God is love, Love is not Jealous, God is a Jealous god???

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 7, 2021

com7fy8 said:
With Jesus we specialize in love and mercy and forgiveness; so, no . . . destroying other people is not in our job description

But it is in God's job description as the verse states.

Kenny'sID · Apr 7, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
I just pointed out that there seems to be a discrepancy in an apologetic forum where I am allowed to ask questions.

So is it ok that Christians try to convince me that their worldview is true yet I am not allowed to do the same?

You misuderstood, and I can understand why you might. Mine was a blanket comment, that too me just gets to the meat of what many Atheists are really trying to do here.

As to your posting, Im glad to see anyone post here, and sometimes, Atheists especially.

Paulomycin · Apr 7, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
I did not write the book. It says He is jealous and the Hebrew word in context means jealous as far as I can tell.

Then what's necessarily "bad" about jealousy in that context? There were so many refutations that were made when the Oprah thing went low-key viral. This is only one example. I'm sure this thread has many more.

GDL · Apr 7, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
How are all three of these verses true at the same time?

It's always context and then harmonizing all the uses of a word also in contexts.

Clizby WampusCat said:
The context fits the definition. How do you pick which definition is correct and which one do you think is correct?

The Greek and Hebrew words translated as "jealous" also have a meaning of "zealous." "Jealous" is not always used negatively, even in English, as seen in #4 & 5 below (from thefreedictionary.com):

jeal•ous
(ˈdʒɛl əs)

adj.
1. resentful and envious, as of someone's success, advantages, etc.: to be jealous of a rich brother.
2. proceeding from suspicious fears or envious resentment: a jealous rage.
3. inclined to suspicions of rivalry, unfaithfulness, etc., as in love: a jealous husband.
4. watchful in guarding something: to be jealous of one's independence.
5. intolerant of unfaithfulness or rivalry: The Lord is a jealous God.
[1175–1225; Middle English jelous, gelos < Old French gelos < Vulgar Latin *zēlōsus= Late Latin zēl(us) zeal + ōsus -ose1]
jeal′ous•ly, adv.

The Exodus verse in context does fit the definition - the definition from #5 - as even this online dictionary shows. God is intolerant of unfaithfulness and rivalry and punishes it as the verse goes on to say.

The 1 Corinthians 13:4 verse is obviously speaking in negative terms, but Paul in the same letter uses the same Greek word in positive ways, and the translators treat it accordingly per context:

NKJ 1 Corinthians 12:31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.

Elsewhere Paul says this, which clarifies the positive usage:

NKJ Galatians 4:18 But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you.

God is perfectly righteous and good. Any of His characteristics will fit this reality.

com7fy8 · Apr 7, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
It is good to be jealous and destroy other people?

To this I said:
With Jesus we specialize in love and mercy and forgiveness; so, no . . . destroying other people is not in our job description

And you Clizby said:
But it is in God's job description as the verse states.

I think you mean where your verse quote said:
5 You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. ~ [in] Exodus 20:4-6 NASB

I already said:
In the case of God, this means He is jealous for us, for our own good . . . not for how humans can use rights selfishly and self-destructively.

Yes, God can destroy ones so their evil does not continue . . . including so they do not ruin themselves much worse.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 7, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
... I think that what Paul was implying in 1 Corinthians 13:4 is that we shouldn't have the kind of jealousy that comes from wanting something that isn't rightfully ours to begin with ...

How did you determine this from the context?

In God's case, He has the RIGHT to begin with, just as our wives have the RIGHT to expect us, their husbands, to focus on them and not on "other women."

I am not asking if He has the right. I am asking if love is not jealous and god is love and jealous then...

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 7, 2021

Paulomycin said:
Then what's necessarily "bad" about jealousy in that context? There were so many refutations that were made when the Oprah thing went low-key viral. This is only one example. I'm sure this thread has many more.

I am not asking if it is good or bad. I am asking why the contradiction.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 7, 2021

com7fy8 said:
Yes, God can destroy ones so their evil does not continue . . . including so they do not ruin themselves much worse.

Yikes!

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 7, 2021

GDL said:
It's always context and then harmonizing all the uses of a word also in contexts.

Tis is why I gave the full context.

The Greek and Hebrew words translated as "jealous" also have a meaning of "zealous." "Jealous" is not always used negatively, even in English, as seen in #4 & 5 below (from thefreedictionary.com):

jeal•ous
(ˈdʒɛl əs)

adj.
1. resentful and envious, as of someone's success, advantages, etc.: to be jealous of a rich brother.
2. proceeding from suspicious fears or envious resentment: a jealous rage.
3. inclined to suspicions of rivalry, unfaithfulness, etc., as in love: a jealous husband.
4. watchful in guarding something: to be jealous of one's independence.
5. intolerant of unfaithfulness or rivalry: The Lord is a jealous God.
[1175–1225; Middle English jelous, gelos < Old French gelos < Vulgar Latin *zēlōsus= Late Latin zēl(us) zeal + ōsus -ose1]
jeal′ous•ly, adv.

