no longer under the law?

Clare73

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Hello,

The Bible does not state that addiction in general is sin, though addition to certain things can be sinful.

In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we aren't under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe God's law, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so we are still under God's law.
God's law includes the greatest two commandments, so it is contradictory to think that we are nor under God's law while under the greatest two commandments, especially because the greatest two are inclusive of all of the other laws. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus was not asked about which were the only laws that we should follow, but about what the greatest commandment is, and the existence of the greatest two commandments implies that there are still other commandments that are not the greatest.
You take away what you give.

First, the Decalogue is included in Jesus two commandments and is observed when observing them,
and then the Decalogue is separate from Jesus two commandments and is observed separately from them.
 
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Soyeong

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You take away what you give.

The Decalogue is included in Jesus two commandments, and the Decalogue is separate from Jesus two commandments.

All of the commandments that God has given can be put in one of the categories of being in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, not just the Decalogue, so they are all included in the greatest two commandments, which is why Jesus said that they all hang on the greatest two. For example, the command to help the poor is not part of the Decalogue, but it is part of what it means to love our neighbor. The same goes for refraining from showing favoritism, kidnapping, rape, and so forth.
 
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Clare73

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Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message,
To repent is to turn.

Jesus was not calling them to repent from sin and turn to the Law.
He was calling them to repent and "believe in him, or die in their sin, condemned" (John 3:18) and under the wrath of God (John 3:36).
which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14). Furthermore, Jesus set a perfect example of how to practice Judaism by walking in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to take the Mosaic Law out of the way, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possessions who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believed in what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20), while saying that he came to take the Mosaic Law along with Judaism our of the way undermines everything that he accomplish through his ministry and the cross. The reason that Jesus establish the New Covenant was not in order to undermine anything that he taught by word or by example.
God did not give any laws for the purpose of creating a dividing wall of hostility,
He also didn't give any laws for the purpose of creating a union of the two.
Irrelevant. . .

The laws of clean and unclean necessarily separated the Jews from the unclean Gentiles.
It resulted in hostility of the Jews toward the unclean Gentiles.

Jesus abolished the ceremonial law, thereby destroying the wall of hostility which separated Jew and Gentile (Ephesians 2:14), reconciling them and created one new man out of the two, thus making peace between them (Ephesians 2:15) through the cross.

You do not understand the New Covenant of grace, you are too focused on the Old Covenant of law.
 
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Clare73

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All of the commandments that God has given can be put in one of the categories of being in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, not just the Decalogue,
Leviticus 25:44-46 has nothing to do with either.
so they are all included in the greatest two commandments, which is why Jesus said that they all hang on the greatest two. For example, the command to help the poor is not part of the Decalogue, but it is part of what it means to love our neighbor. The same goes for refraining from showing favoritism, kidnapping, rape, and so forth.
Leviticus 20:19, 27-28, etc. have nothing to do with either.

Your over-arching purpose leads you to shoe-horning the Scriptures.
 
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Soyeong

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Leviticus 25:44-46 has nothing to do with either.
Leviticus 20:19, 27-28, etc. have nothing to do with either.

Your over-arching purpose leads you to shoe-horning the Scriptures.

You haven't given any justification for your denial. There are many verses in both the OT and the NT that associate our love for God with our obedience to His commandments, so if a particular command is not in regard to how to love our neighbor, then at the very least it is in regard to how to love God, such as:

Exodus 20:6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 11:1 “You shall therefore love the Lord your God and keep his charge, his statutes, his rules, and his commandments always.

Joshua 22:5 Only be very careful to observe the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, to love the Lord your God, and to walk in all his ways and to keep his commandments and to cling to him and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.”

Nehemiah 1:5 And I said, “O Lord God of heaven, the great and awesome God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments,

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

John 14:21 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

John 15:10 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.
 
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Soyeong

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To repent is to turn.

Jesus was not calling them to repent from sin and turn to the Law.
He was calling them to repent and "believe in him, or die in their sin, condemned" (John 3:18) and under the wrath of God (John 3:36).

