The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

2PhiloVoid

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Spirits can’t be destroyed.

Angels are spirit beings that can’t be annihilated anymore than God, who is an eternal spirit, can be destroyed.

And humans were made in God’s image, and since at creation God had no physical body, when He made us in His image, that cant mean physical bodies - instead, we are made eternal spirits, in His image, and live in a temporal home called our body.

Thus annihilationism is impossible, because our bodies can be destroyed, but not our spirit - and this is why damned angels and humans will spend eternity apart from God, and not be destroyed and cease to exist.

And where in the bible do you get this bit of theology? It sounds to me like you're drawing from ancient Greek Philosophy and then imputing it to the Scriptures. In essence, I think the idea that human beings have some kind of indestructible spirit is a bit Greek rather than Jewish in nature, theologically speaking, and not something we should be easily assuming.
 
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Jake Arsenal

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Last time I checked, every argument rests on a presupposition. You have yours and I have mine.
You stated yours twice in the OP, and I have asked you to provide scriptural evidence for it.

The topic is about how a person's view of the final judgment defines their view of what the Bible is about. Or more importantly, the way it DOESN'T align with what they claim the Bible is about.

In response #57, I provided around 100 scriptures which I believe show that the Bible is about knowing who God is(know that I am the Lord). In response #59 You ignored that evidence and asked
Did you really write that? (seems so)

What is the Bible?
What is the purpose of the Bible?
Why are these questions taboo?

You said, "a person's view of the final judgement defines their view of what the Bible is about." Since this statement is the foundation of your OP, I have asked you to justify it from scripture. If you are unable to do so, the very premise of your entire "wake up call" is flawed and serves only to gender strife(2 Timothy 2:23-24) because precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little(Isaiah 28:10).
 
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Mr. M

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An eye for an eye; a tooth for a tooth?
BTW, eye for an eye simply means "let punishment befit the crime", a principle that is occasionally
adhered to in most societies, in particular ones that have been influenced my Mosaic Law.
 
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Clare73

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I don't know what I'm supposed to be honing in on in post #9 precisely, but if Pavel is explaining why Universal Reconciliation isn't reflective of Biblical Theology, then
I have some appreciation of what he has written.

Is there some other point in post #9 that you thought Pavel was implying? If so,
you may have to bring it to my attention more specfically.
No, you answered what I was asking. . .you appreciate it, but are not turned.

Thanks.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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No, you answered what I was asking. . .you appreciate it, but are not turned.

Thanks.

Yeah, I've never been an advocate of Universal Reconciliation, even if it does sound like a nice idea.
 
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renniks

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The ultimate statement of biblical context. Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. What's yours?

Does the Bible reveal God's plan for the redemption of humankind, or is it a plan for the genocide/incineration of humanity? Depends on who you ask, I suppose.

Many may agree that the Bible reveals God's plan for the redemption of humankind, but then also claim that the vast majority of humanity will be consigned to eternal conscious torment, or incineration. (the genocide of humanity) Which is obviously not the redemption of humankind. Not even close.

Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. This is the ultimate statement of biblical context. The thrust of the entire book. What's yours?
1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
I'll take #4. The plan to redeem whosever will.
Offered for all, but only applicable to those who accept the offer.
 
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aiki

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How is that a strawman? Isn't that basically what you told us? God can do whatever he wants, there's no way we can stop him. How is that not the same as a playground bully?

When has a playground bully created all those with whom he deals (and the universe within which they all live, too), sustaining them moment-by-moment, their existence entirely contingent upon himself? Again, you make a category error in your comparison. This frequently occurs when Strawman arguing goes on.

What about the countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus? They aren't victims? You call them guilty? You call this justice?