The Exodus verse in context does fit the definition - the definition from #5 - as even this online dictionary shows. God is intolerant of unfaithfulness and rivalry and punishes it as the verse goes on to say.

The 1 Corinthians 13:4 verse is obviously speaking in negative terms, but Paul in the same letter uses the same Greek word in positive ways, and the translators treat it accordingly per context:

NKJ 1 Corinthians 12:31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.

Elsewhere Paul says this, which clarifies the positive usage:

NKJ Galatians 4:18 But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you.

God is perfectly righteous and good. Any of His characteristics will fit this reality.

I am not in any way objecting to the positive or negative use of the word. I am objecting to the bible being inerrant and contradictory. I agree that in Exodus definition #5 fits. In the Corinthians passage I would think it would pertain to any negative moral usage such as 1-3 and 5.

Paulomycin · Apr 7, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
I am not asking if it is good or bad. I am asking why the contradiction.

Where is the contradiction? Yes, you posted the verses, but where is the contradiction? Jealousy is only bad for us numerous finite beings. It's justified when someone is simply lying about more than One omnipotent being.

2PhiloVoid · Apr 7, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
How did you determine this from the context?

By simply reading what Paul says to the Corinthians in a way that I'm sure your abusive uncle doesn't.

I am not asking if He has the right. I am asking if love is not jealous and god is love and jealous then...

Paul the Apostle is the one saying this, so the question is really about the coherence of his thought in light of the fact that [as a former Pharisee] he was surely aware of the Old Testament literature and how God is depicted within what for him was Sacred Scripture.

So, if we're going to spend time evaluating Paul's theological and moral thinking in 1 Corinthians, then we'd need to take a whole lot of things about Paul and his mind into account for us to understand what he had to tell the Corinthians about the nature of "Christian" Love.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 7, 2021

Paulomycin said:
Where is the contradiction? Yes, you posted the verses, but where is the contradiction? Jealousy is only bad for us numerous finite beings. It's justified when someone is simply lying about more than One omnipotent being.

Again, I am not questioning weather it is good or bad. I am questioning how can God be love and jealous at the same time when it says Love is not jealous.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 7, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
By simply reading what Paul says to the Corinthians in a way that I'm sure your abusive uncle doesn't.

Then explain it to me.

Paul the Apostle is the one saying this, so the question is really about the coherence of his thought in light of the fact that [as a former Pharisee] he was surely aware of the Old Testament literature and how God is depicted within what for him was Sacred Scripture.

So, if we're going to spend time evaluating Paul's theological and moral thinking in 1 Corinthians, then we'd need to take a whole lot of things about Paul and his mind into account for us to understand what he had to tell the Corinthians about the nature of "Christian" Love.

Then explain.

Paulomycin · Apr 7, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
Again, I am not questioning weather it is good or bad. I am questioning how can God be love and jealous at the same time when it says Love is not jealous.

The law of non-contradiction is that 'A' cannot equal 'non-A' in the same place or relationship.

Love is not jealous.

God's love is particular to the elect.

God's jealousy is towards the reprobate.

God has no love for those who multiply false gods and lie about it after the fact. His jealousy here is sound, because it is directed towards the reprobate (a.) and there are no true rivals to godhood (b.).

GDL · Apr 7, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
I am not in any way objecting to the positive or negative use of the word. I am objecting to the bible being inerrant and contradictory. I agree that in Exodus definition #5 fits. In the Corinthians passage I would think it would pertain to any negative moral usage such as 1-3 and 5.

God is love. And God is a jealous God, meaning He protects His own and does not tolerate disloyalty/unfaithfulness or rivalry.

Love is not jealous, meaning envious.

Two different meanings. Two different contexts.

It's good to be jealous in good things always.

Seems pretty simple. Inerrancy remains intact. Operator error - the Book is fine.

Daniel Marsh · Apr 7, 2021

"God expressed his love for Israel in the Old Testament by proclaiming to be a jealous God. He was not envious of the Israelites' accomplishments or possessions. He already owns it all (Psa. 24:1; cf. 1 Chron. 29:14-16; Psa. 50:10-12). Here he was communicating his holy love for Israel, a love like that of a marriage, a cherished relationship (Deut. 7:6), a godly zeal (Song 8:6). Like an eagle that cares for its young (Deut. 32:11), God watched over the Israelites with righteous jealousy (Ex. 20:3-6; Josh. 24:14-20). Such godly jealousy (2 Cor. 11:2) is different from what Paul had in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:4." A Jealous God? Exodus 20:5

Greg Boyd and the Character of God – Part 3: Exodus 20:5 – The Second Commandment

"
1 Corinthians 13:4

Bible /
Our Library /
Bible Commentaries /
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament /
1 Corinthians /
1 Corinthians 13:4