Indeed, to repent is to turn and is usually used in the context of sins. John the Baptist was calling people to repent from their sins and Jesus was continuing to call for people to do that. He was introduced as the lamb who takes away the sin of the world and he came to save us from our sins (Matthew 1:21). Jesus also spoke against sin throughout his ministry. Furthermore, he was consistent with message of the prophets who called Israel to repent and to return to obedience to the Mosaic Law. In John 3:36, it equates believing in Jesus with obedience to him, so repenting and turning to the Mosaic Law is what it means to believe in Jesus. Likewise, in John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commands, so again that is synonymous with believing in him.

He also didn't give any laws for the purpose of creating a union of the two.
Irrelevant. . .

The laws of clean and unclean necessarily separated the Jews from the unclean Gentiles.
It resulted in hostility of the Jews toward the unclean Gentiles.

Jesus abolished the ceremonial law, thereby destroying the wall of hostility which separated Jew and Gentile (Ephesians 2:14), reconciling them and created one new man out of the two, thus making peace between them (Ephesians 2:15) through the cross.

The command to love our neighbor as ourselves promotes unity. Israel was given the role of being a light and a blessing to the nations, so the purpose of Israel being set apart was not to create hostility. Nevertheless, there was enmity that was produce by Gentile envy of the special status accorded by God to Israel in the Mosaic Law, Jewish pride from being chosen, and Gentile resentment of that pride, and mutual dislike for each others customs, so Jesus destroyed that enmity by creating in himself one new man so that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens, but are not fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God. This has nothing to do with abolishing any laws, especially because Jesus specifically said that he cam not to abolish the least part of the law. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that he gave himself to abolish any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness, so saying that he abolished any laws undermines what he accomplished on the cross. In Romans 3:31, it also confirms that our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, yet you are trying to make Paul say the opposite.

In order to justify interpreting this verse as referring to ceremonial laws, you would first need to show that Paul considered to be a subcategory of ceremonial law and establish which of the 600+ laws he considered to belong in that category, however, the Bible never specifies which of the 600+ laws are ceremonial and never even refers to that subcategory, so you are inserting your own subcategory into the Bible in order to create your own doctrine rather than deriving your interpretation from the Bible, and thus you are in error.


You do not understand the New Covenant of grace, you are too focused on the Old Covenant of law.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so the Mosaic Covenant is also a covenant of Grace, and in Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, so it is also a covenant of law, so the the division you are trying to insert in order to create your own doctrine is in error.
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
Leviticus 25:44-46 has nothing to do with either.
Leviticus 20:19, 27-28, etc. have nothing to do with either.

Your over-arching purpose leads you to shoe-horning the Scriptures.
You haven't given any justification for your denial. There are many verses in both the OT and the NT that associate our love for God with our obedience to His commandments, so if a particular command is not in regard to how to love our neighbor, then at the very least it is in regard to how to love God, such as:

Exodus 20:6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 11:1 “You shall therefore love the Lord your God and keep his charge, his statutes, his rules, and his commandments always.

Joshua 22:5 Only be very careful to observe the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, to love the Lord your God, and to walk in all his ways and to keep his commandments and to cling to him and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.”

Nehemiah 1:5 And I said, “O Lord God of heaven, the great and awesome God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments,

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

John 14:21 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

John 15:10 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.
Non-responsive. . .
 
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Clare73

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Indeed, to repent is to turn and is usually used in the context of sins. John the Baptist was calling people to repent from their sins and Jesus was continuing to call for people to do that. He was introduced as the lamb who takes away the sin of the world and he came to save us from our sins (Matthew 1:21). Jesus also spoke against sin throughout his ministry. Furthermore, he was consistent with message of the prophets who called Israel to repent and to return to obedience to the Mosaic Law.
In John 3:36, it equates believing in Jesus with obedience to him, so repenting and turning to the Mosaic Law is what it means to believe in Jesus.
Likewise, in John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commands, so again that is synonymous with believing in him.
So Orthodox Jews who obey the law believe in Jesus. . .even as they deny and reject him?

The NT is a closed book to you now.

Less cutting and pasting and more study under an athorized Christian teacher is in order.
 
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Soyeong

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So Orthodox Jews who obey the law believe in Jesus. . .even as they deny and reject him?

The NT is a closed book to you now.

Less cutting and pasting and more study under an athorized Christian teacher is in order.

