Observations About Free-willian Bible Interpretation And Free-willian Writings

Kermos · Mar 23, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
I told you why, too. Your "interpretations" aren't even close.

Eph 1:4 makes very clear that ALL believers were chosen before the foundation of the world. So there.

God imparts believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29), so righteous faith/belief is not a work of man rather righteous belief/faith is the work of God!

By the way, this post properly exegetes Ephesians 1:4.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Kermos · Mar 25, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
You really shouldn??t stereotype my friend. Don??t judge all who believe in free will by the errors of a few within that group. That??s called bigotry. It??s best to just address each individual case as they present themselves. If you??d like to discuss the matter of free will I??ll be more than happy to accommodate you in a polite and friendly manner my friend.

In the original post, in addition to an example of cross referencing scripture with scripture, I outlined some characteristics of free-willians/self-willians.

If you call it stereotyping, then that's you.

I call it accurate characteristization of free-willians.

The most profound point is that free-willians must add to and subtract from scripture to achieve the self-willian position (2 Peter 2:9-10).

For example, you, BNR32FAN, engaged in the an instance the original post's INCIDENT EXAMPLE THREE in which you circled back to repeat exposed self-willian belief error as revealed in this post in the thread "If God withholds grace".

BNR32FAN · Mar 25, 2021

Kermos said:
In the original post, in addition to an example of cross referencing scripture with scripture, I outlined some characteristics of free-willians/self-willians.

If you call it stereotyping, then that's you.

I call it accurate characteristization of free-willians.

The most profound point is that free-willians must add to and subtract from scripture to achieve the self-willian position (2 Peter 2:9-10).

For example, you, BNR32FAN, engaged in the an instance the original post's INCIDENT EXAMPLE THREE in which you circled back to repeat exposed self-willian belief error as revealed in this post in the thread "If God withholds grace".

I’m not adding anything to scripture that’s a false accusation. Examples of free will are all throughout the scriptures. Here’s a few examples.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here we can see that God has bestowed grace upon these individuals because only by His grace can they be capable of repentance and yet because of their stubbornness and unrepentant heart they are storing up for themselves God’s righteous judgement. If they didn’t have free will they wouldn’t be able to resist God’s grace but this passage clearly says they are resisting God’s grace even tho God has bestowed them with the ability to repent.

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again here is another clear example where God has bestowed grace and yet Jezebel does not WANT to repent. It doesn’t say God did not allow her to repent, if He didn’t want her to repent then He wouldn’t have given her time to repent. This shows that God gave Jezebel the opportunity to repent and she rejected it because she didn’t WANT to of her own free will. This was the result of her will not God’s otherwise her resistance towards repentance would’ve been God’s want and not her own.

In Genesis 6:5-6 the scriptures say that God was grieved in His heart by the wickedness of man. Why would God be grieved in His heart if He knew that their wickedness was the result of His decision to not choose them for salvation and bestow grace upon them?

According to Romans 10:21 God has stretched out His hands to a disobedient obstinate people. Is God stretching out His hands to people He hasn’t elected knowing that they are in total depravity and are incapable of repentance? That wouldn’t make any sense unless they were capable of repenting but were choosing of their own free will to be stubborn. But according to the doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist grace. So if Calvin was correct either these people have been elected by God and are resisting grace or they have not been elected by God and yet God is expecting them to repent while they are incapable of doing so. Either way Calvin’s doctrines aren’t making any sense here.

In John 5:34 Jesus is speaking to Jews who are seeking to kill Him and he says to them

“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:34‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He didn’t say that the will be saved He said He is telling them these things so that they MAY be saved. So there is no guarantee either way that they would be saved or that they wouldn’t be saved. The context here is that Jesus is trying to save them but the uncertainty is due to their own free will to choose whether or not they will repent and believe.

Romans 11:17-23 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted in by God of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity a person is incapable of believing unless they are elected by God. According to Calvin’s doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist God’s grace and election. So how can a person be grafted into the olive tree and later cut off for unbelief if they were incapable of believing to begin with unless they are elected by God and incapable of resisting grace and election? This is another clear example that our free will to choose determines whether or not we will actually receive salvation.

In Luke 13:6-9 Jesus makes it clear that even despite giving people special attention it is still uncertain whether or not they will bear fruit or if they will be chopped down.

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So you see my theology is backed very strongly by the scriptures. I have several more I can share to support my position.

Clare73 · Mar 25, 2021

Kermos said:
Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

After corresponding and speaking with free-willians about the scriptural errancy of free will, a trend emerges about interpretations.

Free-willians cry foul when I interpret free-willian's writings, yet free-willians manipulatively interpret free will into the Word of God imagining that it's acceptable.

Because of this, free-willians exhibit hypocrisy.

Free-willians express the concept to God: do as I say, not as I do.

I accurately paraphrase and restate the writings of free-willians to demonstrate their error; on the other hand, free-willians add to and subtract from scripture to fabricate their free will foundation, and this is demonstratable.

INCIDENT EXAMPLE ONE

For example, a free willian wrote that "I could refute it all, but you've shown that would be a waste of time" thus essentially writing that discussing scripture was "a waste of time", so I paraphrased the free willian by indicating the free willian called discussing scripture worthless. The free-willian later called it "complete misrepresentation", yet the free-willian not once cited scripture for the free-willian's unsupported promotion of free will for Adam in the subject thread, so hypocrisy manifests. The free-willian takes offense at my interpretation of the free-willian's writings, but the free-willian thinks that God just needs to take the free-willian's interpretation of scripture.

Discussing scripture is not "a waste of time".

The Word of God does not return void (Isaiah 55:11).

The Word of God is good for correction (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

The Word of God will never pass away (Matthew 24:35).

The Word of God is the Power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16).

The free-willian fails to understand about the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

INCIDENT EXAMPLE TWO

In another incident as an example, another free-willian quoted commentary which I pointed out the superiority and importance of scripture to wit the free-willian replied "I DO NOT QUOTE COMMENTARIES", so instead of acknowledging the free-willian's use of commentary the free-willian denied using commentary in a traceable lie in the thread.

INCIDENT EXAMPLE THREE

In yet a third example, free willians rarely acknowledge correction about their misinterpreted scripture. Very frequently they disappear from a thread, go silent about the subject, or switch subjects - in some cases circling back to repeat their exposed error. A different free-willian acknowledged the free-willian's misinterpretation of scripture with "I can see that you have found room to squirm around Rev. 22:17" after the free willian misinterpretation was exposed. That free willian response sounds quite unrepentant for trying to alter Revelation 22:17.

In the pride of free-willian claimed choice toward God, they are unapologetic for their exposed errors again and again. Exposed by the Word of God, yet they are not only unapologetic to God for trying to abuse the Word of God, but they appear unrepentant in their pride. The proud will fall in the last day without the intervention of the Sovereign Lord (Proverbs 16:18, 2 Peter 2:9-10).

