Is it Wrong to Call Calvinism Unjust?

FreeGrace2 · Apr 9, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
You believe in Grace?

Just check my name. How could I not? And grace is free, btw.

You don't know what Calvinism is.

OK, inform me then.

This is what I said:

It's wrong to believe Calvinism. It is not biblical, in spite of all the protestations by calvinists who claim it is.

They cannot provide any verse that supports any of their TULIP points.

Now, IF IF IF you can provide at least 1 verse that plainly states each of the points of TULIP, then I will HAVE TO accept Calvinism.

But so far, there has been NO calvinist who has done that.

And don't quote from the WCF. That's not the Bible.

Just stick with the Bible for your evidence that calvinism is biblical.

Thank you.

Albion · Apr 9, 2021

Ben johnson said:
Calvinism by its own doctrines is unjust; God's justice responds to individual faith (Rm3:26), God's righteousness is revealed from our beginning faith to our ending faith, we are to live by faith, Rm1:17.

It's more the case that Calvinism simply reports on the processes and policies established by God...and then Men who don't care for them respond by calling these unjust.

But whether or not they are unjust, it's not as though Calvinism has invented them out of thin air or because it has some vested interest in painting God as unjust. More than many other varieties of Christianity, Calvinism "lets God be God" when it comes to his decision-making.

Brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
They are not! I have asked you for at least 1 verse that plainly states each point of TULIP, and you have ignored my request.

This proves that there are no verses that teach TULIP.

It's actually regardless of what you say. Your protestations are meaningless when you can't support your claims with Scripture.

To see "how" what?

There is NO verse that says that man cannot come to Him "naturally". That's just your opinion again.

And you have to ignore John 6:45 which directly follows v.44 in order to maintain your non-biblical claim.

Those who "come to Him" have "listened and learned from the Father."

It's all very clear.

Yes they are. Like total inability spiritually Jesus made that clear, no man can come to Him unless they are drawn, which is Divine Power intervening by the New Birth. It takes a work of the Sovereign Spirit of God. Jn 6:44,65

FreeGrace2 · Apr 9, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Yes they are.

Again, repeating a false statement doesn't change its falseness.

I said this:
"I have asked you for at least 1 verse that plainly states each point of TULIP, and you have ignored my request.

This proves that there are no verses that teach TULIP."

The fact is that you have not provided any verse for any of the points of TULIP.

Because there aren't any.

Like total inability spiritually Jesus made that clear

The truth of Scripture is that man is totally unable spiritually to save himself.

Calvinism goes off the deep end by falsely claiming that man cannot believe until regenerated.

Eph 2:5 equates salvation with being regenerated.
Eph 2:8 states that salvation, and thus regeneration, are THROUGH FAITH. This proves that regeneration follows faith. Obviously.

no man can come to Him unless they are drawn, which is Divine Power intervening by the New Birth. It takes a work of the Sovereign Spirit of God. Jn 6:44,65

These verses say nothing close to what you keep claiming. When are you going to provide any verses that actually DO say what you claim?

Albion · Apr 9, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
They are not! I have asked you for at least 1 verse that plainly states each point of TULIP, and you have ignored my request.

This proves that there are no verses that teach TULIP.

He may not have agreed to that request of yours, but there are many lists of Bible verses that purport to prove each point of the TULIP lineup. That's rather routine stuff in Calvinist circles.

Here is a presentation that is admirably detailed and systematic. And it has many Bible verses for you..
T.U.L.I.P. or, The Five Points of Calvinism (prca.org)

Brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Again, repeating a false statement doesn't change its falseness.

I said this:
"I have asked you for at least 1 verse that plainly states each point of TULIP, and you have ignored my request.

This proves that there are no verses that teach TULIP."

The fact is that you have not provided any verse for any of the points of TULIP.

Because there aren't any.

The truth of Scripture is that man is totally unable spiritually to save himself.

Calvinism goes off the deep end by falsely claiming that man cannot believe until regenerated.

Eph 2:5 equates salvation with being regenerated.
Eph 2:8 states that salvation, and thus regeneration, are THROUGH FAITH. This proves that regeneration follows faith. Obviously.

These verses say nothing close to what you keep claiming. When are you going to provide any verses that actually DO say what you claim?

Paul taught total depravity by declaring all men are under sins power Rom 3:9

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Again, repeating a false statement doesn't change its falseness.

I said this:
"I have asked you for at least 1 verse that plainly states each point of TULIP, and you have ignored my request.

This proves that there are no verses that teach TULIP."

The fact is that you have not provided any verse for any of the points of TULIP.

Because there aren't any.

The truth of Scripture is that man is totally unable spiritually to save himself.

Calvinism goes off the deep end by falsely claiming that man cannot believe until regenerated.

Eph 2:5 equates salvation with being regenerated.
Eph 2:8 states that salvation, and thus regeneration, are THROUGH FAITH. This proves that regeneration follows faith. Obviously.

These verses say nothing close to what you keep claiming. When are you going to provide any verses that actually DO say what you claim?

You the repeater friend ! BTW Faith is the fruit of the Spirit of regeneration Gal 5:22

FreeGrace2 · Apr 9, 2021

Albion said:
He may not have agreed to that request of yours, but there are many lists of Bible verses that purport to prove each point of the TULIP lineup. That's rather routine stuff in Calvinist circles.