In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been obeying the Mosaic Law without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law, which means that it is possible for Orthodox Jews to do the same.
 
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Soyeong

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Yes, this is a good example of how Jesus completed the Torah. Jewish rabbi believed in a written Torah and an oral Torah. The latter came to be written after the destruction of Jerusalem in the Mishnah, Tosefta, and Talmud but some of its regulations were previously taught by the pharisees and rejected by Jesus as in Mat 5.

In the Council of Jerusalem, the Apostle decided that Gentile converts to Christianity were not obligated to keep most of the fasts, and other specific rituals, including the rules concerning circumcision of males. Thus it was deemed that certain regulations in the Torah were no longer applicable to Christians. After the destruction of Jerusalem, the rabbis themselves had to reach parallel but not exactly similar conclusions as it became obvious that certain regulations could no longer be enforced (Temple regulations, stoning adulterers, etc.).

The point is that Christianity from its very inception proclaimed that justification is by faith alone while accepting the Torah with all its excellent points that you aptly exposed. The Lord and his apostles explained these commandments in the right way intended by the Lawgiver Himself and discarded regulations that had lost their usefulness. In this way, the Torah was completed / fulfilled.

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, so fulfilling the law should not be interpreted as abolishing any part of it, especially when he warned against relaxing the least part of the law or teaching others to do the same, so the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted ruling that certain regulations of the Torah were no longer applicable for Christians. Christ followed the Torah, so that would amount to ruling that followers of Christ shouldn't follow Christ.

The Jerusalem Council did not have the authority to countermand God, so they should not be interpreted as trying to do that. In Acts 15:1, a group of non-believers from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, so they were promoting a false works-based salvation. They were opposed in Acts 15:5 by a group of believers from among the Pharisees who argued that Gentiles needed to become circumcised and obey the Torah, but not in order to be saved, so they were believers promoting a faith-based salvation. In Acts 15:6-18, the Jerusalem Council weighed in favor of faith-based salvation and against the first group. No one where argued against Gentiles obeying the Torah.

The law of the Spirit and the law of Moses are not the same even though they're on the same side, being against the law of sin. I think we're more or less in agreement, here.

God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of Moses (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
 
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Clare73

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In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been obeying the Mosaic Law without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law, which means that it is possible for Orthodox Jews to do the same.
And if the goal of the law is salvation, then he missed it as a Jew, as do Orthodox Jews of today who reject Christ as Paul did when he was a Jew.

Paul doesn't claim righteousness and right standing with God's justice when he was a Jew rejecting Jesus Christ, he teaches elsewhere there is no such thing apart from Jesus Christ, that it is given only through faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ (Romans 3:24-25).
He claims righteousness and right standing with God's justice through faith in Jesus Christ only as a Christian.

There is no salvation for anyone who rejects Jesus Christ.
And if you teach that, you are teaching a perverted gospel (Galatians 1:9) which is Anathema!
 
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Soyeong

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And if the goal of the law is salvation, then he missed it as a Jew, as do Orthodox Jews of today who reject Christ as Paul did when he was a Jew.

Paul doesn't claim righteousness and right standing with God's justice when he was a Jew rejecting Jesus Christ, he teaches elsewhere there is no such thing apart from Jesus Christ, that it is given only through faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ (Romans 3:24-25).
He claims righteousness and right standing with God's justice through faith in Jesus Christ only as a Christian.

There is no salvation for anyone who rejects Jesus Christ.
And if you teach that, you are teaching a perverted gospel (Galatians 1:9) which is Anathema!

Earning our righteousness or salvation was never the goal of the law, but rather knowing Christ has always been the the goal of the law (Romans 10:3-4). In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who were workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so again the goal of the law is to teach us how to know Christ. Likewise, in 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey his commands are liars and the truth is not them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of God's law, and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen or known him. In Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6 they did now know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by showing him His ways that he might know Him, and God has revealed His ways through the Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5). Knowing Jesus is a requirement for salvation.
 
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Soyeong

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When Saul converted to Christianity, he left the law of Moses and Judaism to become a Christian and was under law to Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21) not under law to Moses. Paul condemned those in Galatia for leaving the NT and going back to the OT pointing out it was sinful, Galatians 5:4; Romans 7:1-6.