Free-willians exhibit more than hypocrisy that angers God, their free will foundation is shifting sand (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 7:26-27).

Lord Jesus railed against hypocrites when the Word of God says "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence" (Matthew 23:25, more Matthew 23:13-36).

Many Biblical passages express the evil of man altering scripture, including Revelation 22:18-19.

The Sovereignty of God in man's salvation with no basis in man's choice is absolutely evident when taking scripture with scripture as is prudent, and it is done in this essay: Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor

SCRIPTURE CROSS REFERENCING

Cross referencing scripture functions in this manner.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

In the same passage, Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), so Jesus' words include salvation in the passage.

Jesus uses "you" to refer to all believers in all time for many reasons, including that after the ascension of Jesus the Apostle Peter spoke of the Gentiles when he said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16), and Lord Jesus told the "you" at the same time as John 15:16 and John 15:19 with His words of "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [that is] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you" (John 14:26-27).

The sequence, John 15:16 - John 15:19 - Acts 11:16 - John 14:26:27, ties everything together, so this is a first avenue for man's inability to choose Jesus.

Investigating a separate avenue of bringing God's exclusive choosing of man unto salvation is the passage:

"When the disciples heard [this], they were very astonished and said, 'Then who can be saved?' And looking at [them] Jesus said to them, 'With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'" (Matthew 19:25-26). This exchange exposes that man cannot "do" something to be saved, and that "do" includes man "doing" a choosing of Jesus.

The correlation between John 15:16 - John 15:19 - Matthew 19:25-26 ties everything together, so this is a second avenue for man's inability to choose Jesus.

This concludes the cross referencing scripture example.

God saves (Psalm 3:8, John 15:5), and man has no say in the matter (John 15:16). God sanctifies (Leviticus 20:8, John 15:5). God gets all glory in the salvation and sanctification of man (Isaiah 42:8).

God declares Who God is by the Word of God.

Humility is contrary to free will because free will includes a person exercising a choice, so there is pride in the claim of being able to choose.

Do you think a free willian can stick to scripture and remain a free willian?

Free will is the moral power to execute all choices.

Scripture denies the total free will of man--"Everyone who sins is a slave to sin." Slaves aren't free.

Scripture presents a limited free will: the ability to choose without external constraint according to our preference, likes, etc.

I do not have total free will (moral power), I cannot choose to be sinless.

But I do have freedom to choose according to my preferences, likes, etc.

Kermos · Mar 26, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
I notice you quoted John 15:16, what about John 15:2 and John 15:6? I agree with you that no one can accept Christ unless he has been granted grace from The Father but the scriptures are clear that The Father grants grace to some who later fall away. Grace enables us to believe and repent it does not force us to. A person still hasn??t lost their free will when they received God??s grace.

According to the Word of God, no one can "accept" Christ because "accept" means "choose".

Since the Word of God says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), then His words mean that a person does not "accept" Him.

John 15:2 does NOT include anything that states there are branches that do not bear fruit.

In John 15:6, Jesus says "If anyone does not abide in Me" then such a one was never in Christ, so that is not a branch in Christ that is cast into the fire and burned.

Well, those two passages do not indicate "some who later fall away" as you claim.

When you wrote "Grace enables us to believe and repent it does not force us to", you wrote deception about "believe" and "repent" by applying them both to men instead of God alone, and the following scripture illumines your deception

Our gracious Benefactor, the One True God, produces

beneficiaries' faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

AND Paul is in accord with Jesus' words for he wrote to the Ephesians "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8-10)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God
beneficiaries' repent by God's working, for the Christ of us Christians says
"I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Matthew 11:25)

AND the apostles and elders glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life" (Acts 11:18)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in Matthew 11:25 state that God causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)

Kermos · Apr 6, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Free will does exist in the scriptures. Romans 2 is a perfect example.

??Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL REPAY EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.??
????Romans?? ??2:4-11?? ??NASB2020????

God has granted these people grace and yet by their own free will they are stubbornly refusing to repent.

I do not find the words "free will" in Romans 2:4-11. Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul didn't use the words "free will".

I do not find the words "choose" nor it's conjugates in Romans 2:4-11. Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul didn't use the words "choose" nor it's conjugates.

Therefore, when you wrote "Free will does exist in the scriptures. Romans 2 is a perfect example", you lied.

You wrote "God has granted these people grace and yet by their own free will".

Paul wrote "God leads you to repentance" (Romans 2:4). The Apostles say God grants the repentance to life (Acts 11:18).

Repentance means to think differently afterward, so God causes persons that God saves to think differently after the encounter with God which leads to life eternal, and this is an absolutely assured event by God for the persons.

As for the people that are not granted repentance, those people remain in the first things (2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 5:12), so their nature opposes God.

WOW, your writing opposes the Apostle Paul's writing!

You free-willians pridefully add to scripture, thus you put yourselves above the Most High God in your minds as you redefine scripture!

BNR32FAN · Apr 6, 2021

Kermos said:
Repentance means to think differently afterward, so God causes persons that God saves to think differently after the encounter with God which leads to life eternal, and this is an absolutely assured event by God for the persons.

If eternal life were an assured event for those whom God is leading to repentance then these people wouldn’t be storing up His wrath on judgement day because of their stubbornness and unwillingness to repent. So according to Romans 2:4-5 God leading a person to repentance does not guarantee their salvation. Those who receive salvation will not receive God’s wrath on judgement day.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 7, 2021

Kermos said:
Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

After corresponding and speaking with free-willians about the scriptural errancy of free will, a trend emerges about interpretations.

Do you think a free willian can stick to scripture and remain a free willian?

There are 2 absolute proofs of free will in the Bible.

However, first the definition of free will must be understood and accepted or there will be no use for further discussion.

It seems many Calvinists who reject free will treat those who accept free will as believing that free will is or has some kind of "special power". That is totally inaccurate.

Free will is nothing more or less than opportunity. There is obviously no "power" in opportunity. Free will is expressed by choosing between available options.

For example, I cannot choose to change the weather.

However, I can choose to believe any post I read on this forum, or to reject any post on this forum.

When faced with posts, I have a choice to make; do it believe it or not.

If I have choices between options, then I have free will.

If I do not have choices to make, then I have no free will.

Now, if the OP can accept this definition of free will, we can have a reasonable discussion about free will.

The 2 biblical proofs of free will are found by:

1. In Acts there are 2 verses that say that "they refused to believe". This demonstrates a choice and ability to choose.

It is simply nonsense to claim that someone can refuse to do what they are unable to do. And there is no kind of example that proves otherwise.

2. The Bible is full of commands to obey. This also proves free will. And shows that those commanded have the ability to obey.