They aren't guilty because they've never heard the Gospel but because they have all sinned against their God-given conscience (Romans 3:23), the "law of God written on their hearts," and have "suppressed the truth in unrighteousness," as Paul explained:

Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Any who, seeing the glory of God in Creation (Psalms 19:1) and in their own conscience, pursue a knowledge of God will, God has promised, come to a saving knowledge of Himself. (James 4:8) As Jesus said, your "countless billions" choose the Broad Way; they aren't forced to it by a lack of options or ignorance. (Matthew 7:13-14)

A way to avoid it? Why create it in the first place if it is to be avoided at all cost?

Because God's holiness, justice and love demand it.

If what you are claiming about God is true, no human in history has created such a diabolical horror as what you claim God is up to.

This is an emotional response and as such overblows and misstates the facts of the matter, stepping into Strawman arguing as a result.

Just as in human courts of justice, God's punishment fits the crime. Deserving eternal hell, our sin must be far, far, far worse than we, as creatures entirely comfortable in sin, are willing to think that it is. But that's a fault on our end, not God's.

If anything is diabolical, it is thinking one can sin against God Almighty, spurning His grace, trampling on the atoning work of His Son, and yet somehow deserve entrance into God's holy kingdom.
 
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Clare73

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Mark 9:48 doesn't say anything about pain, why are you making stuff up?
C'mon, guy. . .you can do better than that, I've seen your brain at work. Stop futzing around.

Does "agony" qualify (Luke 16:24, NIV)?
As far as the fire goes, in next verse (Mark 9:49) Jesus says "Everyone will be salted with fire." Does that mean everyone is going to be in pain?
Yep. . .the fire of refining, in dealing radically with their sin (cut it off, pluck it out) to avoid the unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43-49).
Then again pain isn't always as bad thing. As they say no pain, no gain.
Too late for gain in the unquenchable fire.
 
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Clare73

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Clare73

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So, Jesus died to save us from God?
Precisely. . .have you not read the NT?

". . .whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)

"Since we have been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him?" (Romans 5:9)

"--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." (1 Thessalonians 1:10)

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

". . .for because of such things God's wrath comes on the disobedient." (Ephesians 5:6)

"Because of these the wrath of God is coming." (Colossians 3:6)
 
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lsume

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The ultimate statement of biblical context. Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. What's yours?

Does the Bible reveal God's plan for the redemption of humankind, or is it a plan for the genocide/incineration of humanity? Depends on who you ask, I suppose.

Many may agree that the Bible reveals God's plan for the redemption of humankind, but then also claim that the vast majority of humanity will be consigned to eternal conscious torment, or incineration. (the genocide of humanity) Which is obviously not the redemption of humankind. Not even close.

Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. This is the ultimate statement of biblical context. The thrust of the entire book. What's yours?
1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
I believe that the judgement that you want to go through happens in this life. However, you must be born again. Consider “the judgement must first begin at the house of God”. Also, when did God ever dwell in houses made my human hands?
 
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Clare73

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The Bible actually reveals neither for neither is the plan of God.
God never said he would redeem humankind, he said he would redeem those who believed, and this faith existed even in the days of The Law because it was
to those who were under The Law that he said, "The just shall live by faith."

Those who cry "faith alone", debunking the Old Testament actually quote it when they say, "The just shall live by faith."
You do realize that is Paul you are talking about, right? (Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11;
Hebrews 10:38)
Therefore, by their own definition, it can be said that they live by The Law and are saved by it.
The faith that saved was not faith in the Law, in the OT it was faith in the Promise (Jesus Christ, Genesis 15:5), and in the NT it is faith in Jesus Christ (the Promise, Galatians 3:16).

No one was saved by the Law, for "all who rely on the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10)
That is the authoritative teaching of the apostle who received his understanding from Jesus Christ personally,
in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-5).
It was always God's plan to offer redemption to those who would believe and receive it through Jesus Christ, yet it was abundantly clear not all would receive it. The Bible clearly says not all will be saved and, also, that not all are condemned.

Humankind died when Adam and Eve sinned. There is no future plan of genocide, only of salvation; but that does not mean those who believe not will not be judged. In fact they are judged of themselves already because they will not believe.