Paul never stopped identifying as either a Jew (Acts 21:39, 22:3) or as Pharisee (Acts 23:6). Jesus is Jesus did not come to start his own religion following a different God, but rather he came to bring fullness to Judaism as its Jewish Messiah in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. Christ practiced Judaism by living in sinless obedience to the Torah and he taught his followers how to practice it by word and by example, so it doesn't make sense to think that the Law of Christ was something other than what Christ taught. In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for the Torah, so Jews who were coming to faith were not ceasing to obey it and were not considering themselves to be converting to a different religion. In Acts 21:20-24, Paul took steps to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it, so all Christians were Torah observant Jews for roughly the first 7-15 years after Christ's resurrection up until the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10, so Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as its prophases Messiah.

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, and even Christ began his ministry with that message, so it doesn't make sense to interpret Galatians 5:4 as Paul warning us against following Christ and saying that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow Christ. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is how God is gracious to us, not the way to fall form grace. Paul's problem in Galatians was not with those who were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ, but with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified.

In Romans 7:22, Paul delighted in obeying God's law, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, so if Romans 7:4-6 were referring to God's law, then that would mean that Paul was speaking against obeying a law that he delighted in obeying, that he delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, and that he delighted in being held captive, which is absurd, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive.

Circumcision being nothing implies the OT law is nothing, it is not necessary to salvation nor does it dicatate, direct NT Christianity. Romans 2:25 says nothing at all about people today having to keep the OT law. In the context of Romans chapter 1 and 2 Paul is proving all, both Gentile and Jew, are sinners. After proving Gentiles are sinners in chapter 1 Paul turns his attention to the Jews in chapter 2. The Jews were given their own law which gave them an advantage over the Gentile, (Romans 3:1-2). Even though it was an advantage to the Jew, being given that OT law obligated the Jew to also keep it, obey it...which they did not. Paul pointed out the Jews hypcrisy under that OT law "thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?" The Jews accused others of stealing when they stole themselves, they robbed from God (Malachi 3:8-9). Paul's point therefore in Romans 2:25 is that even though the Jews were given their own law and it came with certain privileges as circumcision, they were obligated to keep that law which they did not....they sinned therefore proving Paul's point that Jews are also sinners just as the Gentiles therefore no better than the Gentiles, (Romans 3:9).
So in Romans 2 Paul's point is NOT trying to prove that the OT law is to be kept by men today but rather Paul's point was to prove Gentile and Jews are both sinners and Paul demonstrates the Jews did not keep the OT law given them thereby making them sinners proving his point. The point remains, circumcision is nothing thereby the OT law is nothing.

The Mosaic Law is the commandments of God, so unless you are only interested in quote mining, Paul saying that circumcision has not value and that what matters is obeying the commandments of God could not be interpreted as saying that the commandments of God count for nothing. Paul also said that circumcision has much value in every way (Romans 3:1-2) and he conditionally said that circumcision has value if we obey the Mosaic Law (Romans 2:25), so it should be clear that there are conditions where circumcision has value and where it does not, and the deciding factor is whether we obey the Mosaic Law. In Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by their obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew. Our salvation is from sin and God's law is how we know what sin is (1 John 3:4), so it is contradictory for someone to think that they need salvation from living in transgression of God's law while also thinking that they aren't obligated to obey it.

Many Jews did keep the Mosaic Law, such as Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), so Paul calling out the hypocrisy of some Jews does not mean that all Jews were acting that way or that there were no Jews obeying the Mosaic Law. The fact that Paul was criticizing people for their hypocrisy does not negate what he said.

David did love the OT law and kept it for it ws the law he lived under. But we today are not under the OT but are to love and keep Christ's NT that can justify which that OT law David lived under could not do. Psalms 66:13-15 David offered animal sacrifices as the OT law required. Are you offering these sacrifices as David? THose under the law are bound to keep the WHOLE law for just one offense brings the curse of the law upon one.

The same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus, who set a sinless example for us to follow, and who did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, so there is no disagreement. Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word or by example, but rather it still involves following the God's law (Hebrews 8:10).