If someone has no ability to obey, and is given a command to obey, that would be totally nuts. And there is no example that proves otherwise.

Kermos · Apr 7, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
He just finished telling them to remain in Him like 10 statements ago.

??Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself but must remain in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you remain in Me, and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I also have loved you; remain in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love; just as I have kept My Father??s commandments and remain in His love.??
????John?? ??15:4-10?? ??NASB2020????

How is that not a perfect example of free will?

That "remain in Me" (John 15:4) is a command, and the command does not state that a person has free will to obey the command, in fact, in nearly the same breath, the Word of God says "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), so NONE of the good fruit can be done without God doing things in persons!

Hmm, let's see, where are the words "free-will" in the passage, hmmm, the words "free will" are absent.

Now, what about "choose" or it's conjugates in John 15:4-10, hmm, the word "choose" and it's conjugates are absent.

That which you present as an example of free will is completely devoid of free will.

The John 15:4-10 passage is the perfect example of God in control of man's salvation.

The passage is the perfect example of God working fruit in we believers.

And, the Word of God says with relevance to John 15:4-10 when He says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

So, all the good fruit, the good deeds, of we believers are wrought in God!

Anybody who claims otherwise is an attempted thief and liar.

THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE THAT STATES MAN HAS A FREE WILL TO CHOOSE JESUS.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

BNR32FAN · Apr 7, 2021

Kermos said:
That "remain in Me" (John 15:4) is a command, and the command does not state that a person has free will to obey the command, in fact, in nearly the same breath, the Word of God says "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), so NONE of the good fruit can be done without God doing things in persons!

So they didn’t have the free will to obey the command so your saying that no matter what they do they could not possibly fall away from Christ? Then why tell them to remain in the first place if it is impossible for them to fall away? You honestly refuse to even think about what your implying here. Your saying that Jesus told them not to do something that, according to you, is impossible for them to do. If it’s impossible for someone to fall away from Christ then how is it that He said in verse 6 anyone who does not remain in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned? Then in verse 7 He says “IF YOU REMAIN IN ME”. That’s an indication that they must meet a condition in order to receive the promise. If they could not possibly fall away then He would’ve said “since you will remain in Me or because you will remain in Me. Using the word IF indicates a condition that must be met.

BNR32FAN · Apr 7, 2021

Kermos said:
Hmm, let's see, where are the words "free-will" in the passage, hmmm, the words "free will" are absent.

Now, what about "choose" or it's conjugates in John 15:4-10, hmm, the word "choose" and it's conjugates are absent.

Oh my goodness what a monumentally weak argument your making here. Ok I’ll play along.

Hmmm... Let’s see, where is the word Trinity in the entire bible? Oh it’s not in there, guess that means there’s no such doctrine as the Trinity. DERP!!!

Kermos · Apr 9, 2021

bling said:
??Believing something is not ??work??, by God??s definition of work, since all Jews were commanded not to work on the ??Sabbath??, yet they were to trust God (have faith in God/believe in God) on the Sabbath. The Jews were allowed to do lots of stuff on the Sabbath, but they were not to ??work?? on the Sabbath.

You are not using the most likely interpretation of Ep. 2:8-9:

People use Eph 2:8 ??For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God?? to show ??faith?? is a gift and forget about verse 9 which says: ??not by works, so that no one can boast.?? The gift cannot be grammatical correct and be ??faith??, but you do not have to know Greek, just look at verse 9. If ??faith?? were the gift then Paul is telling us faith cannot be worked for and earned which is not logical or discussed as even an option anywhere else. How would people go about working to obtain faith anyway (it is to quit working, trying to do it yourself and start trusting). The ??gift?? in Eph. 2:8 is the whole salvation process which Paul talks about in other places, showing people trying to earn salvation.

I can look up genders and dust off my Greek New Testament, but here is what Barnes and Robertson have to say and they do an honest job as far as I can tell:

And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - ?? touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - ?? pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" ( ?? touto ) refers to "faith" ( ?? pistis ); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.

Robertson, on the topic of pronouns, wrote:

9. Gender and Number of outos. ... In general, like other adjectives, outos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive. ... In Eph. 2:8 , ..., there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, p.704)

Robertson, on the topic of particles, wrote:

(ii) Kai. ... The Mere Connective ('And') ... kai tauta (frequent in ancient Greek). See in particular Eph. 2:8 , kai touto ouk ex umon, where touto refers to the whole conception, not to chariti. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 1181-1182)

Robertson, on the topic of prepositions, wrote:

(d) dia ... 3. 'Passing Between' or 'Through.' The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. 'Through' is thus not the original meaning of dia, but is a very common one. ... The agent may also be expressed by dia. This function was also performed in the ancient Greek, through, when means or instrument was meant, the instrumental case was commonly employed. dia is thus used with inanimate and animate objects. Here, of course, the agent is conceived as coming in between the non-attainmnet and the attainment of the object in view. ... Abstract ideas are frequently so expressed, as sesosmenoi dia pisteos (Eph. 2:8 ), ... (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 580-582)

"Gift" and "faith," are both nouns and would not need to agree. However, agreement in gender is necessary between a pronoun and its antecedent. The demonstrative pronoun will change its gender to match the previous noun (or other substantive) to which it refers.

This verse tells us that the antecedent for "This" is also the "gift of God." But the "gift" cannot be "faith" because there is no agreement in gender between "faith" and the demonstrative pronoun, "touto" (This).

You can look up lots of Greek scholars work and let me know if you find any one disagreeing with this, because I have not among scholars.

I do agree ??natural faith?? which all mature adults have is a gift from God and, as we know from scripture: people do place natural faith in lots of things and people even worshipping rocks and wood.

The question that needs to be asked: can this God given natural faith be directed toward the Creator, just to believe in the possibility of God??s existence? Since it takes more faith and really foolishness to believe a god does not exist.

You also need to remember the Greek word translated ??Faith?? in the English is also translated faithfulness. I would say one of the gifts of the Spirit is faithfulness and not faith itself.

You also seem to be assuming that if the nonbelieving sinner has just some kind of ??faith??, he will make the noble, honorable, worthy, righteous and holy choice to follow God, but that type of ??faith?? comes much later and is part of the unbelievable wonderful gifts God showers on the sinner.

The ??faith/trust??, autonomous free will choice the sinner makes is between: being macho, hanging in there, being a good soldier, and being willing to take the punishment you fully deserve or wimping out, giving up and surrendering to your enemy. Like any soldier who surrenders to his enemy, you hate your enemy, but are just willing to humbly accept undeserving charity from your enemy. That little questionable ??trust?? in the possibility of your enemy having an unbelievable Love that could help you is all the faith you need.

