The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Ceallaigh

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Since this statement is the foundation of your OP, I have asked you to justify it from scripture. If you are unable to do so, the very premise of your entire "wake up call" is flawed and serves only to gender strife(2 Timothy 2:23-24) because precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little(Isaiah 28:10).



Some people believe they can determine God's plan through careful study of scripture, but this only causes division and strife.(2 Timothy 2:23-26, 2 Timothy 3:1-9, Romans 10:2-3) The purpose of the Bible is to lead you to the knowledge of God(the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ) because God desires mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.(Hosea 6:6, Matthew 12:7, Matthew 9:13)

Below is a short list of scriptures(by no means exhaustive) which relate the purpose of scripture and the purpose of most of God's actions recorded in scripture(that ye may know and believe me, know that I am the Lord).
Exodus 6:7, Exodus 7:5, Exodus 7:17, Exodus 8:22, Exodus 10:2, Exodus 14:4, Exodus 14:18, Exodus 16:12, Exodus 29:46, Exodus 31:13, Deuteronomy 29:6, 1 Kings 20:13, 1 Kings 20:28, Isaiah 49:23, Isaiah 60:16, Ezekiel 6:7, Ezekiel 6:10, Ezekiel 6:13, Ezekiel 6:14, Ezekiel 7:4, Ezekiel 7:9, Ezekiel 7:27, Ezekiel 11:10, Ezekiel 11:12, Ezekiel 12:15, Ezekiel 12:16, Ezekiel 12:20, Ezekiel 13:9, Ezekiel 13:14, Ezekiel 13:21, Ezekiel 13:23, Ezekiel 14:8, Ezekiel 15:7, Ezekiel 16:62, Ezekiel 20:12, Ezekiel 20:20, Ezekiel 20:26, Ezekiel 20:38, Ezekiel 20:42, Ezekiel 20:44, Ezekiel 22:16, Ezekiel 23:49, Ezekiel 24:24, Ezekiel 24:27, Ezekiel 25:5, Ezekiel 25:7, Ezekiel 25:11, Ezekiel 25:17, Ezekiel 26:6, Ezekiel 28:22, Ezekiel 28:23, Ezekiel 28:24, Ezekiel 28:26, Ezekiel 29:6, Ezekiel 29:9, Ezekiel 29:16, Ezekiel 29:21, Ezekiel 30:8, Ezekiel 30:19, Ezekiel 30:25, Ezekiel 30:26, Ezekiel 32:15, Ezekiel 33:29, Ezekiel 34:27, Ezekiel 34:30, Ezekiel 35:4, Ezekiel 35:9, Ezekiel 35:12, Ezekiel 35:15, Ezekiel 36:11, Ezekiel 36:23, Ezekiel 36:38, Ezekiel 37:6, Ezekiel 37:13, Ezekiel 38:23, Ezekiel 39:6, Ezekiel 39:7, Ezekiel 39:22, Ezekiel 39:28, Joel 2:27, Joel 3:17, Ephesians 4:13, Ephesians 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:6, 2 Corinthians 2:14, Colossians 1:10, 2 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:3, etc.

If you believe the purpose of the Bible is to reveal God's plan for the redemption of humankind, please share some scriptures that express that intent. Your unwillingness to defend the foundational premise of the doctrine you teach only further displays your error.

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

2 Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

I doubt many would apply that admonishment to their own beliefs, interpretations, doctrines and theologies. But are quite ready to apply it to others.
 
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NomNomPizza

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Postmillenialism is in regard to chapter 20. What I'm talking about is what's written before that regarding the mark of the beast and flying scorpions etc. Many think the Beast was Nero and I'm sure there's quite a few takes on the flying scorpions.
not it wasn't . end times supposed to happen when Roman Empire is ruled by 10 kings which never happened before , 3 of which are conquered
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Thanks. That is a very kind thing to say about me. And yes, I am very hopeful about the future of humankind. Those God created in his own image, his own likeness.