The Israelites were given instructions for what to do once they had entered the land while they were still wandering the desert, so there is nothing wrong with not following laws that can't currently be followed. Likewise, when they were in exile in Babylon, the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to His law, which required them to have access to the temple, which they didn't have while they were in exile, when if there is a law that we can't obey, then God honors it when we are faithful to obey as much as we can. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or His curse is based on whether to we follow God or chase after others gods, not based on whether or not we have perfect obedience. Living in complete disobedience to God's law is not an available option to avoid coming under God's curse.

When Paul spoke of 'bondage" or "yolk of bondage" he was for a fact referring to the OT law. False Judaizing teachers lead away some Christians at Galatia away from the NT (Galatians 1:6-7) back to the OT trying to make them keep the OT law. Paul clearly refers to the OT law as "bondage", how those Galatians left freedom in Christ found in the NT and lead back to "bondage" of the OT law, Galatians 2:4. Paul says in returning back to the OT law those Galatians were returning refers to the "weak & beggerly" as Paul calls the OT, Galatians 4:9. Leaving Christ and the NT gospel, they were returning back to bondage of the OT law (Galatians 5:1). The OT law is called bondage for it 'bound' one to sin. To be justified before God under the OT law, that law required perfect, flawless law keeping which the Jew could not do, the Jew would always sin thereby leaving the Jew in "bondage" to sin.

Paul was speaking about works of the law being bondage, not God's law. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith upholds God's law, so there is a law that he spoke again and a law that he was in favor of keeping, and you don't bother to determine which law he was speaking about, then you are guaranteed to misunderstand him. In Galatians 4:8, Paul addressed those verses to those who formerly did not know God, so they were not formerly keeping God's law, which means that he could not have been criticizing them for returning to it. You should be more careful not to take something that was only said against man as being against obeying God.

The view that we have of the Mosaic Law matches the view that we have of the Lawgiver. For example, God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy. The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Mosaic Law, which certainly matched his view of the Lawgiver, so if you have such a poor view of the Mosaic Law that you consider it to be bondage, then you must have an equally poor view of the Lawgiver. Paul also delighted in obeying God's law (Romans 7:22) and that is incompatible with viewing it as being bondage.

Romans 6:19-23 there is nothing here at all about men today having to keep any of the OT law. Paul's point in Romans 7:1-6 still stands in it being sinful to return back to the OT law. Paul uses the insitution of marriage to make his point. If a woman is already married yet marries another man then she is an adulteress being married to 2 men at the same time. This is parallel to the Christian who is married to Christ and His NT, it the Christian goes back to keep thereby 'marry' himself to the OT law then he is committing spiritual adultery against Christ. Yet if the woman's first husband is dead she is free from the law to marry another man. This is parallel to Christ Who took the all OT law out of the way on the cross freeing men from having to keep that law and therefore can keep Christ's NT law without committing spiritual adultery in keeping both laws. Paul's point about it being sinful (spiritual adultery) to go back to the OT law is very simple and straightforward here.
In Romans 6, those Romans being freed from sin turning to serve righteousness came about as a result of their obeying the NT gospel, not the OT law. The doctrine delivered them which they obeyed (Romans 6:17) was the NT gospel. Again, the OT law and its strict requirment in keeping ALL the law flawlessly and perfectly could not justify for the Jew would always sinned. If the OT law and its sacrifices could perfectly justify then there would have been no need for Christ to come to earth and die and bring His NT gospel that does justify, Hebrews 10:1-4 if that OT law come make the comers unto it perfect then there would be no reason for that law to cease making Christ's death in vain Galatians 2:21..."for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain"

Everything in Romans 6 is speaking in favor of obedience to God and against sin. We need to die to sin in order to rise with Christ in newness of life in obedience God, not the other way around. God's law is His instructions for how to serve righteousness. It is completely absurd to think that is is sinful to obey God's law, especially when sin is defined as the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). At no point was the man ever set free from needing to obey any of God's laws, so there is nothing that leads to the same conclusion that in the same way it now sinful to obey God's laws. It is absurd to think that we need to reject God's instructions for how to bear fruit for Him in order to be free to bear fruit for him, or to think that the way to have unity with Christ is by refusing to follow what he spent his ministry teaching by word and by example. Christ didn't teach any laws in the NT that weren't in accordance with the OT and he was not in disagreement with what the Father commanded.