Verses Matthew 4-7 picture the character or conduct of love in marvellous rhapsody. Suffereth long (makroqumei). Late Koin word (Plutarch) from makro, long, qumo, passion, ardour. Cf. James 5:7 . Is kind (crhsteuetai). From crhsto (useful, gracious, kind) and that from craomai, to use. Not found elsewhere save in Clement of Rome and Eusebius. "Perhaps of Paul's coining" (Findlay). Perhaps a vernacular word ready for Paul. Gentle in behaviour. Envieth not (ou zhloi). Present active indicative of zhlow (contraction oei=oi, same as subjunctive and optative forms). Bad sense of zhlo from zew, to boil, good sense in James 12:31 . Love is neither jealous nor envious (both ideas). Vaunteth not itself (ou perpereuetai). From perpero, vainglorious, braggart (Polybius, Epictetus) like Latin perperus. Only here in N.T. and earliest known example. It means play the braggart. Marcus Anton. V. 5 uses it with areskeuomai, to play the toady. Is not puffed up (ou pusioutai). Present direct middle indicative of pusiow from pusi (late form for pusaw, pusiaw from pusa, bellows), to puff oneself out like a pair of bellows. This form in Herodas and Menander. Is not arrogant. See on James 4:6 ." 1 Corinthians 13:4 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

disciple Clint · Apr 7, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
The Bible describes God as having emotions, Love, hate, sorrow, regret, joy etc.

It is called anthropomorphism. The word anthropomorphism comes from two Greek words, anthropos, meaning “man,” and morphe, meaning “form.” In theological terms, anthropomorphism is making God in some way into the form of man. Mostly, it is the process of assigning human characteristics to God. Human traits and actions such as talking, holding, reaching, feeling, hearing, and the like, all of which are chronicled throughout both the Old and New Testaments, are ascribed to the Creator. We read of God’s actions, emotions, and appearance in human terms, or at least in words we normally accept and associate with humans. What is an anthropomorphism? | GotQuestions.org

2PhiloVoid · Apr 7, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
Then explain it to me.

Then explain.

It's simple really. The essence of our understanding about the contexts which are woven into Paul's thoughts about "Christian love" won't ride solely on our doing a Greek word study of the verb ζηλόω (zéloó) [see Strong's Greek: 2206. ζηλόω (zéloó) -- to be jealous], but it will include this.

No, what we'll also really need to do exegetically is read the entirety of 1 Corinthians and see what themes pervade in Paul's thoughts as he addresses that particular church, and from there we can gradually read and figure out 'why' he even had to tell the Corinthian church that Christian love excludes "jealousy." Once we've done that, then we'll see by the multiple layers of contexts and by the overall flow of Paul's thought that he isn't denouncing some modernistic, generic, universal, all-encompassing notion of jealousy.

Otherwise, if we fail to do the hermeneutical work that is required in understanding this, we'll end up not only thinking that God contradicts Paul about "jealousy," but that Paul contradicts himself when we finally get to the Second letter Paul wrote to the same Corinthian church and read where he says:

2 Corinthians 11:2

2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 8, 2021

disciple Clint said:
It is called anthropomorphism. The word anthropomorphism comes from two Greek words, anthropos, meaning “man,” and morphe, meaning “form.” In theological terms, anthropomorphism is making God in some way into the form of man. Mostly, it is the process of assigning human characteristics to God. Human traits and actions such as talking, holding, reaching, feeling, hearing, and the like, all of which are chronicled throughout both the Old and New Testaments, are ascribed to the Creator. We read of God’s actions, emotions, and appearance in human terms, or at least in words we normally accept and associate with humans. What is an anthropomorphism? | GotQuestions.org

So then Jesus did not have any emotions?
Does God really love then?

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 8, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
It's simple really. The essence of our understanding about the contexts which are woven into Paul's thoughts about "Christian love" won't ride solely on our doing a Greek word study of the verb ζηλόω (zéloó) [see Strong's Greek: 2206. ζηλόω (zéloó) -- to be jealous], but it will include this.

No, what we'll also really need to do exegetically is read the entirety of 1 Corinthians and see what themes pervade in Paul's thoughts as he addresses that particular church, and from there we can gradually read and figure out 'why' he even had to tell the Corinthian church that Christian love excludes "jealousy." Once we've done that, then we'll see by the multiple layers of contexts and by the overall flow of Paul's thought that he isn't denouncing some modernistic, generic, universal, all-encompassing notion of jealousy.

Otherwise, if we fail to do the hermeneutical work that is required in understanding this, we'll end up not only thinking that God contradicts Paul about "jealousy," but that Paul contradicts himself when we finally get to the Second letter Paul wrote to the same Corinthian church and read where he says:

2 Corinthians 11:2

2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

So you neglected to tell me why the 1 Cor passage and the Exodus passage are different. What is the definition of Jealous as used in Exodus 20:5 and the definition as used in 1 Cor 13:4?

God is love, Love is not Jealous, God is a Jealous god???

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