What do you consider to be man??s objective while here on earth, since the Bible has lots of ??commands?? to follow and any scripture given command has scriptural support for being ??man??s objective???

28 Then they asked him, ??What must we do to do the works God requires??? 29 Jesus answered, ??The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.??

Again, we might need to go back to the Greek grammar to see what ??work?? Jesus is talking about in context and we will find it is the ??work?? the group was asking about them doing and not God??s actual personal labor He is doing. The work=believe and God does not need to believe anything, since He knows, so it has to refer to their believing as being their Kingdom ??work??.

I was not suggesting that.

I did not say: ??Sinful man chooses God??, since that would be honorable, righteous, noble, worthy and glorious. I am saying sinful man can chose to wimp out, give up and surrender to his enemy (God) while God is still his enemy he is just willing to humbly accept (his enemy??s/God??s) charity.

Jesus chose the 12, you are the one adding: ??including salvation??, since that is not in those verses.

I just got through saying the sinner did not ??choose?? Jesus/God, that is something those who already have salvation, Love, a church family, and a wonderful purpose in life will choose. Jesus/God is the sinner??s enemies.

There is no scripture which says: ??God forces a person to accept His charity.?? Did God offer you, His charity (underserving, selfless gift) or was it forced upon you like some shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun?

I know it is very hard for humans to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity and will do or say almost anything to avoid having to admit to accepting pure undeserved charity, so did you ever have to accept God??s charity or did God do that for you?

You provide the answer with: ??those also who believe in Me through their word??, salvation comes to those other than the 12 through the ??words?? of the 12, by the individuals believing as a result of the words and not through some other means.

You have confused "the work of man" as opposed to "the work of God" with regard to salvation.

Lord Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Jesus attributes the entire package of "that you believe in Him whom He has sent", this complete gift that needs NOTHING more be done by the human recipient, this whole thing is attributed as "This is the work of God"; therefore, the righteous faith/belief in a person is the work of God.

The Holy Spirit interprets scripture thus revealing the meaning to the children of God (2 Peter 1:20-21), and I depend on the Holy Spirit of the Living God.

You appeal to the precepts of men such as "Barnes and Robertson" instead of the scripture.

Paul wrote that three of (1) grace, (2) saved, and (3) faith/belief are not of man in Ephesians 2:8-10. Neither grace nor saved nor faith/belief are of man.

Paul wrote, as a continuation of the Ephesians 2:8-9 passage, "for we are His work" (Ephesians 2:10), and Paul wrote this as part of faith/belief not being a work of man (Ephesians 2:9).

Paul wrote that faith/belief is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8), and Paul wrote that faith/belief is not a work of man (Ephesians 2:9), and Paul wrote that saved persons are God's work (Ephesians 2:10).

In your "Barnes and Robertson", they discuss gender, and they try to disconnect faith/belief from "that" in "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" wrote that "faith" is feminine while "that" is neuter so then "faith" is excluded while "the salvation by grace" is included by the "that".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" failed to write the word/gender combinations of each of the four words, so here they are:

grace/feminine
saved/masculine
faith/feminine
that/neuter

Wow, look at that, your "Barnes and Robertson" include "grace" even though it's "feminine", but your "Barnes and Robertson" remove "faith" even though it's "feminine".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" is the precepts of men because your "Barnes and Robertson" does not properly represent the linguistics since your "Barnes and Robertson" arbitrarily apply grammar.

A person who follows such precepts of men worship God in vain (Matthew 15:9).

Furthermore, faith/belief is adjacent to "and that not of yourselves"; therefore, faith/belief is definitely among that which is "not of yourselves", The word pisteos (pistis/faith/belief) linguistically relative posiition to the subsequent phrase of "and that not of yourselves" indicates the inclusion of pisteos in "that not of yourselves".

Paul is in accord with the recorded words of Lord Jesus Christ (John 6:29).

Faith/belief is not manipulated by man in order for man to point said faith/belief at Jesus, and a person claiming to manipulate said faith/belief appeals to free-will or choice both of which are a work of the person which adds to and subtracts from scripture.

Faith/belief is manipulated by God in man to cause man to be saved from the wrath of God, and this is righteous faith/belief (John 6:29) which scripture reveals.

You have people choosing Jesus despite Jesus saying "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

Here is an example of you writing that a person must do a "work" when you wrote "I know it is very hard for humans to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity".

The gift of faith/belief unto salvation is implanted by God for the Christ says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Persons that hear the Word are persons of whom the Word (John 1:14) has opened the ears (Mark 7:32-35).

Do not be deceived, a person does not hear without the opening of the ears by God (Mark 7:32-35).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

bling · Apr 9, 2021

Kermos said:
You have confused "the work of man" as opposed to "the work of God" with regard to salvation.

Lord Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Jesus attributes the entire package of "that you believe in Him whom He has sent", this complete gift that needs NOTHING more be done by the human recipient, this whole thing is attributed as "This is the work of God"; therefore, the righteous faith/belief in a person is the work of God.

Wow! You have to read John 6:29 in the context. The audience Jesus is addressing had just shockingly, miraculously been fed the day before with more food than they could eat as a pure underserving charitable gift (they might have felt He was rewarding them for setting and listening, but they really did nothing). This group is not there for more teaching, but likes the way Jesus rewards and want Jesus to go on leading them and rewarding/paying them, miraculously.

Jesus starts off rebuking them by saying: 27 “Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.” Which introduces the idea of them working for something spiritual (and not the physical they are wanting from Jesus). Jesus is talking about them “doing” something. We see it is the food (eternal life food) that Jesus is saying He will give them, but this “work” is something they do.

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus then answers very plainly about the work God required of them for them to do:

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

In context it would thus be: “The work God requires them to do is “believe”. Jesus is not talking philosophically about some “work” God does for them, but what Spiritual “work” in the Spiritual world they must do “for food that endures to eternal life.”.

Kermos said:
The Holy Spirit interprets scripture thus revealing the meaning to the children of God (2 Peter 1:20-21), and I depend on the Holy Spirit of the Living God.

You appeal to the precepts of men such as "Barnes and Robertson" instead of the scripture.

The Bible is not the work of men 2 Peter1 :20-21, which we are in agreement.

We still have to interpreted scripture in context, since it was not directly written to us and the fact you have many different interpretations of scripture by some excellent Biblical Scholars means some or all are wrong. “Barnes and Robertson” went back to the Greek to show how one interpretation of Eph. 2:8-10 is superior to other interpretations, in the Greek.

Kermos said:
Paul wrote that three of (1) grace, (2) saved, and (3) faith/belief are not of man in Ephesians 2:8-10. Neither grace nor saved nor faith/belief are of man.

Paul wrote, as a continuation of the Ephesians 2:8-9 passage, "for we are His work" (Ephesians 2:10), and Paul wrote this as part of faith/belief not being a work of man (Ephesians 2:9).

