When does the rapture happen? Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib?

When does the rapture happen? Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib?

  • Pre-trib

  • Mid-trib

  • Post-trib


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BABerean2

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Are those in sheol God's people? Are dead people walking around today destroying each other and earth, God's people? People who choose their own way are dead in their own sins. They are not God's people. They will be destroyed, not rewarded. God's people will be rewarded. Those in sheol are still waiting to be judged. The verse does not say anything about those in sheol. It is talking about Adam's flesh and blood still alive. The church is not dead but alive. John is quoting Psalms 2.


The word "sheol" is not in the text.
What you are saying is not found in the passage.

What part of Psalm 2 is found in Revelation 11:15-18?
You should be able to prove your point by quoting the exact text.

.
 
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Timtofly

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The word "sheol" is not in the text.
What you are saying is not found in the passage.

What part of Psalm 2 is found in Revelation 11:15-18?
You should be able to prove your point by quoting the exact text.

.
All of Psalm 2. The time has come for Christ to come and reign. The heathen will no longer be, but will be judged. If sheol is not in the text, then my point stands. The dead are not raised in judgment. That was your point.
 
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BABerean2

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All of Psalm 2. The time has come for Christ to come and reign. The heathen will no longer be, but will be judged. If sheol is not in the text, then my point stands. The dead are not raised in judgment. That was your point.

If you were referencing part of Revelation 12, you would have been correct.

Rev 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.


The words of Jesus below prove you are wrong.

Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.


.
 
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ewq1938

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How can there be a time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some and destruction for others in Revelation 11:15-18, without a bodily resurrection of the dead?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.


That is the dead in Christ being resurrected and judged. The unsaved dead are not resurrected at the second coming. The saved dead resurrect then "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" is when the unsaved dead resurrect.
 
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BABerean2

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That is the dead in Christ being resurrected and judged. The unsaved dead are not resurrected at the second coming.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

In the passage above Paul said the judgment of both the living and the dead comes at his appearing.
The judgment of the dead is found at the end of Revelation 20, and in Revelation 11:18.
(The same event.)

In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Paul said the fire comes at Christ's return.
The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

This proves the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

-----------------------------------------------

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:

(which prove the book is not in chronological order)


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Why does an angel come down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if the pit was not already locked?
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.

Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

.
 
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ewq1938

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2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

In the passage above Paul said the judgment of both the living and the dead comes at his appearing.

Yes and those are his dead and living believers. The dead will be resurrected and the living will be changed and they will be judged to receive eternal life.

You are confusing that with "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished".

That shows there is a thousand years inbetween the two resurrections.
 
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DavidPT

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Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


How can the following be describing the same events?


Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


How can anyone in Revelation 6:15-16 be gathered together to make war with Him that sat on the horse, and against His army, if they are instead hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains? When do they come out of hiding in order to fulfill Revelation 19:19? Where are the passages that show when and how they come out of hiding?
 
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ewq1938

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How can the following be describing the same events?


Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


How can anyone in Revelation 6:15-16 be gathered together to make war with Him that sat on the horse, and against His army, if they are instead hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains? When do they come out of hiding in order to fulfill Revelation 19:19? Where are the passages that show when and how they come out of hiding?

Here is when the change happens:

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
 
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sovereigngrace

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That is the dead in Christ being resurrected and judged. The unsaved dead are not resurrected at the second coming. The saved dead resurrect then "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" is when the unsaved dead resurrect.

Repeated Scripture show a general resurrection/ judgment when Jesus comes. One necessitates the other. He judges the living and the dead when He returns. Who is not included in that company?

Christ tells us in John 12:48, He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

There you have it! The same day that the righteous are raised is the same day the wicked are judged.

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”
 
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sovereigngrace

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How can the following be describing the same events?


Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


How can anyone in Revelation 6:15-16 be gathered together to make war with Him that sat on the horse, and against His army, if they are instead hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains? When do they come out of hiding in order to fulfill Revelation 19:19? Where are the passages that show when and how they come out of hiding?

One is describing Him appearing in glory. One is describing the result of His appearing in glory. Simple and climactic and totally destructive of Premil.
 
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BABerean2

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How can the following be describing the same events?


Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


How can anyone in Revelation 6:15-16 be gathered together to make war with Him that sat on the horse, and against His army, if they are instead hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains? When do they come out of hiding in order to fulfill Revelation 19:19? Where are the passages that show when and how they come out of hiding?


