Guilty: Verdict reached in trial of Derek Chauvin, ex-officer accused in George Floyd's death

Der Alte · Apr 6, 2021

iluvatar5150 said:
What makes you think that neck compression is required here?

Is that not what everyone is screaming Chauvin [deliberately] killed Floyd by continuous pressure with his knee on Floyd's neck? What other factor, if any, would be present here to asphyxiate Floyd?

iluvatar5150 · Apr 6, 2021

Der Alte said:
Is that not what everyone is screaming Chauvin [deliberately] killed Floyd by continuous pressure with his knee on Floyd's neck? What other factor, if any, would be present here to asphyxiate Floyd?

Any decent grappler (wrestling, judo, bjj, etc) can make it hard to breath by putting a ton of pressure on your chest and abdomen while avoiding your neck entirely.

Der Alte · Apr 6, 2021

iluvatar5150 said:
Any decent grappler (wrestling, judo, bjj, etc) can make it hard to breath by putting a ton of pressure on your chest and abdomen while avoiding your neck entirely.

Really? We are not talking about what "Any decent grappler (wrestling, judo, bjj, etc)" can do but what did Chauvin do? My conclusion is that nothing Chauvin did was a direct cause of Floyd's death. Nothing Chauvin was extensively videotaped doing could possibly have asphyxiated, choked, strangled Floyd. The anti-Police crowd needs to get a different battle cry. Much like the battle cry over Michael Brown "Hands up don't shoot." The physical evidence in the street, I can provide a link. shows Brown did not have his hands up and was advancing toward the officer when he was shot.

iluvatar5150 · Apr 6, 2021

Der Alte said:
Really? We are not talking about what "Any decent grappler (wrestling, judo, bjj, etc)" can do but what did Chauvin do? My conclusion is that nothing Chauvin did was a direct cause of Floyd's death. Nothing Chauvin was extensively videotaped doing could possibly have asphyxiated, choked, strangled Floyd.

Your argument is based on your test of pressing your own head and chest against a wall and demonstrating that you still had room enough to fit your fist in between your neck in the wall.

I brought up the point about "any decent grappler" because your test is stupid. You don't have to cut off the neck arteries or the trachea in order to induce asphyxiation or trigger some other kind of physiological reaction. You can do a lot of that with just pressure (pressure that you can't physically apply to yourself, which is why your test is dumb).

Looks like Chauvin's got his left leg mostly on Floyd's neck - maybe a little across his shoulders and his right leg somewhere in Floyd's back. The next officer has his left leg somewhere on Floyd's lower back or butt. The rest of the control points are on his legs. That's potentially a ton of pressure they applied to his neck and torso, and for a long time.

Yttrium · Apr 6, 2021

Der Alte said:
Strangulation is not limited to compression with the hands.
You have got to be kidding. Wiki? Wiki is about as reliable as the scribblings on a public facility wall. Anybody can post, change, delete anything without review or control. I have done it a few time to prove to show scoffers that it can be done.

You do know that it lists references, right?

If petechial hemorrhages and facial congestion are present, it is a strong indication of asphyxia by strangulation as the cause of death.

Once again, this is not considered a case of strangulation.

I'm burdened by this old fashioned idea "Guilty until PROVEN guilty." That does not mean the group that can shout the loudest.

I haven't said anything about guilt or innocence. I'm simply pointing out that this is considered a case of death by asphyxia, not strangling, so your details about strangulation aren't relevant.

Der Alte · Apr 6, 2021

iluvatar5150 said:
Your argument is based on your test of pressing your own head and chest against a wall and demonstrating that you still had room enough to fit your fist in between your neck in the wall.
I brought up the point about "any decent grappler" because your test is stupid. You don't have to cut off the neck arteries or the trachea in order to induce asphyxiation or trigger some other kind of physiological reaction. You can do a lot of that with just pressure (pressure that you can't physically apply to yourself, which is why your test is dumb).
Looks like Chauvin's got his left leg mostly on Floyd's neck - maybe a little across his shoulders and his right leg somewhere in Floyd's back. The next officer has his left leg somewhere on Floyd's lower back or butt. The rest of the control points are on his legs. That's potentially a ton of pressure they applied to his neck and torso, and for a long time.