Paul wrote that faith/belief is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8), and Paul wrote that faith/belief is not a work of man (Ephesians 2:9), and Paul wrote that saved persons are God's work (Ephesians 2:10).

Paul is saying what ever he is talking about (you feel it is faith and I and others see it as salvation) is 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Paul does talk about in other places people trying to work and earn their salvation, which if earned would be something to boast about.

BUT Paul and no one else in scripture talks about working to obtain “faith”, so how could Paul talk about such an impossibility here. Faith cannot be worked for and is virtually the opposite of working. You might work to obtain “knowledge”, while giving up on working for knowledge and relying on trust (faith) is not something you work at doing.

Kermos said:
In your "Barnes and Robertson", they discuss gender, and they try to disconnect faith/belief from "that" in "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" wrote that "faith" is feminine while "that" is neuter so then "faith" is excluded while "the salvation by grace" is included by the "that".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" failed to write the word/gender combinations of each of the four words, so here they are:

grace/feminine

saved/masculine

faith/feminine

that/neuter

Wow, look at that, your "Barnes and Robertson" include "grace" even though it's "feminine", but your "Barnes and Robertson" remove "faith" even though it's "feminine".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" is the precepts of men because your "Barnes and Robertson" does not properly represent the linguistics since your "Barnes and Robertson" arbitrarily apply grammar.

The neuter “that” refers to the combination of words saved (salvation) that is of faith, where the “faith” is just part of describing the salvation. If Paul had said “saving faith” (which he did not do), you might have something.

I have read other Greek scholars on this verse and not found another way to interpret it, but please lead me to a scholar with a different idea?

Kermos said:
A person who follows such precepts of men worship God in vain (Matthew 15:9).

Furthermore, faith/belief is adjacent to "and that not of yourselves"; therefore, faith/belief is definitely among that which is "not of yourselves", The word pisteos (pistis/faith/belief) linguistically relative posiition to the subsequent phrase of "and that not of yourselves" indicates the inclusion of pisteos in "that not of yourselves".

Paul is in accord with the recorded words of Lord Jesus Christ (John 6:29).

Faith/belief is not manipulated by man in order for man to point said faith/belief at Jesus, and a person claiming to manipulate said faith/belief appeals to free-will or choice both of which are a work of the person which adds to and subtracts from scripture.

Faith/belief is manipulated by God in man to cause man to be saved from the wrath of God, and this is righteous faith/belief (John 6:29) which scripture reveals.

You have people choosing Jesus despite Jesus saying "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

Here is an example of you writing that a person must do a "work" when you wrote "I know it is very hard for humans to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity".

The gift of faith/belief unto salvation is implanted by God for the Christ says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Persons that hear the Word are persons of whom the Word (John 1:14) has opened the ears (Mark 7:32-35).

Do not be deceived, a person does not hear without the opening of the ears by God (Mark 7:32-35).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

All mature adults have a God given ability to extend faith/trust in someone or something, with even pagans putting the “faith” in objects of stone, wood and metal. A mature adult needs to direct this God given faith toward the creator of the universe to be saved, to humbly accept the free underserving gift of eternal life.

Kermos · Apr 11, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
First of all when Revelation was written there was no bible. That verse was pertaining to the book of revelation not to the entire bible but in any case you have no right to call me a liar. Your discrediting yourself by your unwarranted impolite harsh remarks. I??ve simply engaged in a polite discussion on the thread and your first reaction is to attack and insult me. I haven??t said anything to deserve such treatment. You might want to reevaluate your response here because from where I??m sitting it appears a bit dark to me brother.

Your ignoring a key factor here in Romans 2. First of all who did Paul say God??s patience and kindness was leading to salvation?

??Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance???
????Romans?? ??2:4?? ??NASB2020????

If your saying that these Romans have not received grace then your saying that God??s kindness is not actually leading them to repentance which Paul said that it is. No one is capable of repentance without grace. The only way God??s kindness can lead anyone to repentance is thru grace. So either His kindness is leading them to repentance thru His grace or His kindness is not leading them to repentance at all.

Early last year, God had me point out to you the relevance to Romans 2 of the first nature of man exposed and that nature is carnal without the intervention of the Living God in this chain of posts. Paul is contrasting carnal person against the born again person.

You are repeating false free-willian theology that has been proven false, and you are doing just what the original post indicates free-willians do.

Paul identified the carnal person with "your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath" (Romans 2:5); on the other hand, Paul identified the born again person with "the kindness of God leads you to repentance" (Romans 2:4).

The Romans 2 passage does NOT state man can choose Jesus, does NOT state that man causes man's own repentance, does NOT state that man causes man's belief to point at Jesus, does NOT state that man causes himself to be born again, and does NOT state that man has a free-will. There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

It appears that you switched the words "salvation" and "repentance" in Romans 2:4 when you wrote "was leading to salvation", and the point of this is that it appears that you try to escape the scriptural fact that God works/grants repentance in man (Matthew 11:25, Acts 11:18).

With respect to Revelation, I wrote "That has a LOT to do with lying about scripture" regarding Revelation 22:18-19); in other words, the passage indicates the severity of lying about scripture.

When you insert free will into Romans 2 where free-will does not exist, then you are adding to scripture. Adding to scripture is lying about scripture.

BNR32FAN · Apr 12, 2021

Kermos said:
Early last year, God had me point out to you the relevance to Romans 2 of the first nature of man exposed and that nature is carnal without the intervention of the Living God in this chain of posts. Paul is contrasting carnal person against the born again person.

I agree that Paul is contrasting carnal people against people who are born again but in this example BOTH have been given grace. God’s kindness and patience leading them to repentance is His grace. Only grace can lead someone to repent. Paul also specifically states the determining factor for their carnal behavior which is their stubbornness to repent. It’s by their own choice that they condemn themselves. That is clear in the message. So let’s break this down into one simple question, has God bestowed grace upon these people who are refusing to repent?

Kermos · Apr 16, 2021

bling said:
That is not a definition of ??free will??.

The ??choice?? to Love God comes way after God has showered the individual with: eternal life, Love, a wonderful purpose in life, the indwelling Holy Spirit and a new family.

We are talking about the God given ability of the selfish sinner to make some very limited autonomous free will choice, that will allow them to humbly accept undeserving Godly type Love.

You start off your post with your first paragraph by writing that a choice toward God is not the definition of free will.

Then, in your second paragraph, you write that free will is a choice toward God.

Your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) is so upside down and inside out you can't get free will stright!

There is no scripture that states man was given the ability to choose God.

There are lots of God given commands, sermons with requests, teachings and directions being given with some being accepted and followed and others not being directed and followed, these would appear to be choices.

Look at your Matt. 7:21-27 21 ??Not everyone who says to me, ??Lord, Lord,?? will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ??Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles??? 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ??I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!??