Simply put, a good father doesn't put his kids in the oven to discipline them. Those who subscribe to eternal conscious torment have to paint humanity as an ugly worthless lot that do not even deserve to be rescued. They can barely imagine why God would save anyone. Such a sad way to view humankind. It colors the way they look at others as well. Why be nice to someone for whom God's wrath and punishment awaits? (already deemed worthless in their eyes)

To accept the possibility of UR puts a refreshing view on life. I can see someone and know that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess (willingly and joyfully) that Jesus Christ is Lord. What a day of victory that will be when God heals the nations. From every tribe and tongue. Ultimate Redemption.

Have a great day buddy. Thanks for your wonderfully optimistic post. A breath of fresh air after breathing the sulfurous smoke (from hell) that hangs over this thread. (cough)

On, no problem. In way similar to what I've expereinced, I'm sure you're buffeted enough in your own church for your particular views just as I am over my own views by a number of fellow Christians. You don't need one more critic slamming you, and frankly, despite what some people think, I really don't come onto CF to get into entanglements with fellow Christians, especially not to disparage others over some aspects of the bible that are hard (for me anyway) to understand.

So, be blessed. And thanks for getting us to think more deeply, Steve.
 
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Clare73

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The Bible actually reveals neither for neither is the plan of God.
God never said he would redeem humankind, he said he would redeem those who believed, and this faith existed even in the days of The Law because it was
to those who were under The Law that he said, "The just shall live by faith."
Clare73 said:
This faith existed long before the Law, it goes all the way back to Abraham. For the faith they lived by, rather than living by law keeping which only curses all who rely on it (Galatians 3:10), was faith in the Promise (Jesus Christ, Genesis 15:5).
Those who cry "faith alone", debunking the Old Testament actually quote it when they say, "The just shall live by faith."
Clare73 said:
You do realize that is Paul you are talking about, right?
Ro 1:17 - ". . .'The righteous will live by faith.' "

Gal 3:11 - "No one is justified before God by the law, because 'The righteous will life by faith.' "

Heb 10:38 - "But my righteous one will live by faith."
1. Paul never debunked The Law and the Old Testament so, no I am not talking about Paul.
Using Paul's words can't be called debunking.
In fact, if you are conversant with Paul's teaching you would know that He quoted The Law to support things he said. 1 Corinthians 9:9 and 1 Timothy 5:18 are examples.
They are examples of Paul using the law metaphorically as illustration of a principle,
they are not examples of Paul using that law as authoritative in the NT.
2. I did not intimate, as far as I am aware, that The Law saved anybody except to say that, these who debunk anything in the Old Testament
If by "debunking" you mean the laws regarding sacrifices, foods, clothing, houses, garments, childbirth, marital sex, menstruation, feasts, etc. . . those laws are abolished (Ephesians 2:15).
Paul did not rely on The Law for his salvation but he knew that God spake by it and therefore it was good.
IT's not about good, or not good--that is a strawman. . .it's about applicable, or not applicable in the NT. And only the Decalogue is applicable in the NT.
 
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Clare73

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Why?
Because we are all just worthless scum to God? The day he created us,
he found his creation to be good.
And as Paul Harvey would say: The rest of the story--the heart of God:

"The LORD saw how great man's wickedness had become, and that every inclination of the thought of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." (Genesis 6:5-7)

Your God is too human. . .your God is too small.
 
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Clare73

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Yes. And I believe God loves a good story. The Bible is full of them. Why would the story of humankind be any different?
And you know God's predilections, how?

So it's all just a story book. . .wonder how the NT writers missed that.

God is such a good chum!
 
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Clare73

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Personally, I really don't know for sure. Wasn't the world already condemned?
Indeed, it was (Romans 5:18).
He came to save those, who would believe in his person and work for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice, from that condemnation.

The rest are left in it.
 