A ton? You obviously do not know what you are talking about? There is at most less than 200 pounds on Floyds neck and shoulders and less than 200 pounds on Floyd's lower back. Part of both their weights are on their feet.
I weight 230, I just knelt on my scales with feet on the floor 175 pounds. That would be about 87 pounds on the neck and 87 pounds on the shoulders.
We can only hope that the Floyd jury is not as biased as you are. Innocent until proven guilty NOT as you are doing guilty until never.

Der Alte · Apr 6, 2021

Yttrium said:
You do know that it lists references, right?

So consult, read and cite the reference not a possibly incorrect second hand quote.

Once again, this is not considered a case of strangulation.

Irrelevant. Petechia is a sign of lack of oxygen.

I haven't said anything about guilt or innocence. I'm simply pointing out that this is considered a case of death by asphyxia, not strangling, so your details about strangulation aren't relevant.

Still irrelevant. Why don't you read the credible sources I quoted and linked. Afraid of the truth.

Yttrium · Apr 6, 2021

Der Alte said:
So consult, read and cite the reference not a possibly incorrect second hand quote.

Irrelevant. Petechia is a sign of lack of oxygen.

Still irrelevant. Why don't you read the credible sources I quoted and linked. Afraid of the truth.

I did read them. What would I be afraid of? What point are you trying to make about petechia? I thought you were trying to say that a lack of petechia implied no strangulation... and I agree with the lack of strangulation in this case.

...

Just in case you're thinking of lack of petechia as a sign that there was also no asphyxia, let me post this here, since I've just been reading through it:

2000petechiaereview.pdf (charlydmiller.com)

Conjunctival and facial petechiae have been regarded as classic signs of asphyxial deaths (1–11). First described by Tardieu in the nineteenth century, external and visceral petechiae have since been interpreted as hypoxia-related sequelae of asphyxia, sometimes being attributed in part to “mechanical obstruction of the upper airway” (12,13). Despite consensus in the literature that cephalic petechiae are not found in all asphyxial deaths, and that they are observed commonly in natural deaths without an asphyxial mechanism (2–7,13–15), the view that petechiae and asphyxia are causally linked continues to be perpetuated, without regard to the inherent inconsistencies central to that theory.

iluvatar5150 · Apr 6, 2021

Der Alte said:
A ton? You obviously do not know what you are talking about? There is at most less than 200 pounds on Floyds neck and shoulders and less than 200 pounds on Floyd's lower back. Part of both their weights are on their feet.
I weight 230, I just knelt on my scales with feet on the floor 175 pounds. That would be about 87 pounds on the neck and 87 pounds on the shoulders.
We can only hope that the Floyd jury is not as biased as you are. Innocent until proven guilty NOT as you are doing guilty until never.

"A ton" was used colloquially - i.e. "a lot."

87 lb is a lot if directed appropriately.

Erik Nelson · Apr 6, 2021

Body cam video shows Officer Chauvin's knee rested upon George Floyd's shoulder blade, not neck:

NEW: Alternate Camera Angle Blows Massive Hole in George Floyd Narrative

Yttrium · Apr 6, 2021

Erik Nelson said:
Body cam video shows Officer Chauvin's knee rested upon George Floyd's shoulder blade, not neck:

NEW: Alternate Camera Angle Blows Massive Hole in George Floyd Narrative

Even if he rested his knee on Floyd's shoulder blade instead of his neck for the entire duration (and I would be surprised if he didn't shift his knee around a little during that time), it wouldn't change the narrative, which is that Chauvin pressed Floyd into the concrete so he had a hard time breathing, leading to asphyxiation. Remember, we're not talking about strangulation here, we're talking about asphyxiation.

Sparagmos · Apr 7, 2021

Der Alte said:
Is that a fact?
Care to review the Hennepin county coroner autopsy? Do you know what the primary physical evidence for death by strangulation is? See A. and B. Some folks read, hear and see what they want to.