Do you deny there are signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as there are in the Olivet Discourse at the Second Coming of Christ?

Do you deny several of the same characters are found in Revelation 6 and also in chapter 19?

Do you deny the text says it is the day of wrath?


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Do you deny the verse above is related to the wrath of the Lamb?

.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Again, you twist Scripture to support your false teaching. It says living and dead, not living and dead believers as you invent. This negates your theology.

Amen for pointing that out.
The notion is repeated several times in the whole NT REVELATION....

I will post them if anyone is really interested.
 
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BABerean2

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You are confusing that with "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished".

That shows there is a thousand years inbetween the two resurrections.

I am not confusing anything Paul said.

In 2 Thessalonian 1:7-10 Paul said the fire comes at the return of Christ, and the fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing, and the judgment occurs at the end of Revelation 20.


Destroying Premillennialism in less than ten minutes:

.
 
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DavidPT

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Do you deny there are signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as there are in the Olivet Discourse at the Second Coming of Christ?

Do you deny several of the same characters are found in Revelation 6 and also in chapter 19?

Do you deny the text says it is the day of wrath?


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Do you deny the verse above is related to the wrath of the Lamb?

.


Maybe it's just a matter of which event comes first, and not that these are parallel events from different perspectives? Are they hiding first, then they are gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army? Or are they first gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army, then they go into hiding after that? Speaking for myself, if it is one of those 2 options, the latter option makes better sense to me. All I know is, it makes zero sense to be gathered together to make war with someone if everyone is being depicted as hiding in the rocks of the mountains trembling in fear at the time. Rev 19:19 depicts no such thing.

Of course though, in general, a chronology of events only seem to matter to Premil and not to Amil as well. A lot of Amils apparently think these events happen in the twinkling of an eye, while Premils don't think that.
 
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BABerean2

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Maybe it's just a matter of which event comes first, and not that these are parallel events from different perspectives? Are they hiding first, then they are gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army? Or are they first gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army, then they go into hiding after that? Speaking for myself, if it is one of those 2 options, the latter option makes better sense to me. All I know is, it makes zero sense to be gathered together to make war with someone if everyone is being depicted as hiding in the rocks of the mountains trembling in fear at the time. Rev 19:19 depicts no such thing.

Of course though, in general, a chronology of events only seem to matter to Premil and not to Amil as well. A lot of Amils apparently think these events happen in the twinkling of an eye, while Premils don't think that.

You have taken one tiny detail out of two passages full of symbolic language and claimed they cannot be the same, because that detail is not found in both passages.

Yet, you are ignoring the common elements of both passages.

If two people witnessed the same automobile accident, do you think they would use exactly the same words to describe the accident even though they may have witnessed the accident from different angles?
In the same way, John was given a series of different visions all related to the same event.

.
 
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Timtofly

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If you were referencing part of Revelation 12, you would have been correct.

Rev 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.


The words of Jesus below prove you are wrong.

Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
Read Psalms 2. It has more to do with Revelation 11 than John 5. Revelation 11 does not quote John 5. It quotes Psalms 2.
 
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Timtofly

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Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.
Where does John claim their souls went to heaven and their bodies remained on earth? There is no proof their souls and bodies separated. John does not say their souls re-entered their bodies. It was a breath/spirit from God:
"But after the three-and-a-half days a breath of life from God entered them."
 
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Timtofly

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How can anyone in Revelation 6:15-16 be gathered together to make war with Him that sat on the horse, and against His army, if they are instead hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains? When do they come out of hiding in order to fulfill Revelation 19:19? Where are the passages that show when and how they come out of hiding?
Chapter 13 claims people are buying and selling food and goods. People are resilient.

They did hide at the Second Coming. After 4 or 5 years, they are prepared to fight God, with Satan's help.

How can most here explain how Satan and all on earth knew the exact timing of the Second Coming? They did not. The Second Coming happened years before they attempted to challenge God.

The answer is Satan tried to bring back normal life, in the aftermath of the Second Coming, the Trumpets, and the Thunders.
 
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BABerean2

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Where does John claim their souls went to heaven and their bodies remained on earth? There is no proof their souls and bodies separated. John does not say their souls re-entered their bodies. It was a breath/spirit from God:
"But after the three-and-a-half days a breath of life from God entered them."

Do you believe a person's soul can live in their dead body for 3 days?


Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

.
 
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