Here is a presentation that is admirably detailed and systematic. And it has many Bible verses for you..
T.U.L.I.P. or, The Five Points of Calvinism (prca.org)

Thanks. In this particular list, the ONLY point that is biblical is the last one, the P for preservation.

But I've seen lists where the P stands for "perseverance of the saints", which is not biblical.

And none of the first 4 points included verses that actually stated the point.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 9, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Paul taught total depravity by declaring all men are under sins power Rom 3:9

That's the biblical view of total depravity. But calvinism goes way too far and claims that man cannot believe unless regenerated first. No verses for that theory.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

OK, now quote the verse that supports the REST of calvinist depravity. You know, about regeneration preceding salvation.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 9, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
You the repeater friend ! BTW Faith is the fruit of the Spirit of regeneration Gal 5:22

Let's take a peek at the verse:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Nope. "regeneration" isn't even mentioned. So once again, you simply mistate what verses actually say. And you ignore the context always.

You've ignored the key to understanding v.22-23, which is v.16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Every believer is either walking by the Spirit, or "filled with the Spirit" per Eph 5:18, or they are NOT walking by the Spirit, or "grieving" (Eph 4:30) or "quenching" the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

The fruit of the Spirit is evidence ONLY WHEN the believer is filled with the Spirit, or walking by the Spirit.

So your fantasy of regeneration simply doesn't exist in Gal 5:22.

Albion · Apr 9, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Thanks. In this particular list, the ONLY point that is biblical is the last one, the P for preservation.

But I've seen lists where the P stands for "perseverance of the saints", which is not biblical.

On that point, there are many verses to choose among. Consider the following,e for example --

John 10:27-29

John 6:39

Romans 11:29

Brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
That's the biblical view of total depravity. But calvinism goes way too far and claims that man cannot believe unless regenerated first. No verses for that theory.

OK, now quote the verse that supports the REST of calvinist depravity. You know, about regeneration preceding salvation.

Okay man being under the power of sin is his total depravity. Read Rom 3:9ff

Brightfame52 · Apr 9, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Let's take a peek at the verse:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Nope. "regeneration" isn't even mentioned. So once again, you simply mistate what verses actually say. And you ignore the context always.

You've ignored the key to understanding v.22-23, which is v.16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Every believer is either walking by the Spirit, or "filled with the Spirit" per Eph 5:18, or they are NOT walking by the Spirit, or "grieving" (Eph 4:30) or "quenching" the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

The fruit of the Spirit is evidence ONLY WHEN the believer is filled with the Spirit, or walking by the Spirit.

So your fantasy of regeneration simply doesn't exist in Gal 5:22.

Okay faith is the fruit of the Spirit, nothing has changed. Gal 5:22

FreeGrace2 · Apr 10, 2021

Albion said:
On that point, there are many verses to choose among. Consider the following,e for example --

John 10:27-29

John 20:28

Romans 11:29

Exactly. I absolutely agree with eternal security. What I don't agree with is that all believers will persevere in the faith. Luke 8:13 proves that some don't.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 10, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Okay man being under the power of sin is his total depravity. Read Rom 3:9ff

But you know this isn't the only point in the T. Calvinists, yourself included, also claim that man cannot believe untll regenerated.

So where is your evidence for that unbiblical claim?

FreeGrace2 · Apr 10, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Okay faith is the fruit of the Spirit, nothing has changed. Gal 5:22

It seems you don't even understand anything in Gal 5.

Since you disagree with me, why don't you address my points and show me how I'm wrong.

Albion · Apr 10, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Exactly. I absolutely agree with eternal security. What I don't agree with is that all believers will persevere in the faith.

Well, that's right, but the Elect will persevere, which is what "Perseverance of the Saints" is referring to.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 10, 2021

Albion said:
Well, that's right, but the Elect will persevere, which is what "Perseverance of the Saints" is referring to.

No they won't. It is not automatic or guaranteed.

And Luke 8:13 makes that clear. Some who believe will only believe for a while and in time of temptation/testing, will fall away.

That doesn't mean they lose salvation, but it does mean they didn't continue in the faith.

Further, if every believer WILL perservere in the faith, then these verses are totally unnecessary and irrelevant.

Acts 11:23 - When he arrived and saw what the grace of God had done, he was glad and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with all their hearts.

Acts 14:22 - strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said.

Col 1:23 - if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

So, you see, persevering in the faith is not automatic, or there would have been no need for being encouraged to "remain true to the Lord" or "remain true to the faith" or to "continue in your faith". None of these would need to have been said.

Albion · Apr 10, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
No they won't. It is not automatic or guaranteed.

As we know, that depends on one's interpretation of scripture and perhaps his church affiliation. I'm not arguing any of that.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 10, 2021

Albion said:
As we know, that depends on one's interpretation of scripture and perhaps his church affiliation. I'm not arguing any of that.

The meaning of "perseverance" isn't dependent upon one's church affiliation. It means to 'keep going'.

Jesus was clear that not all believers will keep going in the faith. Some will only believe for a while, and then fall away from the faith.

Is it Wrong to Call Calvinism Unjust?

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