about what I said here? Where is your evidence to show that the sheep are from the house of Jacob? Where is your evidence to show that anyone will receive eternal life by some other means than through the atonement of Christ's blood?
You cannot agree that the Cross happened before Creation. These sheep are going to live on and populate the earth. That was their inheritance before Creation and they are currently alive today, not even 200 years ago.

But every one seems to take a specific interpretation, ie the Second Coming, and make it about every one since Adam, or arbitrarily pick and choose who is included as sheep.
 
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BABerean2

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You are trying to turn these into sinful carnal corruptible bodies, where the soul has to leave the body.


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


.
 
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Timtofly

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Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Yes, both had dead bodies. No mention of the soul or spirit period.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You cannot agree that the Cross happened before Creation. These sheep are going to live on and populate the earth. That was their inheritance before Creation and they are currently alive today, not even 200 years ago.

But every one seems to take a specific interpretation, ie the Second Coming, and make it about every one since Adam, or arbitrarily pick and choose who is included as sheep.
As usual, you were not able to back up your claims with scripture. All opinion and no scripture. I asked you where is your evidence to show that the sheep are from the house of Jacob and where is your evidence to show that anyone will receive eternal life by some other means than through the atonement of Christ's blood and this is all you could come up with. No scripture.
 
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Timtofly

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As usual, you were not able to back up your claims with scripture. All opinion and no scripture. I asked you where is your evidence to show that the sheep are from the house of Jacob and where is your evidence to show that anyone will receive eternal life by some other means than through the atonement of Christ's blood and this is all you could come up with. No scripture.
You want Scripture to prove humans arbitrarily interpret Scripture to prove a point?

The Scripture is right there in the Olivet Discourse. The Second Coming happens before the sheep and goats are separated. Are you saying the separation is remote, and Jesus did not come to earth and set up His throne in Jerusalem? Matthew 24

“Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory. He will send out his angels with a great shofar; and they will gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Is this not the Second Coming?

Matthew 25

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, accompanied by all the angels, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates sheep from goats. The ‘sheep’ he will place at his right hand and the ‘goats’ at his left."

Is this not the Second Coming?


Who are parables given to? The church or the house of Israel. Is the church raptured at the Second Coming per Paul? Or is the church dragged out of all the Nations and displayed as sheep and goats?

After the church is complete and glorified at the Second Coming, then and only then will those near and dear to Him be gathered out of the Nations and separated as sheep and goats.

People are looking for Satan and his posse to show up. They will get the Second Coming instead. Some will still be flabbergasted and confused. "all the tribes of the Land will mourn".
 
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Timtofly

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TribulationSigns

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Your point being these are not ordinary humans.

Still does not refute their soul does not remain in this dead body for those 3.5 days.

They are not an example of ordinary people period.

I am trying to point out They are not ordinary people because of those verses.

You are trying to turn these into sinful carnal corruptible bodies, where the soul has to leave the body.

Rev 11:3-4
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

To believe Two Witnesses of Revelation chapter 11 as literally two olive trees and two candlesticks is absurd. They are quite clearly portraying the very same symbolism which is used throughout the Bible, and it is only by examining that symbolism that we will come to understand it's true meaning. I do not believe that we can understand the two witnesses of Revelation chapter eleven as two literal supernaturally empowered people who can turn waters into literal blood, and who literally kill everyone who tries to harm them by breathing fire out of their mouth upon them. Come on!

Moreover, I believe that it is prudent (rather than careless) for the sound-minded Bible student to understand that God uses imagery and figures to illustrate spiritual truths. And as we shall see in this study, it is very significant that the loosing of the beast from the bottomless pit can only occur 'at the conclusion' of the time which God has given the two Witnesses to testify. For example, the testimony of Two Witnesses for the purpose of salvation by preaching the gospel will come to an end because God has secured all Elect He intends to seal has been sealed through their testimony. That is what the Great Commission is all about! This was what the millennial kingdom is all about since Pentecost!

As I can see many people here rarely quote Scripture to back their position up. This is why many of them have forgotten that the Bible is it's own interpreter. We have to compare Scripture with Scripture to see what God talked about the Olive Trees and Candlesticks. We study to show ourselves approved unto God by EXAMINING SCRIPTURE against SCRIPTURE, the spiritual with the Spiritual. Not Scripture with world news, conspiracy theories, or national forestry.

I will not write a commentary about Olive Trees and Candlesticks here. This is just a symbolic picture of the indivisible Church (Elect) as it has been given the power to testify for this length of time. Moreover, so that there is no confusion about these being literally two men, God also enlightens us that these are the two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And that word standing is again the Greek word [histemi] illustrating they are able to stand with God by the support of Christ. They 'stand' before God and give assent to His will, His Word, and His purpose, because they are made righteous in Christ. They were empowered by God with His Spirit to preach Gospel to the world for the past 2,000 years. This was why God has Satan restrained or bound so that He can build His Church through His Two Witnesses until all Elect will be secured. Then the Beast will come out and kill (silence) the Two Witnesses' testimony. The salvation is no more for a little season.

We have our consistent and Biblical understanding of this imagery. The two witnesses are a representation of God's Church, and specifically in this context, God's 'true Church' (Elect), not the external covenant Church (professed believers). They are those who are 'standing before the God of the earth,' importing that they were strengthened in Christ, faithful messengers who adhere to His cause and testimonies.

If you want to know how Christians, as Two Witnesses, spew fire upon enemies, please feel free to ask. Else, you must have watched too many disaster movies from Hollywood lately.
 
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Timtofly

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two literal supernaturally empowered people who can turn waters into literal blood, and who literally kill everyone who tries to harm them by breathing fire out of their mouth upon them. Come on!
So Moses and Elijah are not two literal people? Could you explain them into your point? Because your NT example does not equate to the OT example. The OT had two literal witnesses, yet you deny that for the NT. There are 4 witnesses for God over the earth. No, not two literal olive trees and two literal candlesticks. How do you split the church into 4 different witnesses?
 
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Mainly looking for votes in the poll to see how popular each position is. Voting is anonymous so please vote.

surprised to see so many post tribbers, makes sense though because there will be SOOOOOO many left behind who are not ready or anxiously awaiting His return. Having said that, I believe these people must know in their spirit that they will go through the tribulation and therefore are angry that other's believe they will not. attached are 16 proofs of a pre tribulation rapture pdf
 

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Spiritual Jew

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surprised to see so many post tribbers, makes sense though because there will be SOOOOOO many left behind who are not ready or anxiously awaiting His return. Having said that, I believe these people must know in their spirit that they will go through the tribulation and therefore are angry that other's believe they will not. attached are 16 proofs of a pre tribulation rapture pdf
That's complete nonsense. Don't try to speak for other people. Just speak for yourself. People believe in post-trib because it's taught in scripture and not because they are angry at pre-tribbers.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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friend of

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That's complete nonsense. Don't try to speak for other people. Just speak for yourself. People believe in post-trib because it's taught in scripture and not because they are angry at pre-tribbers.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That describes the second coming.
 
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