In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the one and only way to become righteous. Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not earn their justification because our justification is not something that can be earned as a wage (Romans 4:4-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of why we should obey God's law. It is not as though the fact that we aren't made righteous by obeying God means that we don't need to obey God.

The NT is what guides the Christian, not the OT law. THe NT guides the Christian in how he is to worship, not the OT law. In Hebrews chapter 9 and 10 Paul shows the difference between these 2 laws. Worship under the OT law was carnal in nature "which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation" (Hebrews 9:10). Whereas NT worship is done is spirit (John 4:23-24). Note the word "until" in Hebrews 9:10. Until is a time limiting word, the OT law was to be kept UNTIL a time of reformation ('time of refreshing' Acts of the Apostles 3:19) which came with Christ and His NT gospel. There was no 'time of refeshing" under the OT law where sins could be wiped out completely, (Hebrews 10:3-4) for that could only happen under the NT gospel and the blood of Christ.

Christ should be who guides Christians, and he taught obedience to the Mosaic Law by word and by example. When the NT teaches us to repent from our sins, it is teaching us to obey the Mosaic Law because it was given to teach what sin is. Hebrews 9:10 is referring to regulations in regard to the body, not to the carnal nature of God's law because carnal works are always those done in disobedience to it. For example, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds on the flesh who refuse to submit God's law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as carnal works that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. The time of the reformation is when conditions are restores to how they were in the Garden.
 
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Soyeong

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In Romans, when Paul referred to the OT law he simply referred to it as 'law". He made no distinction between moral or ceremonial laws. In Romans 3:10-18 Paul takes quotes from Psalms and Isaiah and refers to them as "law" ( Romans 3:19). The entire OT is called "law" and Christ removed ALL the OT law not just parts of it.

The Bible never refers to moral or ceremonial laws. Works of the law and the law of sin are separate categories of law that are not part of the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish the law and warned against relaxing the least part of it or teaching other to do the same, so saying that he removed even the least part of it is calling him a liar and disregarding his warning.
 
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Andrewn

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In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, so fulfilling the law should not be interpreted as abolishing any part of it, especially when he warned against relaxing the least part of the law or teaching others to do the same,
You can convince yourself that you're following the Torah but you're not. You cannot slaughter animals in a temple and you cannot stone adulterers in Jerusalem. God Himself made sure the old system is destroyed. Even Rabbinic Jews cannot follow the entire Torah. It's gone, finished, served its purpose. But you can continue to tell yourself otherwise.

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

so the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted ruling that certain regulations of the Torah were no longer applicable for Christians. Christ followed the Torah, so that would amount to ruling that followers of Christ shouldn't follow Christ.

The Jerusalem Council did not have the authority to countermand God, so they should not be interpreted as trying to do that. In Acts 15:1, a group of non-believers from Judea were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, so they were promoting a false works-based salvation. They were opposed in Acts 15:5 by a group of believers from among the Pharisees who argued that Gentiles needed to become circumcised and obey the Torah, but not in order to be saved, so they were believers promoting a faith-based salvation. In Acts 15:6-18, the Jerusalem Council weighed in favor of faith-based salvation and against the first group. No one where argued against Gentiles obeying the Torah.
So, you read Acts 15 to mean that Christians should practice circumcision and dietary laws so long they don't think they're saved through these things!!!

In Santeria they sacrifice chicken. And Muslims sacrifice sheep one day-a-year. I guess they're doing their best considering that God has destroyed the temple.
 
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Clare73

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Earning our righteousness or salvation was never the goal of the law, but rather
knowing Christ has always been the the goal of the law (Romans 10:3-4).
Not according to the authoritative teaching of the Jesus' own apostles in the NT word of God.

The goal of the only law still in effect; i.e., the Decalogue observed in the observance of Jesus' two commands (Matthew 22:37-41), was to show the nature of sin, it was not for the sake of righteousness (Romans 3:20), for "all who rely on the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10).

Nothing regarding the law saves from God's condemnation of all mankind because of Adam's sin (Romans 5:18). That salvation comes from faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice, which person and work Orthodox Jews reject, even though they obey the law, which avails them nothing eternally.