The doing or not doing is either up to the individual or it is up to God, but if the individual is not doing because God did not provide him with whatever the doer had, then it is God??s fault he/she did not do.

When you wrote "these would appear to be choices", then you are adding to scripture. Scripture does not state the person is to make the choice.

To set the record straight, with respect to Matthew 7:21-27, that is Matthew recording the words of Jesus.

The first condition of all men is enmity against God which is the carnal nature (1 Corinthians 15:47), and, based on your writing, I suspect that you think this is true.

People of the first condition cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14).

At God's choice, God regenerates men by the renewing by the Holy Spirit resulting in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17, Titus 3:5)

You wrote "then it is God's fault he/she did not do", but man in the first condition is guilty by default, so you inappropriately try to lay man's responsibility on God.

Jesus was specifically asked by people wanting to know what they personally were to be doing and Christ tells the to ??believe??. God does not have to ??believe?? anything since God knows. The context of John 6:29 is in no way talking about what God is to be doing.

Jesus, the Word of God, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Jesus attributes a whole package, a whole gift, which He refers to as "that you believe in Him whom He has sent".

So, "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" is a complete thing.

I mean that the "believe in Him whom He has sent" is locked inside of the "you".

This "locking" is "the work of God".

The whole pagkage is done, finished, and complete.

There is nothing more "to be done" by the "you" with the package in order to "believe in Him whom He has sent".

When Jesus answered the people's question, Jesus swept away that man manipulates belief/faith.

God causes man of God's choice to believe in Jesus whom God has sent (John 6:29).

By God's grace, this is why I acknowledge that all glory for man's salvation is God's, and God's alone! God is magnificent whether God save anyone or not, but by God's grace, God saves persons!

People use Eph 2:8 ??For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith??and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God?? to show ??faith?? is a gift and forget about verse 9 which says: ??not by works, so that no one can boast.?? The gift cannot be grammatical correct and be ??faith??, but you do not have to know Greek, just look at verse 9. If ??faith?? were the gift then Paul is telling us faith cannot be worked for and earned which is not logical or discussed as even an option anywhere else. How would people go about working to obtain faith anyway (it is to quit working, trying to do it yourself and start trusting). The ??gift?? in Eph. 2:8 is the whole salvation process which Paul talks about in other places, showing people trying to earn salvation.

I can look up genders and dust off my Greek New Testament, but here is what Barnes and Robertson have to say and they do an honest job as far as I can tell:

And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - ?? touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - ?? pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" ( ?? touto ) refers to "faith" ( ?? pistis ); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.

Robertson, on the topic of pronouns, wrote:

9. Gender and Number of outos. ... In general, like other adjectives, outos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive. ... In Eph. 2:8 , ..., there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, p.704)

Robertson, on the topic of particles, wrote:

(ii) Kai. ... The Mere Connective ('And') ... kai tauta (frequent in ancient Greek). See in particular Eph. 2:8 , kai touto ouk ex umon, where touto refers to the whole conception, not to chariti. (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 1181-1182)

Robertson, on the topic of prepositions, wrote:

(d) dia ... 3. 'Passing Between' or 'Through.' The idea of interval between leads naturally to that of passing between two objects or parts of objects. 'Through' is thus not the original meaning of dia, but is a very common one. ... The agent may also be expressed by dia. This function was also performed in the ancient Greek, through, when means or instrument was meant, the instrumental case was commonly employed. dia is thus used with inanimate and animate objects. Here, of course, the agent is conceived as coming in between the non-attainmnet and the attainment of the object in view. ... Abstract ideas are frequently so expressed, as sesosmenoi dia pisteos (Eph. 2:8 ), ... (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the New Testament, pp. 580-582)

"Gift" and "faith," are both nouns and would not need to agree. However, agreement in gender is necessary between a pronoun and its antecedent. The demonstrative pronoun will change its gender to match the previous noun (or other substantive) to which it refers.

This verse tells us that the antecedent for "This" is also the "gift of God." But the "gift" cannot be "faith" because there is no agreement in gender between "faith" and the demonstrative pronoun, "touto" (This).

You can look up lots of Greek scholars work and let me know if you find any one disagreeing with this, because I have not among scholars.

Please see this prior post for the proper exegesis of Ephesians 2:8-10 in this thread which clearly shows that (1) "Barnes and Robertson" inconsistently apply grammar to "grace" and "saved" and "faith" in the passage to to subtract meaning from the passage and (2) truly "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are not of man and truly "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are the gift of God according to the Holy Spirit!

Here is a list of word/number (prior, I supplied word/gender):

grace/singular
saved/plural
faith/singular
that/singular

Just like the words "grace" and "faith" and "that" are feminine, the words "grace" and "faith" and "that" are singular.

Wow, look at that, your "Barnes and Robertson" include "grace" even though it's "feminine", but your "Barnes and Robertson" remove "faith" even though it's "feminine".

Furthermore, your "Barnes and Robertson" include "grace" even though it's "singular", but your "Barnes and Robertson" remove "faith" even though it's "singular".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" disassociate the gender agreement between "grace" and "faith" and "that".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" disassociate the number agreement between "grace" and "faith" and "that".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" is wrong to eliminate "faith" as part of that which is not of man.

A "choice" toward God is a work; therefore, no man can successfully choose God.

I do agree ??natural faith?? which all mature adults have is a gift from God and, as we know from scripture: people do place natural faith in lots of things and people even worshipping rocks and wood.

The question that needs to be asked: can this God given natural faith be directed toward the Creator, just to believe in the possibility of God??s existence? Since it takes more faith and really foolishness to believe a god does not exist.

You also need to remember the Greek word translated ??Faith?? in the English is also translated faithfulness. I would say one of the gifts of the Spirit is faithfulness and not faith itself.

You also seem to be assuming that if the nonbelieving sinner has just some kind of ??faith??, he will make the noble, honorable, worthy, righteous and holy choice to follow God, but that type of ??faith?? comes much later and is part of the unbelievable wonderful gifts God showers on the sinner.

The ??faith/trust??, autonomous free will choice the sinner makes is between: being macho, hanging in there, being a good soldier, and being willing to take the punishment you fully deserve or wimping out, giving up and surrendering to your enemy. Like any soldier who surrenders to his enemy, you hate your enemy, but are just willing to humbly accept undeserving charity from your enemy. That little questionable ??trust?? in the possibility of your enemy having an unbelievable Love that could help you is all the faith you need.

Show me a scripture that states "people do place natural faith in lots of things", and it doesn't need to say "natural faith", just "faith" will do.

I'm not talking about "people even worshipping rocks and wood".

What do you consider to be man??s objective while here on earth, since the Bible has lots of ??commands?? to follow and any scripture given command has scriptural support for being ??man??s objective???

