God Is a Physical Being

JAL · Apr 4, 2021

Bottom line. All we know for sure is matter. Therefore the default translation of pneuma is material wind/breath, and any seeming fairytale claim of magical immaterial substance is therefore an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary amounts of supportive evidence and yet:
(1) Scripture clearly has hard evidence for wind/breath (e.g. John 20:22).
(2) Scripture has NO hard evidence for immaterialist translations. Zero.

In other words, "spirit" originated in a homosexual pagan philosopher named Plato. If he had never lived, you wouldn't imagine for a moment that Scripture speaks of "spirit".

JAL · Apr 4, 2021

BTW, marking all my posts as "funny" is just an act of immaturity on your part. You're not fooling anyone. Your failure to address my arguments on this thread is quite telling.

Daniel Marsh · Apr 5, 2021

JAL said:
My position is on this thread is that:
(1) Philosophers convinced the church to believe in a magical immaterial substance called "spirit".
(2) Otherwise the Greek and Hebrews terms would naturally convey material wind/breath to us.
(3) Since matter is the only sure thing, the burden of proof falls on the immaterialists. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary amounts of supportive evidence.
(4) There is no plausible evidence for the translation "spirit".
(5) There is PLENTY of evidence against that interpretation. Specifically there is plenty of evidence that the biblical writers always had in mind wind/breath, for example the title of the Third Person as "The Holy Wind/Breath" (see John 20:22).

Matthew 12:28
But I use the power of God’s Spirit to force out demons, and this shows that God’s kingdom has come to you.

Matthew 12:31
“So I tell you, people can be forgiven for every sinful thing they do and for every bad thing they say against God. But anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Romans 5:5
And this hope will never disappoint us. We know this because God has poured out his love to fill our hearts through the Holy Spirit he gave us.

Romans 8:9
But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:16
You should know that you yourselves are God’s temple. God’s Spirit lives in you.

1 Corinthians 6:19
You should know that your body is a temple for the Holy Spirit that you received from God and that lives in you. You don’t own yourselves.

Christians have God's Spirit living inside us. As such, we experience him. That is how we know the spiritual world exists.

Daniel Marsh · Apr 5, 2021

Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God
John 1:14 ESV / 170 helpful votes
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 122 helpful votes
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Colossians 2:9 ESV / 104 helpful votes
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

John 1:1 ESV / 94 helpful votes
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Philippians 2:7 ESV / 85 helpful votes
But made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

John 8:58 ESV / 84 helpful votes
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Hebrews 4:15 ESV / 80 helpful votes
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

John 10:30 ESV / 71 helpful votes
I and the Father are one.”

Luke 2:52 ESV / 43 helpful votes
And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.

2 John 1:7 ESV / 42 helpful votes
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Hebrews 1:8 ESV / 42 helpful votes
But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God?

I did not have enough time to read every verse

Saint Steven · Apr 5, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
Matthew 12:28
But I use the power of God’s Spirit to force out demons, and this shows that God’s kingdom has come to you.

Matthew 12:31
“So I tell you, people can be forgiven for every sinful thing they do and for every bad thing they say against God. But anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Romans 5:5
And this hope will never disappoint us. We know this because God has poured out his love to fill our hearts through the Holy Spirit he gave us.

Romans 8:9
But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:16
You should know that you yourselves are God’s temple. God’s Spirit lives in you.

1 Corinthians 6:19
You should know that your body is a temple for the Holy Spirit that you received from God and that lives in you. You don’t own yourselves.

Christians have God's Spirit living inside us. As such, we experience him. That is how we know the spiritual world exists.

How does any of this refute the position of @JAL ???
Of course the Bible translation SAYS "spirit". That is what he is objecting to.

JAL said: ↑
My position is on this thread is that:
(1) Philosophers convinced the church to believe in a magical immaterial substance called "spirit".
(2) Otherwise the Greek and Hebrews terms would naturally convey material wind/breath to us.
(3) Since matter is the only sure thing, the burden of proof falls on the immaterialists. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary amounts of supportive evidence.
(4) There is no plausible evidence for the translation "spirit".
(5) There is PLENTY of evidence against that interpretation. Specifically there is plenty of evidence that the biblical writers always had in mind wind/breath, for example the title of the Third Person as "The Holy Wind/Breath" (see John 20:22).

