Papal Supremacy

aspie3000

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So, somewhere on this forum, I asked people who are part of the high churches like the Catholics, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc. to explain clearly why they and not the other Churches claiming to be the One True Holy Apostocilic Catholic church who seemed to have just as strong of a historical claim are the true church. Well, it descended into a long nine-page conversation that went nowhere where few people even seemed to try and prove anything and I think that it was probably my fault in the way I asked the question. So after looking through what divides these churches specifically Catholicism and Orthodoxy the main division seems to be whether the Bishop of Rome is the main authority in the Church or not. The argument is about Papal Supremacy. So I am asking on here for Catholics to prove the doctrine of Papal Supremacy and Orthodox Christians to disprove it. I want this thread to be a debate between the two positions. Thank you in advance.
 

GreekOrthodox

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Maria Billingsley

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So, somewhere on this forum, I asked people who are part of the high churches like the Catholics, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc. to explain clearly why they and not the other Churches claiming to be the One True Holy Apostocilic Catholic church who seemed to have just as strong of a historical claim are the true church. Well, it descended into a long nine-page conversation that went nowhere where few people even seemed to try and prove anything and I think that it was probably my fault in the way I asked the question. So after looking through what divides these churches specifically Catholicism and Orthodoxy the main division seems to be whether the Bishop of Rome is the main authority in the Church or not. The argument is about Papal Supremacy. So I am asking on here for Catholics to prove the doctrine of Papal Supremacy and Orthodox Christians to disprove it. I want this thread to be a debate between the two positions. Thank you in advance.
Are you including Protestants ?
 
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aspie3000

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Are you including Protestants ?

Well, if a protestant has something to say about they're free to. I'm really trying to find out how these High Churches justify their position of being the only true church seeing as they're split into at least four churches and that's not really better than we protestants being divided into the many denominations we're divided into. It's not an argumentative question either, I'm genuinely trying to find out if any of these churches have the legitimacy of being the true church but it really surprises me when I ask about this question because when I do, none of these churches even try to justify or provide evidence in their favor or show any interest in debating the question. They just seem to assume that THEY must be the true church and that the others are schismatic heretics or whatever because they're born into their religion I guess. It's really frustrating for a truth seeker like myself. It's like they've never even given this any thought.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Aspie, personally, I want to steer you toward official statements published by each church (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and if you want to jump into the Church of East and Oriental Orthodox, have at it). This is a 1000+ year old issue that we laity are going to argue til the cows come home and it is not our pay grade. We're going to throw different canons, letters, wars, councils and a whole lot of stuff that easily becomes a fight among us.
 
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BobRyan

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So, somewhere on this forum, I asked people who are part of the high churches like the Catholics, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc. to explain clearly why they and not the other Churches claiming to be the One True Holy Apostocilic Catholic church who seemed to have just as strong of a historical claim are the true church. Well, it descended into a long nine-page conversation that went nowhere where few people even seemed to try and prove anything and I think that it was probably my fault in the way I asked the question. So after looking through what divides these churches specifically Catholicism and Orthodoxy the main division seems to be whether the Bishop of Rome is the main authority in the Church or not. The argument is about Papal Supremacy. So I am asking on here for Catholics to prove the doctrine of Papal Supremacy and Orthodox Christians to disprove it. I want this thread to be a debate between the two positions. Thank you in advance.

A "lot" of Christian denominations would be able to provide good logical arguments that disprove papal supremacy to a level of satisfaction for many readers - but of course everyone has free will and can choose to accept or reject as they wish. No one can force someone else to accept or reject any given belief.
 
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thecolorsblend

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When Protestants get involved in these things...

why-the-catholic-church-is-bad01.jpg
 
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concretecamper

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So, somewhere on this forum, I asked people who are part of the high churches like the Catholics, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc. to explain clearly why they and not the other Churches claiming to be the One True Holy Apostocilic Catholic church who seemed to have just as strong of a historical claim are the true church. Well, it descended into a long nine-page conversation that went nowhere where few people even seemed to try and prove anything and I think that it was probably my fault in the way I asked the question. So after looking through what divides these churches specifically Catholicism and Orthodoxy the main division seems to be whether the Bishop of Rome is the main authority in the Church or not. The argument is about Papal Supremacy. So I am asking on here for Catholics to prove the doctrine of Papal Supremacy and Orthodox Christians to disprove it. I want this thread to be a debate between the two positions. Thank you in advance.
I think it might be helpful to define what Papal Supremacy means. I don't think I have read one objection (on this forum) to it that didnt contain errors about what it means.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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I think it might be helpful to define what Papal Supremacy means. I don't think I have read one objection (on this forum) to it that didnt contain errors about what it means.

The best starting point would be Vatican 1, which formally declared the supremacy of the Pope over the church even over a ecumenical council.

according to the testimony of the Gospel, the primacy of jurisdiction over the universal Church of God was immediately and directly promised and given to blessed Peter the Apostle by Christ the Lord. [...] Whence, whosoever succeeds to Peter in this See, does by the institution of Christ himself obtain the Primacy of Peter over the whole Church. [...] The Roman Church possesses a superiority of ordinary power over all other churches, and that this power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, which is truly episcopal, is immediate; to which all, of whatever rite and dignity, both pastors and faithful, both individually and collectively, are bound, by their duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, to submit not only in matters which belong to faith and morals, but also in those that appertain to the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world, so that the Church of Christ may be one flock under one supreme pastor through the preservation of unity both of communion and of profession of the same faith with the Roman Pontiff. [...] And since by the divine right of Apostolic primacy the Roman Pontiff is placed over the universal Church, we further teach and declare that he is the supreme judge of the faithful, and that in all causes, the decision of which belongs to the Church, recourse may be had to his tribunal, and that none may re-open the judgment of the Apostolic See, than whose authority there is no greater, nor can any lawfully review its judgment. Wherefore they err from the right course who assert that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman Pontiffs to an œcumenical Council, as to an authority higher than that of the Roman Pontiff.

— Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus, ch. I, III
 
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concretecamper

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We can add more to further clarify:

This power of the Supreme Pontiff by no means detracts from that ordinary and immediate power of episcopal jurisdiction, by which bishops, who have succeeded to the place of the apostles by appointment of the Holy Spirit, tend and govern individually the particular flocks which have been assigned to them. On the contrary, this power of theirs is asserted, supported and defended by the Supreme and Universal Pastor; for St. Gregory the Great says: “My honor is the honor of the whole Church. My honor is the steadfast strength of my brethren. Then do I receive true honor, when it is denied to none of those to whom honor is due.”
 
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prodromos

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This power of the Supreme Pontiff by no means detracts from that ordinary and immediate power of episcopal jurisdiction
As long as they are in agreement with the Pope :doh:
 
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There are several separate questions here not one.

First , did Peter have primacy amongst apostles
Hard to disagree for any Christian “ tend my sheep etc”

Do successors of Peter have primacy.
( catholics, orthodox generally agree)
The office of keys in OT was indeed a succession, if that was not the intention , why did Jesus refer back to it?

Second , the nature and extent of those powers.
- orthodox Assert this was a matter of respect not authority.
- catholic assert that Matt 16:19 is singular given only to Peter, Indeed as the rock in which the church was built
( although elsewhere It was also given to apostles jointly , so power of councils)
so Popes have limited power to give definitive doctrine judgement ( so called infallibility)


Third , did the popes at some point relinquish the power?
This is the strangest orthodox claim, if a power Was granted by Jesus, only he can take it away,

Fourth where is primacy illustrated?
There are entire books discussing this.
But eg “ there speaks peter - tome of Leo”
Clement speaking to corinthians etc.
Iraneus saying all must take Rome as the guide
Augustine Citing the popes as authority against donatists. etc

Protestant stance? Many respect the pope. But they wanted to assert new doctrine, ( eg sola scriptura) so first they had to disavow authority, and so the pope, but in rejecting the magisterium, they all went different doctrinal ways, so have diverged ever since.

It’s complex

So, somewhere on this forum, I asked people who are part of the high churches like the Catholics, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc. to explain clearly why they and not the other Churches claiming to be the One True Holy Apostocilic Catholic church who seemed to have just as strong of a historical claim are the true church. Well, it descended into a long nine-page conversation that went nowhere where few people even seemed to try and prove anything and I think that it was probably my fault in the way I asked the question. So after looking through what divides these churches specifically Catholicism and Orthodoxy the main division seems to be whether the Bishop of Rome is the main authority in the Church or not. The argument is about Papal Supremacy. So I am asking on here for Catholics to prove the doctrine of Papal Supremacy and Orthodox Christians to disprove it. I want this thread to be a debate between the two positions. Thank you in advance.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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There are several separate questions here not one.

Do successors of Peter have primacy.
( catholics, orthodox generally agree)
The office of keys in OT was indeed a succession, if that was not the intention , why did Jesus refer back to it?

Second , the nature and extent of those powers.
- orthodox Assert this was a matter of respect not authority.
- catholic assert that Matt 16:19 is singular given only to Peter, Indeed as the rock in which the church was built
( although elsewhere It was also given to apostles jointly , so power of councils)
so Popes have limited power to give definitive doctrine judgement ( so called infallibility)


Third , did the popes at some point relinquish the power?
This is the strangest orthodox claim, if a power Was granted by Jesus, only he can take it away,

Fourth where is primacy illustrated?
There are entire books discussing this.
But eg “ there speaks peter - tome of Leo”
Clement speaking to corinthians etc.
Iraneus saying all must take Rome as the guide
Augustine Citing the popes as authority against donatists. etc

Protestant stance? Many respect the pope. But they wanted to assert new doctrine, ( eg sola scriptura) so first they had to disavow authority, and so the pope, but in rejecting the magisterium, they all went different doctrinal ways, so have diverged ever since.

It’s complex

Agreed, I've never really gone into depth of study on the topic but from my understanding is that the pope did have a supremacy kind of as a tie-breaker. Maybe an analogy is the VP of the United States serves as tie-breaker of the Senate. Or as an appeals court analogy. IMHO the issue with Vatican 1 is that the plain reading is that the Pope can simply overrule any decision by another bishop or council. Historically, this became a contention during the Photian Schism.

From Wikipedia
According to the Church of Constantinople, Photius was elected lawfully and canonically by the will of the Byzantine Emperor Michael III in 858. This decision was affirmed later in 879 in a synod of Greek bishops regarded as ecumenical by some in the Orthodox Church. At this synod, Ignatius’ elevation to the patriarchate was declared to be uncanonical and Photius was acclaimed as properly elected as the new patriarch, a decision which ran counter to a previous council held at Constantinople – regarded as ecumenical by the Catholic Church – in which Photius had been deposed and Ignatius reinstated. The Eastern Church resented Nicholas' pressing of the doctrine of papal primacy. This led to conflict between Constantinople and Rome over doctrinal issues such as the addition of the Filioque clause to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed and territorial claims due to the Church of Constantinople's seizure of territory from the Roman Patriarchate in southern Italy, Sicily and Illyricum during the Iconoclast controversy. A synod at Constantinople in 867 excommunicated Nicholas and rejected his claims of primacy, his efforts to convert Bulgaria to the obedience of the Roman Church, and the addition of the Filioque clause in parts of the Latin Church.
 
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