The true gospel says, there is no hope. You are already prepared for the fire, not by God, but by Satan who deceives the whole world. It is he who prepared mankind for the fire. That's Satan's plan, not God's.

Notice that hell and the fire are Satan's dwelling, not God's.

Yet the true gospel says, there is hope if you will believe and, by grace, there is forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ.

Jesus'parable, which is said to be the parable by which all others can be understood makes this clear.

at 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Notice that the man sowed wheat, not wheat and tares. This is why I do not believe predestination as most say Calvin taught it.

It was his enemy who sowed the tares, in secret, even as Satan did when he tempted Eve. Sin is not God's doing.

Yet God's plan, even as this man, is to save the wheat from among the tares.

The tares suffer what tares always suffer, they are burned because they have no value to the farmer and were not his handiwork.

However the wheat is valued even as God values those that are his.

The choice you make reveals what you are, whether wheat or tare. Those who do not believe are tares and are ready to be burned.

All who repent and believe will be saved. This is the true Gospel for they reveal that they are wheat and that they are the planting of the Lord.

Judgment is not merely coming, it is already upon the world because they will not believe in Jesus whom he sent but it is not God's plan.

God did not plan for man to sin but, when he did, he knew what must be done to save those who are his.

Do you understand the true gospel? Believe in it and be saved out of the world, which is heading for destruction For it is destroyed already, by sin.
 
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Jipsah

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Time to stop judging God and telling him what he has to do to be God.
He's God, we're not.
Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? That's the question,. isn't it? So then if God does something that by any human standard is grossly unjust, must we say it's just because it's God doing it? I'm not buying it. If we're told that God is going to do something that's egregiously unjust, as well as cruel, merciless, and utterly out of character with what He's revealed of Himself by dwelling amongst us and dying a ghastly death Himself, then I have to conclude that what we're being told is wrong. Fortunately, the Bible doesn't support that idea anyway, so we've no valid reason to believe that God has decreed that most of the people whom He created must be tortured forever.
 
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Jipsah

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Genocide? Incineration? IMO that is a terrible way to frame God's righteous judgment, as if He would somehow be at fault for having people "tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb" or "thrown into the lake of fire".
He is certainly responsible for designing/creating a universe where that's the default for most of humanity. Sorry, if people are tormented forever, it's by God's design. Some might choose eternal torture, but no one but God created it.
 
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Clare73

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The "true" gospel?
The "true" gospel says, believe or burn? That's not a choice, that is spiritual extortion. Thus turning our loving heavenly Father into a gangster godfather. An offer you can't refuse.
From the mind and wisdom of man. . .NOT!

Kind of like, "Keep smoking and you will get lung cancer"?

Is that extortion, or a warning for another's benefit?

Tsk, tsk. . .your bias blinds you.
 
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Clare73

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The opposite is true as well.
No way to arrive at either Damnationism or Annihilationism except by picking and choosing scripture.

Damnationists always want us to explain their half dozen scriptures, but refuse to explain our two dozen scriptures. Picking and choosing? Indeed.
Jesus' simple word stands in Mark 9:47-48.
 
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Jipsah

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Sez who? Just a number of my fellow Christians who typically don't think that my "Annihilationist" perspective is either coherent or correct.
IMO, only the redeemed are given eternal life. Everyone else ceases to exist (or ever have existed). The wages of sin is death, not eternal life under torture.
 
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Clare73

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I love these kinds of threads because it reminds me that so many Christians assume to know the limits of God's mercy. There's no sense that perhaps God is more powerful than sin or the human will. God is bound by our sinful decisions, apparently.

I'm not saying that UR is obviously true. I'm saying 1) some Christians think the scriptures capture everything that is possible for God, and 2) some Christian can't stand the idea that God would be merciful to anyone outside their group.
Actually, it is we that are bound by God's word regarding it, see Mark 9:47-48.
 
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