In man's first condition, man lives for himself.

For the converted man, man lives for God.

This ??New Heart?? comes after the sinner??s autonomous free will choice.

God and the Bible really define ??work?? and by specifically telling us: ??we cannot work on the Sabbath?? and providing what can be done on the Sabbath tells us what can be done on the Sabbath is not ??work??.

There is no scripture that states God endowed man with the ability of free will choice toward God.

When you wrote "This 'New Heart' comes after the sinner's autonomous free will choice", that is II Opinions 2:12, actually, that is your casting a your thoughts upon the Word of God, so that is adding to the Word of God.

Since people in the first condition cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14), it is impossible for such persons to understand God apart from an act of God (Matthew 19:25-26).

The New Heart is required to be right with God, so only the new creature created by God can be right with God (2 Corinthians 5:17).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

BNR32FAN · Apr 16, 2021

Kermos said:
You start off your post with your first paragraph by writing that a choice toward God is not the definition of free will.

Then, in your second paragraph, you write that free will is a choice toward God.

Your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) is so upside down and inside out you can't get free will stright!

There is no scripture that states man was given the ability to choose God.

When you wrote "these would appear to be choices", then you are adding to scripture. Scripture does not state the person is to make the choice.

To set the record straight, with respect to Matthew 7:21-27, that is Matthew recording the words of Jesus.

The first condition of all men is enmity against God which is the carnal nature (1 Corinthians 15:47), and, based on your writing, I suspect that you think this is true.

People of the first condition cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14).

At God's choice, God regenerates men by the renewing by the Holy Spirit resulting in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17, Titus 3:5)

You wrote "then it is God's fault he/she did not do", but man in the first condition is guilty by default, so you inappropriately try to lay man's responsibility on God.

Jesus, the Word of God, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Jesus attributes a whole package, a whole gift, which He refers to as "that you believe in Him whom He has sent".

So, "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" is a complete thing.

I mean that the "believe in Him whom He has sent" is locked inside of the "you".

This "locking" is "the work of God".

The whole pagkage is done, finished, and complete.

There is nothing more "to be done" by the "you" with the package in order to "believe in Him whom He has sent".

When Jesus answered the people's question, Jesus swept away that man manipulates belief/faith.

God causes man of God's choice to believe in Jesus whom God has sent (John 6:29).

By God's grace, this is why I acknowledge that all glory for man's salvation is God's, and God's alone! God is magnificent whether God save anyone or not, but by God's grace, God saves persons!

Please see this prior post for the proper exegesis of Ephesians 2:8-10 in this thread which clearly shows that (1) "Barnes and Robertson" inconsistently apply grammar to "grace" and "saved" and "faith" in the passage to to subtract meaning from the passage and (2) truly "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are not of man and truly "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are the gift of God according to the Holy Spirit!

Here is a list of word/number (prior, I supplied word/gender):

grace/singular

saved/plural

faith/singular

that/singular

Just like the words "grace" and "faith" and "that" are feminine, the words "grace" and "faith" and "that" are singular.

Wow, look at that, your "Barnes and Robertson" include "grace" even though it's "feminine", but your "Barnes and Robertson" remove "faith" even though it's "feminine".

Furthermore, your "Barnes and Robertson" include "grace" even though it's "singular", but your "Barnes and Robertson" remove "faith" even though it's "singular".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" disassociate the gender agreement between "grace" and "faith" and "that".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" disassociate the number agreement between "grace" and "faith" and "that".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" is wrong to eliminate "faith" as part of that which is not of man.

A "choice" toward God is a work; therefore, no man can successfully choose God.

Show me a scripture that states "people do place natural faith in lots of things", and it doesn't need to say "natural faith", just "faith" will do.

I'm not talking about "people even worshipping rocks and wood".

In man's first condition, man lives for himself.

For the converted man, man lives for God.

There is no scripture that states God endowed man with the ability of free will choice toward God.

When you wrote "This 'New Heart' comes after the sinner's autonomous free will choice", that is II Opinions 2:12, actually, that is your casting a your thoughts upon the Word of God, so that is adding to the Word of God.

Since people in the first condition cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14), it is impossible for such persons to understand God apart from an act of God (Matthew 19:25-26).

The New Heart is required to be right with God, so only the new creature created by God can be right with God (2 Corinthians 5:17).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Still wondering if your going to answer my question about Romans 2 or not. If God’s kindness and patience is leading someone to repentance does that mean that God has bestowed grace upon that person?

bling · Apr 16, 2021

Kermos said:
You start off your post with your first paragraph by writing that a choice toward God is not the definition of free will.

Then, in your second paragraph, you write that free will is a choice toward God.

Your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) is so upside down and inside out you can't get free will stright!

There is no scripture that states man was given the ability to choose God.

There is no scripture which says man does not have some free will.

Kermos said:
When you wrote "these would appear to be choices", then you are adding to scripture. Scripture does not state the person is to make the choice.

To set the record straight, with respect to Matthew 7:21-27, that is Matthew recording the words of Jesus.

The first condition of all men is enmity against God which is the carnal nature (1 Corinthians 15:47), and, based on your writing, I suspect that you think this is true.

People of the first condition cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14).

At God's choice, God regenerates men by the renewing by the Holy Spirit resulting in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17, Titus 3:5)

You wrote "then it is God's fault he/she did not do", but man in the first condition is guilty by default, so you inappropriately try to lay man's responsibility on God.

If God is the one giving some sinners the ability to obey and other sinners, no different from those given ability, God chooses not to gift with this ability, so they are not able to obey, then God is responsible and not the individual. God’s free will actions would be the deciding factor and not the individual.

God very much does the regenerating, but the sinner makes the free will selfish choice to humbly accept undeserved charity as charity or not accept it from his hated enemy God.

Kermos said:
Jesus, the Word of God, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Jesus attributes a whole package, a whole gift, which He refers to as "that you believe in Him whom He has sent".

So, "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" is a complete thing.

I mean that the "believe in Him whom He has sent" is locked inside of the "you".

This "locking" is "the work of God".

The whole pagkage is done, finished, and complete.

There is nothing more "to be done" by the "you" with the package in order to "believe in Him whom He has sent".

When Jesus answered the people's question, Jesus swept away that man manipulates belief/faith.

God causes man of God's choice to believe in Jesus whom God has sent (John 6:29).

By God's grace, this is why I acknowledge that all glory for man's salvation is God's, and God's alone! God is magnificent whether God save anyone or not, but by God's grace, God saves persons!

All glory goes to God because He is solely responsible for saving man, but man can still have the responsibility and choice to refuse or accept God’s salvation, for sinful/carnal/selfish reasons.

The “work” is something man does which is “believe” or trust in God (with God being Love), enough to hope some undeserving good might come from it.

