Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,006
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
What does it mean, that Jesus "was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15

Friedrich Rubinstein says, "It is impossible that God could have created humans with a true free will who had not given in to temptation sooner or later. No creation of God could ever have a relationship with God as close as Jesus has, being with God in all eternity before Creation. No creation of God could ever have that amount of love for God as Jesus has."

Was Jesus created? Was his humanity created?

How could Jesus, without a sin nature, be tempted in every way as we are, who have sin natures?

He also had no habit of sin, no "old man", to overcome, so how is his temptation in every way like ours?

What are your thoughts? Related and relevant scriptures, context, logic, implications --all welcome.
 

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,667
9,977
78
Auckland
✟376,644.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think where folks come unstuck with this is that they forget that it is the Temptor who does the tempting.
In that sense we including Jesus are tempted with the same temptations.

In His case He never yielded - in our case we fail to resist from time to time.

There is no sin whatever in being tempted.

There is sin in yielding only.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,278
4,681
68
Tolworth
✟369,589.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Friedrich Rubinstein says, "It is impossible that God could have created humans with a true free will who

A clear case of " Did God really say? "
Yes God did creat two people, Adam and Eve who had true freewill.
They could choose to obey God or disobey, no one else has that choice.

Except for Jesus, who being fully man/human was also God.
He did not have to sin and could be tempted by the devil without also giving in to it.

Yes Jesus' had never driven a car at you speed, he has not experience the temptation to ' floor it! '.
So what you are not tempted by sensations you have not experienced yet you are tempted and know what it is to resist.
Jesus experienced temptation, he experienced it at a level none of us have experienced. He had the devil personally using all his experience, skill and powers to tempt Jesus.
Note we are only told of the desert temptation, nothing is said about the devil's rematches.
 
Upvote 0

Friedrich Rubinstein

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2020
1,243
1,303
Europe
Visit site
✟171,138.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Was Jesus created?
The Bible makes very clear that Jesus is God himself (Isaiah 9:5; Mt 14:33; John 8:58; John 10:30; John 20:28-29; Colossians 1:15-16; Titus 2:13-14; John 1:1+14; John 1:18; Romans 9:5) and existed in eternity.

Was his humanity created?
We humans are made in the image of God. Jesus is not like we humans are. We humans are like Jesus is.

Now we live in a fallen Creation, and our original, real humanity was infected by evil. We are less human than God created us to be.

How could Jesus, without a sin nature, be tempted in every way as we are, who have sin natures?
It says in Hebrews 12:1 "[...] let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles". The devil is the one who is tempting us, not our soul. Sin attacks us from the outside to raise sinful desires inside. The "original sin" that Jesus did not have is mere "separation from God since birth". Jesus had a relationship with his heavenly Father since birth, but this relationship helped him to overcome temptation, it did not prevent temptation. Having a human nature Jesus was as prone to the attacks of the devil as we are.

He also had no habit of sin, no "old man", to overcome, so how is his temptation in every way like ours?
I don't think we sin out of a habit. Otherwise there would be people who never developed such a habit. We sin because the devil raises desires in us which are against God's will.
There is a fine difference between temptation and sin. Jesus was tempted in every way as we are, but he never sinned. Jesus was tempted to be upset with his parents as a child, but he never gave in to it. Jesus was tempted to be angry at people sometimes, just as we are, but he never allowed that feeling to take him over. Jesus was tempted to think of something impure when he saw a beautiful woman, but he never allowed himself to pursue such thoughts, he never let it become lust.

Perhaps you know thoughts like "I will give in to temptation this one time, next time I will resist!" Jesus knew why he had become a human being. He knew that if he gave in to temptation a single time his mission had failed. It’s actually a much harder fight against temptation when you cannot allow yourself a slip-up!

That’s why the Bible says of Jesus that he had to learn obedience to God screaming and in tears (Hebrews 5:7-8).
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,006
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
I think where folks come unstuck with this is that they forget that it is the Temptor who does the tempting.
In that sense we including Jesus are tempted with the same temptations.

In His case He never yielded - in our case we fail to resist from time to time.

There is no sin whatever in being tempted.

There is sin in yielding only.
I agree. In this thread it was discussed as a side issue here:
Pain, Evil and Suffering
and here:Pain, Evil and Suffering

In this thread John Calvin, it is claimed, disagrees with Augustine, concerning the nature of temptation: I disagreed; I said Calvin merely is referring to temptation entertained --i.e. 'flirting with' temptaion --that is sin. In this link you will see the quote from Calvin and some of our commentary on it and on our subject of Jesus situation"
Pain, Evil and Suffering

Interesting reading.
 
Upvote 0

GDL

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2020
4,247
1,255
SE
✟97,887.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,006
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
"Content to designate it with the term "weakness," he (Augustine) teaches that it becomes sin only when either act or consent follows the conceiving or apprehension of it, that is, when the will yields to the first strong inclination. We, on the other hand, deem it sin when man is tickled by any desire at all against the law of God. Indeed, we label "sin" that very depravity which begets in us desires of this sort" (Institutes III.III.10).

A clear case of " Did God really say? "
Yes God did creat two people, Adam and Eve who had true freewill.
They could choose to obey God or disobey, no one else has that choice.

Except for Jesus, who being fully man/human was also God.
He did not have to sin and could be tempted by the devil without also giving in to it.

While I sympathize with your reaction to the quote, I think maybe you mistook what he meant by freewill. I mean, I can disagree with both of you --you --we DO have choice, but it is not unfettered, it is not absent of causes.

Yes Jesus' had never driven a car at you speed, he has not experience the temptation to ' floor it! '.
So what you are not tempted by sensations you have not experienced yet you are tempted and know what it is to resist.
Jesus experienced temptation, he experienced it at a level none of us have experienced. He had the devil personally using all his experience, skill and powers to tempt Jesus.
Note we are only told of the desert temptation, nothing is said about the devil's rematches.

Good point about the devil's tempting Christ. We really don't know what it took for Christ to live for us, including before his public ministry.
 
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,445
✟149,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What does it mean, that Jesus "was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15

Friedrich Rubinstein says, "It is impossible that God could have created humans with a true free will who had not given in to temptation sooner or later. No creation of God could ever have a relationship with God as close as Jesus has, being with God in all eternity before Creation. No creation of God could ever have that amount of love for God as Jesus has."

Was Jesus created? Was his humanity created?

How could Jesus, without a sin nature, be tempted in every way as we are, who have sin natures?

He also had no habit of sin, no "old man", to overcome, so how is his temptation in every way like ours?

What are your thoughts? Related and relevant scriptures, context, logic, implications --all welcome.
Is this whole line of thought another way to discredit the idea of free will? Are you seriously trying to say Jesus didn't have free will?
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,006
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Is this whole line of thought another way to discredit the idea of free will? Are you seriously trying to say Jesus didn't have free will?
I had no intention of bringing the freewill debate into this. If it falls in, fine; if not, fine. Why do you ask -- do you find it relevant to the discussion?
 
Upvote 0