You should write your own Bible, instead of trying to rewrite the one already received.
 
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Clare73

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The Bible never refers to moral or ceremonial laws.
For your edification, the ceremonial laws are the sacrifices; the clean and unclean foods, garments, houses, persons; the cleansings; the feasts; the years; the Temple; the Aaronic priesthood, the Mosaic lawgiver/mediator; corban, etc.
Works of the law and the law of sin are separate categories of law that are not part of the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish the law and warned against relaxing the least part of it or teaching other to do the same, so saying that he removed even the least part of it is calling him a liar and disregarding his warning.
A half-truth is a lie.
Jesus also said in the same sentence that he came to fulfill the law, which he did, and now it is obsolete (Hebrews 7:12), along with the covenant which established it (Hebrews 8:3).

We now live in its fulfillment, not in its shadows (Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 8:5, Hebrews 10:1).

Will you ever learn to come into the New Covenant of Jesus Christ, the Messiah?
OT shadows are more important to you than the NT realities of which they are only the images.
Someone is selling you "a bill of goods."
 
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Soyeong

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For your edification, the ceremonial laws are the sacrifices; the clean and unclean foods, garments, houses, persons; the cleansings; the feasts; the years; the Temple; the Aaronic priesthood, the Mosaic lawgiver/mediator; corban, etc.

The laws that people consider to be ceremonial vary from person to person. For example, I've spoken with a number of people who have stated that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God while all of the other laws are ceremonial laws that were nailed to the cross. Some people have a more nuanced view where they consider laws like those against homosexual sex, inappropriate behavior with animals, rape, kidnapping, showing favoritism, and loving our neighbor to also be moral laws, so I was not saying that we can't describe God's laws as being moral or ceremonial, but that the Bible does not give an official list of which laws are ceremonial and never even refers to those categories. If I wanted, then I could categorize God's laws based on which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey them, such as with the law against theft being a hand law, however, the fact that I can do that does not establish that any of the authors of the Bible categorized God's laws in that manner, so if I were to interpret a verse as referring to hand laws, then I would inserting my category into the Bible rather than deriving my interpretation from the Bible, and I would be quickly running into error. So if we can't establish an official list of which laws Paul considered to be ceremonial or even that he considered that to be a subcategory of law, then interpreting him as referring to that subcategory leads to the same error.

A half-truth is a lie.
Jesus also said in the same sentence that he came to fulfill the law, which he did, and now it is obsolete (Hebrews 7:12), along with the covenant which established it (Hebrews 8:3).

We now live in its fulfillment, not in its shadows (Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 8:5, Hebrews 10:1).

Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, so fulfilling the law should not be interpreted as meaning essentially the same thing, especially when it came with a warning against relaxing the least part of the law or teaching others to do the same. Rather, "to fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses.

The way to testify about God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, not on any particular covenant, and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to do that are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. For example, if the way to testify about God's righteousness were to change when the New Covenant was made, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, but it is eternal, so Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, such as with it becoming righteous to commit idolatry or sinful to help the poor, but rather the context is referring to a change of the priesthood, which would also require a change of the law in regard to its administration. In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, so while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete in Hebrews 8:13, God's eternal law did not become obsolete along with it.

In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover Lamb, however, instead of concluding that we should no longer keep Passover, he concluded that we should therefore continue to keep it. God's holy days are important foreshadows of what is come, so Paul was encouraging the Colossians to continue to keeping them and to not let anyone judge them and prevent them from keeping them. The foreshadows testify about who God is and about His plan of redemption, so we live in a way that testifies about the truth of what God's holy days teach us by continuing to observe them rather than living in a way that denies their truth by refusing to keep them.
 
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Soyeong

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You can convince yourself that you're following the Torah but you're not. You cannot slaughter animals in a temple and you cannot stone adulterers in Jerusalem. God Himself made sure the old system is destroyed. Even Rabbinic Jews cannot follow the entire Torah. It's gone, finished, served its purpose. But you can continue to tell yourself otherwise.