JAL · Apr 5, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
Christians have God's Spirit living inside us.

Except as shown on this thread, His name isn't the Holy Spirit/Ghost but the Holy Breath/Wind in accordance with tangible substance. Again:

"He breathed on them, and said, 'Receive the Holy [Breath]" (John 20:22).

Have you ever heard of Thomas Oden? He wrote a VERY unusual Systematic Theology - his goal was to create a list of consensus-positions (all Christian denominations) for at least the first 1,000 years of church history and, in most cases, up till the Reformation. According to Oden, the literal rendering of John 20:22 is "The Holy Breath" - that was the consensus-understanding of professional theologians, for at least the first 1,000 years of the church, no matter what the popular English translations might say. He wrote:

"Jesus himself chose the expression 'Holy Breath’ to designate the Comforter to follow Him (John 20:22)'" ( Thomas C. Oden, Life in the Spirit: Systematic Theology Volume Three (Peabody: Prince Press, 2001, reprint), p. 16)

As such, we experience him. That is how we know the spiritual world exists.

How does that address all my proofs on this thread that (1) The human mind is tangible/physical (2) God is tangible/physical?

You shouldn't just ignore my proofs. Thing is, I don't NEED any proofs because matter is all we know for sure. The burden of proof falls on those who, like you, postulate a magical fairytale known as immaterial substance.

JAL · Apr 5, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God
John 1:14 ESV / 170 helpful votes
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 122 helpful votes
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Colossians 2:9 ESV / 104 helpful votes
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

John 1:1 ESV / 94 helpful votes
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Philippians 2:7 ESV / 85 helpful votes
But made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

John 8:58 ESV / 84 helpful votes
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Hebrews 4:15 ESV / 80 helpful votes
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

John 10:30 ESV / 71 helpful votes
I and the Father are one.”

Luke 2:52 ESV / 43 helpful votes
And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.

2 John 1:7 ESV / 42 helpful votes
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Hebrews 1:8 ESV / 42 helpful votes
But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Christ Fully Man Fully God?

I did not have enough time to read every verse

Relevance? Where have I denied that God became a man?

JAL · Apr 9, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
1 Corinthians 6:19
You should know that your body is a temple for the Holy Spirit that you received from God and that lives in you.

Here's an argument that I formulated many years ago. Regarding the two possible translations:

(1) The Holy Spirit/Ghost as immaterial substance.
(2) The Holy Wind/Breath as material substance.

Option 1 is exegetically impossible because it's a blatant misuse of language. Suppose I used the following words to introduce you to a human family of three:

"I introduce you to the father, the son, and THE HUMAN BEING."

Such language doesn't make sense. Each title should distinguish each member from the others whereas "The Human Being" applies equally to all three. Consider now:

"The Father, the Son, and THE HOLY SPIRIT"

Same problem because the title "Holy Spirit" blurs all distinctions. Isn't the Father a spirit too, and holy? Same with the Son?

Whereas the title "The Holy Breath" distinguishes the Third Person, throughout the Bible, as the effluence of God's nostrils and mouth, sent forth to do His work. Example:

"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the Breath [Pneuma] of his mouth" (2 Th 2:8).

Unconscionably, some English translations force "Spirit" into 2 Th 2:8. That translation seems exegetically impossible because all 100 billion people of human history have known and believed that our mouths exude breath/wind, not immaterial spirits. Scripture is a horrible instructor if it needlessly couches its truths in a context antithetical to all current belief.

Daniel Marsh · Apr 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
How does any of this refute the position of @JAL ???
Of course the Bible translation SAYS "spirit". That is what he is objecting to.

