Christ gave his life as a ransom

bling

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You could use a good dictionary
The definition of a principle is a basic truth or the source or origin of something or someone. An example of principle is a list of values set by a group of people. ... A fundamental truth, law, doctrine, or motivating force, upon which others are based.

I am saying there is no cosmic principle out there which God must follow. God establishes by His power and authority all principles. God is not following some Law or justice system, but created the Laws and Justice System. We are to be obedient to God and not some Law, since the "law" itself might change. Christ was above the "Laws" and thus was "Lord" of the Sabbath, not needing to follow some human interpretation of the Law.
We offend God by disobey His Laws, while the Law itself cannot be offended.
 
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bling

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To have written the Septuagint, scribes and rabbis need to speak greek as well as hebrew/aramaic.
We are not sure who translated and wrote the Septuagint. The Jewish scholars might not feel it would be right to even try to translate the Hebrew word of God (which they seemed to have almost made into an idol, like Muslim Scholars today say the Quan cannot be translated).


It is commendable you do so. Friendspeak is based on Church of Christ?
Did not know that. The books they provided were very weak and I do not use them but form my owe questions and read the complete letters. I also try to have someone else with me training.
 
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Chi.C

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We are not sure who translated and wrote the Septuagint. The Jewish scholars might not feel it would be right to even try to translate the Hebrew word of God (which they seemed to have almost made into an idol, like Muslim Scholars today say the Quan cannot be translated).

Did not know that. The books they provided were very weak and I do not use them but form my owe questions and read the complete letters. I also try to have someone else with me training.
Got to read up on the Septuagint, see what is what.
Anyhow, good conversation. Good luck on your endeavours.
 
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Clare73

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The definition of a principle is a basic truth or the source or origin of something or someone. An example of principle is a list of values set by a group of people. ... A fundamental truth, law, doctrine, or motivating force, upon which others are based.

I am saying there is no cosmic principle out there which God must follow. God establishes by His power and authority all principles. God is not following some Law or justice system, but created the Laws and Justice System.
Precisely. . .God is justice. . .God is righteousness (law). . .God is truth. . .God is love. . .
and God('s justice) requires that all be given their due, the righteous (in Jesus Christ), as well as the unrighteous (rejecters of Jesus Christ).

It's not complicated.
 
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bling

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Precisely. . .God is justice. . .God is righteousness (law). . .God is truth. . .God is love. . .
and God('s justice) requires that all be given their due, the righteous (in Jesus Christ), as well as the unrighteous (rejecters of Jesus Christ).

It's not complicated.
God can and has forgiven them, which falls under God's justice, Love, righteousness, fairness and Holiness, but they have to humbly accept that forgiveness as pure undeserved charity to complete the transaction.
 
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Clare73

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God can and has forgiven them, which falls under God's justice, Love, righteousness, fairness and Holiness, but they have to humbly accept that forgiveness as pure undeserved charity to complete the transaction.
Not according to Jesus. . .they must "believe in the name of God's one and only Son" or they remain "condemned" (John 3:18) and under the wrath of God (John 3:36).
 
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bling

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Not according to Jesus. . .they must "believe in the name of God's one and only Son" or they remain "condemned" (John 3:18) and under the wrath of God (John 3:36).
According to Matt. 18: 21-35, God can forgive and forgiveness not take place, the person recieving the forgiveness must accpet it as pure undeserved charity. So, yes those God has forgiven can still be condemned.
 
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Clare73

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According to Matt. 18: 21-35, God can forgive and forgiveness not take place, the person recieving the forgiveness must accpet it as pure undeserved charity. So, yes those God has forgiven can still be condemned.
Or, is it a parable illustrating the Lord's prayer of conditional forgiveness:

"Forgive us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors." (Matthew 6:12)
 
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bling

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Or, is it a parable illustrating the Lord's prayer of conditional forgiveness:

"Forgive us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors." (Matthew 6:12)
So are you saying the Lord can forgive and forgiveness not take place? (Is God's gifts not gifts?)
You are trying to use Matthew 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
, but that is not saying the Lord will take back His forgiving, which seems to be what happened in Matt.18.
Mark 11:25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”
It sound contigent but again not taking forgiveness back.
Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.
We cannot Love with Godly type love unless God first Loves us and that Love comes by God first forgiving us of an unbelievable huge debt "he that is forgiven much Loves much" (an unbelievable huge Love = Godly type Love).
God does not take His gifts back (and we cannot take our gifts back). Forgiveness is a transaction so if the transaction is not completed by the reciever then forgiveness did not take place.
 