George F1oyd
20-3700
Page 2
III'. No life-threatening injuries identified
A. No facia1, ora1 mucosal, or conjunctiva1 petechiae
B. No injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngea1 structures
C. No scalp soft tissue, skul1, or brain injuries
D. No chest wa11 soft tissue injuries, rib fractures (other than a sing1e rib fracture from CPR), vertebra1 column injuries, or viscera1 injuries
E. Incision and subcutaneous dissection of posterior and 1atera1 neck, shou1ders, back, f1anks, and buttocks negative for occult trauma
***
https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hen...lic-safety/documents/floyd-autopsy-6-3-20.pdf

Is the allegation that Chauvin strangled him? Is that a general term?

Sparagmos · Apr 7, 2021

Erik Nelson said:
Body cam video shows Officer Chauvin's knee rested upon George Floyd's shoulder blade, not neck:

NEW: Alternate Camera Angle Blows Massive Hole in George Floyd Narrative

That was like 30 seconds at the end. What about the other 7 minutes?

Nithavela · Apr 7, 2021

Der Alte said:
A ton? You obviously do not know what you are talking about? There is at most less than 200 pounds on Floyds neck and shoulders and less than 200 pounds on Floyd's lower back. Part of both their weights are on their feet.
I weight 230, I just knelt on my scales with feet on the floor 175 pounds. That would be about 87 pounds on the neck and 87 pounds on the shoulders.
We can only hope that the Floyd jury is not as biased as you are. Innocent until proven guilty NOT as you are doing guilty until never.

Pressure is Force per Unit Area by Ron Kurtus - Physics Lessons: School for Champions

Der Alte · Apr 7, 2021

Nithavela said:
Pressure is Force per Unit Area by Ron Kurtus - Physics Lessons: School for Champions

Mildly informative can you now please apply the formulae to the topic. I knelt on my scales with feet on the floor. I weigh 230, scales showed 175 so about 87 pounds per knee. The knee on Floyd's neck could not have restricted Floyd's breathing.

Landon Caeli · Apr 7, 2021

Chauvin probably just thought Floyd was taking a nap.

Nithavela · Apr 7, 2021

Der Alte said:
Mildly informative can you now please apply the formulae to the topic. I knelt on my scales with feet on the floor. I weigh 230, scales showed 175 so about 87 pounds per knee. The knee on Floyd's neck could not have restricted Floyd's breathing.

(Please excuse me for using metric units. I prefer thinking without the e-brake on)

Your scales messure weight, not pressure. They do this by distributing your weight to a set area and calculating your weight from there.

The important unit for this discussion is pressure. Take, for example, a 5 kilo weight. You could have a 5 kilo flat steel disk lying on your stomach without any discomfort. But take a long, thin needle and weight it down with five kilos, and it will pierce right through you.

Let's say that a knee joint has an area of 100 square centimeters. If you exert 40 kilos of weight on that area, you can easily caculate with the formula in the link that 40 Kilos / 0,01 m² equals 4000 pascal of pressure. In other words, that would be like having 4 kilotons of weight stacked on top of a 1 square meter area.

That's what people mean with "tons".

BNR32FAN · Apr 7, 2021

iluvatar5150 said:
Any decent grappler (wrestling, judo, bjj, etc) can make it hard to breath by putting a ton of pressure on your chest and abdomen while avoiding your neck entirely.

I don’t see any pressure being put on Floyd’s chest, abdomen, or his back for that matter. It’s clear that the pressure is being applied to the back/side of Floyd’s neck which won’t obstruct air ways or cause asphyxiation.

BNR32FAN · Apr 7, 2021

Landon Caeli said:
Chauvin probably just thought Floyd was taking a nap.

No most likely he thought he was faking since Floyd was saying “I can’t breathe” before he even went to the ground. As the officers were trying to put him in the vehicle Floyd began saying that he is claustrophobic and that he couldn’t breathe while he was still standing up. Floyd went to the ground by his own will refusing to get into the vehicle. Here’s some statements given by the officers and the video evidence. DocumentCloud

Yttrium · Apr 7, 2021

Der Alte said:
Mildly informative can you now please apply the formulae to the topic. I knelt on my scales with feet on the floor. I weigh 230, scales showed 175 so about 87 pounds per knee.

Chauvin was probably putting a majority of weight on his other leg, leaving even less weight on Floyd's neck.

Guilty: Verdict reached in trial of Derek Chauvin, ex-officer accused in George Floyd's death

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