The “work of God” is not “causing man of God's choice to believe in Jesus whom God has sent”, Jesus is talking to a bunch of people wanting Jesus to keep on feeding them to their fill, what work they can be doing and not getting all philosophical about God doing something. They really can’t “do” anything, but they can believe/trust.

Kermos said:
Please see this prior post for the proper exegesis of Ephesians 2:8-10 in this thread which clearly shows that (1) "Barnes and Robertson" inconsistently apply grammar to "grace" and "saved" and "faith" in the passage to to subtract meaning from the passage and (2) truly "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are not of man and truly "grace" and "saved" and "faith" are the gift of God according to the Holy Spirit!

Here is a list of word/number (prior, I supplied word/gender):

grace/singular

saved/plural

faith/singular

that/singular

Just like the words "grace" and "faith" and "that" are feminine, the words "grace" and "faith" and "that" are singular.

Wow, look at that, your "Barnes and Robertson" include "grace" even though it's "feminine", but your "Barnes and Robertson" remove "faith" even though it's "feminine".

Furthermore, your "Barnes and Robertson" include "grace" even though it's "singular", but your "Barnes and Robertson" remove "faith" even though it's "singular".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" disassociate the gender agreement between "grace" and "faith" and "that".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" disassociate the number agreement between "grace" and "faith" and "that".

Your "Barnes and Robertson" is wrong to eliminate "faith" as part of that which is not of man.

A "choice" toward God is a work; therefore, no man can successfully choose God.

You need to reread what “Barnes and Robertson” wrote. It is not a singular or plural issue. "that" - touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - pistis - is in the feminine. In the sentence so “touto” cannot be referring to just "faith" - pistis.

Can you understand these two sentences?

That or this (touto) has to refer back to some neuter word or phrase. The “phrase” appears to be “the idea of salvation in the clause before”, “salvation by faith”.

Kermos said:
Show me a scripture that states "people do place natural faith in lots of things", and it doesn't need to say "natural faith", just "faith" will do.

The word for “putting your faith in” is often translated “Trust”. We are to “trust” God, but we can “trust” other things.

Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God.

Psalm 24:4 The one who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not trust in an idol or swear by a false god.

Psalm 49: 6 those who trust in their wealth and boast of their great riches?

Psalm 49:13 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of their followers, who approve their sayings.

Psalm 52:7 “Here now is the man who did not make God his stronghold but trusted in his great wealth and grew strong by destroying others!”

Psalm 62:10 Do not trust in extortion or put vain hope in stolen goods; though your riches increase, do not set your heart on them.

Psalms 115: 8 Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them.

Psalm 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.

Isaiah 2:22 Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils. Why hold them in esteem?

There are lots more, but this is an example.

Kermos said:
In man's first condition, man lives for himself.

For the converted man, man lives for God.

Are you telling me God makes some men to live for Him which is God’s objective for some men fulfilled by God and not by man?

Do we all start out “living for self”?

Kermos said:
There is no scripture that states God endowed man with the ability of free will choice toward God.

When you wrote "This 'New Heart' comes after the sinner's autonomous free will choice", that is II Opinions 2:12, actually, that is your casting a your thoughts upon the Word of God, so that is adding to the Word of God.

Since people in the first condition cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14), it is impossible for such persons to understand God apart from an act of God (Matthew 19:25-26).

The New Heart is required to be right with God, so only the new creature created by God can be right with God (2 Corinthians 5:17).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

I have gone through man’s role above, so I will not go through that again.

You are taking verses out of context, first you take (John 15:19) where Jesus is specifically talking to the 12 and find a verse two chapter later where Jesus talking about all believers and say in John 17:20 Jesus is referring to all believers in John 15:19, two chapters earlier. Look at what Jesus says: "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20) The reason Jesus does not want us to think He is just talking to the 12 in the following verses after John 17:20, is because that is whom He was addressing previously and now is expanding His pray and prophecies concerning all believers.

Kermos · Apr 18, 2021

bling said:
snip...
Jesus chose the 12, you are the one adding: ??including salvation??, since that is not in those verses.
...snip...
You provide the answer with: ??those also who believe in Me through their word??, salvation comes to those other than the 12 through the ??words?? of the 12, by the individuals believing as a result of the words and not through some other means.

When Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), that is Jesus declaring that He brought the 11 Apostles to salvation. There were not 12 Apostles present because Judas had left.

The world is being held over for destruction for Peter the Apostle wrote "by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7).

This means that the Word extracted the 11 Apostles from the world with it's destruction; therefore, this means being saved from the wrath of God.

Now, you, on the other hand, you think you are superior to the apostles because you think that you can choose Jesus for salvation. Lord Jesus says that choosing Jesus cannot be done for He says says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Not only do you claim to be superior to the apostles, but in your last sentence, you also attempt to erase the fact that God had me mention Lord Jesus' words of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) which demonstrates that a person believing in Jesus whom God has sent is the work of God, not man, but righteous belief is the work of God.

You claim to control your belief; therefore, you reject Lord Jesus' words.

P.S. This is a continuation to this post.

bling · Apr 19, 2021

Kermos said:
When Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), that is Jesus declaring that He brought the 11 Apostles to salvation. There were not 12 Apostles present because Judas had left.

Luke 6: 13 When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: 14 Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, 15 Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6: 70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

Jesus has said before including Judas that He chose them and there is no mention of salvation. You are adding the idea of His choosing to save these 11. Judas was “chosen” out of the world also, since the world is the set of all people at that time.

Kermos said:
The world is being held over for destruction for Peter the Apostle wrote "by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7).

This means that the Word extracted the 11 Apostles from the world with it's destruction; therefore, this means being saved from the wrath of God.

Again you are piecing together Words Peter uses to describe one thing with words Jesus used in a different place to describe something else.

Kermos said:
Now, you, on the other hand, you think you are superior to the apostles because you think that you can choose Jesus for salvation. Lord Jesus says that choosing Jesus cannot be done for He says says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

John 6: 60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” and 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

Jesus asked for their answer, so they had a choice also. We all have a choice to make.

Kermos said:
Not only do you claim to be superior to the apostles, but in your last sentence, you also attempt to erase the fact that God had me mention Lord Jesus' words of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) which demonstrates that a person believing in Jesus whom God has sent is the work of God, not man, but righteous belief is the work of God.

You claim to control your belief; therefore, you reject Lord Jesus' words.

The “work” is the “work” = believe which is what people can do spiritually and that is the “work” god has assigned to people to do. And not the work God does. In the context the people are asking about the work they can do and not what God does.

Observations About Free-willian Bible Interpretation And Free-willian Writings

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

He’s a Way of life

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God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

He’s a Way of life

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God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

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God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

He’s a Way of life

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

He’s a Way of life

Regular Member

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

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