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sawdust

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You don't seem to understand that it's not about thinking of oneself. It's about thinking of mankind whom we're commanded to love equally to our love of God. Why would you equate love and concern for others with being self centered?

Born again Christians who contemplate the concept of universal reconciliation, aren't thinking about themselves, because they're already reconciled. They are thinking about others. And they're also thinking about their Lord and how certain doctrines might be representing him.

I see, so you think of others first and then you think of the Lord. How noble of you. I'm sure the Lord is very grateful you give Him a second thought. ;) lol
 
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Saint Steven

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I can understand your position on this Steve, and I think it comes partly because you have a big heart for people. I wish there were more who cared about others at the level that you do.

I, too, recognize that the New Testament writers share with us Jesus' amazing love, but I will admit that I get thrown by all of the verses that seem (to me) to imply that there are strings attached and caveats to any universal application of God's amazing love. But.....it would be grand if my present understanding is simply incorrect and everyone is transformed for Eternal Life in Christ at some point in the future.
After I went to work today I realized that I had not really addressed your question(s). This may require more than one post. But we can start here.

One of the biggest problems we face in defending UR using the Bible, is that the Bible is a Damnationist biased text. When the translation work was done, obviously those who worked on the project were reading the originals through their own doctrinal lens, so to speak.

The citation below shows that Universalism was actually a leading doctrine in the theology schools of the early church. However, it was the western/Latin church that assembled the NT canon, not the eastern orthodox church. Therefore the book has a bias. They cooked the books! - lol

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
 
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Saint Steven

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I see, so you think of others first and then you think of the Lord. How noble of you. I'm sure the Lord is very grateful you give Him a second thought. ;) lol
Hey. That was uncalled for.
 
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sawdust

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Did Jesus die to save us from God?

huh? What are you on about? Who is the prime player in salvation? Men or Christ? And who is Christ? The Word made flesh. It is not a coincidence that Christ is called the Word and that scripture is called the word of God.

The Bible is not about men and their salvation it is about God for even before our creation, a certain angel considered he would make a better god and was so convincing, a third of his brethren agreed.

The scriptures are like .."will the real Lord of the Hosts please stand up?" ... and He does, magnificently.

When we read the scriptures two basic things happen, we see the Lord or we are exposed and see into ourselves even the dark places (or maybe I should say especially the dark places). Why is this? Because on both counts the scriptures are the Light of God in written form.
 
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sawdust

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Why?
Because we are all just worthless scum to God? The day he created us, he found his creation to be good. (and then he created woman - lol) Sorry, it was such a good setup.

MMXX said:
Scripture is about God's relationship with humankind. To the point where God became humankind.

No, that's most likely just your ego getting offended by your own assumptions. The reality is men are arrogant by nature. We naturally seek self-preservation. It's why the scriptures tell us we must humble ourselves.
 
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sawdust

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Not here to share our life?
Know as a friend of sinners. Accused of being a glutton and drunkard due to his choice of friends. Called Zacheus (a traitor tax collector) out of a tree to have lunch at his house. Not here to share our life? A man of sorrows, acquanted with grief. Not here to share our life?

Honestly are you even stopping to think about what I'm saying or are just giving knee jerk reactions because you don't like what I'm saying?

Christ had human life before we were even created. So you tell me? Who is sharing with who?
 
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Saint Steven

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The Bible is not about men and their salvation it is about God for even before our creation, a certain angel considered he would make a better god and was so convincing, a third of his brethren agreed.
Are you calling me a devil?
 
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Saint Steven

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So, be blessed. And thanks for getting us to think more deeply, Steve.
Here's a great unbiased video on the subject, if you haven't already seen it. Even this guy is undecided. So don't feel bad if you haven't decided one way or the other.

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg
 
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Ceallaigh

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not it wasn't . end times supposed to happen when Roman Empire is ruled by 10 kings which never happened before , 3 of which are conquered

I just know that's what some Christians believe. Personally I'm not all that much into eschatology.
 
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