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zoidar

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Or, is it a parable illustrating the Lord's prayer of conditional forgiveness:

"Forgive us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors." (Matthew 6:12)

According to Matt. 18: 21-35, God can forgive and forgiveness not take place, the person recieving the forgiveness must accpet it as pure undeserved charity. So, yes those God has forgiven can still be condemned.

An interesting thing is that Jesus prayed for those that crucified him. Jesus forgave them ...

When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.
— Luke 23:33-34
 
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Clare73

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According to Matt. 18: 21-35, God can forgive and forgiveness not take place, the person recieving the forgiveness must accpet it as pure undeserved charity. So, yes those God has forgiven can still be condemned.
God's forgiveness comes through faith, acceptance has nothing to do with it.
(Is God's gifts not gifts?)
You are trying to use Matthew 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
, but that is not saying the Lord will take back His forgiving,
which seems to be what happened in Matt.18.
The principle has already laid down in Matthew 13:12:
'Whoever has will be given more. . .Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away."

The parable of Matthew 18:21-35 makes pretty clear that what he had (mercy) was taken away
(he only seemed to have it) because he himself did not have mercy.

It has nothing to do with accepting anything.
 
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zoidar

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The principle has already laid down in Matthew 13:12:
'Whoever has will be given more. . .Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away."

The parable of Matthew 18:21-35 makes pretty clear that what he had (mercy) was taken away
(he only seemed to have it) because he himself did not have mercy.

It has nothing to do with accepting anything.

Actually the dept was reinstalled. He was no longer forgiven.
 
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Clare73

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An interesting thing is that Jesus prayed for those that crucified him. Jesus forgave them ...

When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.
— Luke 23:33-34
That was the Roman soldiers he prayed for, who were not his enemies, and truly did not know what they were doing.

He did not pray for the Jewish religious leaders who got Pilate to crucify him, who did know what they were doing.
 
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bling

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An interesting thing is that Jesus prayed for those that crucified him. Jesus forgave them ...

When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.
— Luke 23:33-34
Very good, then Peter gets up on Pentecost and says: (They are guilty) of crucifying the Messiah. Jesus asked God to forgive them and knowing some of the relationship Jesus has with God, I am assured God did His part in forgiving them, but Peter says they are still guilty, so what happened?
Forgiveness is a transaction and not just one sided, so yes God forgave them, but forgiveness does not take until they humbly accept that being forgiven as pure undeserved charity.
 
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bling

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Yes, what he had--forgiveness of the debt, was taken away.
If you forgive someone and that person humbly accepts that forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, can you later take the forgiveness back?
Are you referrencing any other scripture in support of that concept, since I use Luke 23:33-34 with Acts 2 :36 to support forgiveness being a transaction needing both parties to play a part.?
You are making God out to be like what we use to call "an indian giver", which makes any and all free undeserving gifts subject to our future behavior and being taken back by God, so is that what you believe?
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
God's forgiveness comes through faith, acceptance has nothing to do with it.
The principle was already laid down in Matthew 13:12:
'Whoever has will be given more. . .Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away."
The parable of Matthew 18:21-35 illustrates the principle, making it pretty clear that what he had (mercy) was taken away
(he only seemed to have it) because he himself did not have mercy.

It has nothing to do with accepting anything.
If you forgive someone and that person humbly accepts that forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, can you later take the forgiveness back?
Are you referrencing any other scripture in support of that concept,
The ones I've presented aren't true? You want me to present others that you think are true?

Your issue isn't with me, it's with Jesus in Mt 13 & 18.

Take it up with him.
 
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bling

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The ones I've presented aren't true? You want me to present others that you think are true?

Your issue isn't with me, it's with Jesus in Mt 13 & 18.

Take it up with him.
I am in complete agreement with what Jesus said.

You do bring up a good verse with:
'Whoever has will be given more. . .Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away."
This in the context of the parable about the tallents, is not referring to a "charitable gift" given by the Master to his sevents, but his mony they are responsible for caring for. They are to grow His money. Those who do well with the responsibility they have been given will get more responsibility, but those who do nothing with the responsibilities they have been given will have what they have been resposibile for taken away. The Master is not forgiving his servants of something and taking the forgiveness back and this is not a free undeserved charitable gift being taken back.
 
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zoidar

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If you forgive someone and that person humbly accepts that forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, can you later take the forgiveness back?

I think you can. If you are letting your neighbour use your car and he wrecks it into a tree and then comes to you being honestly sorry about reckless driving. You forgive him and let him use your other car. Then you find out he is also driving recklessly with your second car, you then take the car back and your neighbour will be without a car. He is no longer forgiven his recklessness.
 
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