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The Israelites were given instructions while they were still wandering the desert that they were only supposed to follow once they had entered the land, having laws that can't currently be followed does not mean that they disappear, and there is nothing wrong with not following laws that can't currently be followed. God's laws didn't go anywhere after the destruction of 1st temple, so there is nothing about the destruction of the 2nd temple that means that they have disappeared. When the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which required them to have access to the temple, which they didn't have while they were in exile, so when there are laws that can't be followed, then God honors it when we are nevertheless faithful to obey as much as we can.

While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same laws for how to testify about His nature. The way to testify about God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, not on any particular covenant, and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to do that are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any of God's covenants being made or become obsolete that changes which actions are in accordance with or against His nature. Unbelievers are required to repent from doing what God's law has revealed to be sin even though they aren't under the New Covenant, so there is nothing about not being under the Mosaic Covenant that means that we aren't required to repent from doing what God's law reveals to be sin. In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, so the fact that the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete does not mean that we should not continue to obey God's eternal law.

So, you read Acts 15 to mean that Christians should practice circumcision and dietary laws so long they don't think they're saved through these things!!!

In Santeria they sacrifice chicken. And Muslims sacrifice sheep one day-a-year. I guess they're doing their best considering that God has destroyed the temple.

The distinction between being justified by our works or being justified by faith was a major issue for early Christians, which they wrote a lot about. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so only those who have faith in God will obey it and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul could say in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified while denying in Romans 4:4-5 that our justification is something that can be earned as a wage. He said in Romans 3:27-31 that we are justified by faith apart from works of the law, so he was denying that there are any works that we can do to earn our justification, however, he did not want us to conclude that our faith therefore abolishes our need to obey God's law, but rather the same faith by which we are justified also upholds God's law by leading us to obey it.
 
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Not according to the authoritative teaching of the Jesus' own apostles in the NT word of God.

I've given many verses from Jesus, the Apostles, and the rest of the Bible that show that knowing Jesus is the goal of the law, so are you denying the truth of those verses?

The goal of the only law still in effect; i.e., the Decalogue observed in the observance of Jesus' two commands (Matthew 22:37-41), was to show the nature of sin, it was not for the sake of righteousness (Romans 3:20), for "all who rely on the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10).

Nothing regarding the law saves from God's condemnation of all mankind because of Adam's sin (Romans 5:18). That salvation comes from faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice, which person and work Orthodox Jews reject, even though they obey the law, which avails them nothing eternally.


In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus was not asked about which were the only commands that we should follow, but about what the greatest commandment was. There are a number of instances where some of God's laws appear to conflict, such as when God commanded to rest on the Sabbath, but also commanded priests to making offerings on the Sabbath (Numbers 28:9-10), however, it was not the case that priests were forced to sin by breaking one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do, but that one of the commandments was greater than the other and the lesser command was never intended to be understood as preventing the greater command from being obeyed. This is why Jesus said that priests are held innocent for performing their duties, why David and his men were held innocent, why Jesus defended the innocence of his disciples (Matthew 12:5-7), why they were permitted to get their ox out of a ditch on the Sabbath, and why Jesus ruled that it it is lawful to heal on the Sabbath etc., so determining which commandments are the greatest is a matter of priority and has absolutely nothing to do with limiting which commandments we should follow. Jesus said that all Law and the Prophets hang on the greatest two commandments, so the moment you try to pick up just the greatest two commandments, everything else in the Mosaic Law comes with them.

God's law straightforwardly does what is was give to do and does not do what is was not given to do, so we do not earn our righteousness by obeying it because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't obey it for the purposes for which it was given. God's law is holy, righteous, and good, which is straightforwardly because it is God's instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good, and to do the opposite of that is sin, and the purpose of teaching us how to express these aspects of God's character it to teach us how to experience who He is and how to thereby grow in a relationship with Him. God's law teaches us how to trust in the person or character of Christ by using his character as the model for how to rightly live our lives.

I have never once said that we should rely on works of the law, so you can stop burning that straw man. Again, Orthodox Jews can obey the law while missing the goal of the law and thus not be saved.

You should write your own Bible, instead of trying to rewrite the one already received.

I am the one arguing in favor of obeying what God's word while you are trying to rewrite the Bible as being against obeying what God's word, so you should take your own advice.
 
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