JAL said: ↑
My position is on this thread is that:
(1) Philosophers convinced the church to believe in a magical immaterial substance called "spirit".
(2) Otherwise the Greek and Hebrews terms would naturally convey material wind/breath to us.
(3) Since matter is the only sure thing, the burden of proof falls on the immaterialists. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary amounts of supportive evidence.
(4) There is no plausible evidence for the translation "spirit".
(5) There is PLENTY of evidence against that interpretation. Specifically there is plenty of evidence that the biblical writers always had in mind wind/breath, for example the title of the Third Person as "The Holy Wind/Breath" (see John 20:22).

I am going with those who did translations of the Bible. Context lets them know how to translate a word. A Committee of those from various denominations producing a translation is more reliable than some unknown person saying a word that is translated spirit should not be translated spirit. It still makes more sense to go along with those who produced the translations.

Saint Steven · Apr 9, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
I am going with those who did translations of the Bible. Context lets them know how to translate a word. A Committee of those from various denominations producing a translation is more reliable than some unknown person saying a word that is translated spirit should not be translated spirit. It still makes more sense to go along with those who produced the translations.

When the blind lead the blind, both fall in the ditch. That committee of translators are far from infallible. Just ask them.

A camel is a horse built by committee.

Daniel Marsh · Apr 9, 2021

JAL said:
Except as shown on this thread, His name isn't the Holy Spirit/Ghost but the Holy Breath/Wind in accordance with tangible substance. Again:

"He breathed on them, and said, 'Receive the Holy [Breath]" (John 20:22).

Have you ever heard of Thomas Oden? He wrote a VERY unusual Systematic Theology - his goal was to create a list of consensus-positions (all Christian denominations) for at least the first 1,000 years of church history and, in most cases, up till the Reformation. According to Oden, the literal rendering of John 20:22 is "The Holy Breath" - that was the consensus-understanding of professional theologians, for at least the first 1,000 years of the church, no matter what the popular English translations might say. He wrote:

"Jesus himself chose the expression 'Holy Breath’ to designate the Comforter to follow Him (John 20:22)'" ( Thomas C. Oden, Life in the Spirit: Systematic Theology Volume Three (Peabody: Prince Press, 2001, reprint), p. 16)

I looked at Oden's third volume, here is what is written there:

"This does not mean that insight into the Spirit’s revelation in history is
impossible, but rather that it must listen attentively to its subject’s voice (1
Kings 19:12). “The Spirit is breath. The wind sings in the trees. I would like,
then, to be an Aeolian harp and let the breath of God make the strings vibrate
and sing. Let me stretch and tune the strings—that will be the austere task of
research. And let the Spirit make them sing a clear and tuneful song of prayer
and life!” (Congar, IBHS 1.10).
" ( pg 750 Oden A Systematic Theology).

"God is called the Spirit because the Spirit is as invisible as breath or
wind (pneuma, John 3:8). This One is called “Holy Spirit” because
incomparably holy (Rom. 1:4); and called “the Spirit of God” (Gen. 1:2;
Matt. 3:16) because through his work the truth is revealed; and called “the
Spirit of Christ” (Rom. 8:9; 1 Pet. 1:11) because he is sent by the Son to
empower the Son’s mission to the world (Ursinus, CHC: 271).
These names designate and point to and confirm the deity of the Spirit,
who is nothing less than “the Spirit of the Lord” (Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9), “the
Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead” (Rom. 8:11), “the Spirit of the
living God” (2 Cor. 3:3).
God the Spirit is celebrated as the author of revelation, bestower of truth
(John 14:17), “the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel
and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord” (Isa. 11:2;
cf. Exod. 28:3; Eph. 1:1 7), who empowers grace and enables supplication
(Zech. 12:10; Heb. 10:29)."( 757 Oden)

"Jesus himself chose the silent simile of the “Holy Breath” of the word of
the Lord to designate the Comforter who would follow him (John 20:22).
“Christ breathed the Spirit in a corporeal fashion and thus showed that as
from the mouth of a man comes the corporeal breath, so from the divine
substance in a way that befits it comes the breath that proceeds from it”
(Cyril of Alexandria, Comm. on John 14.16, tractate 9, cf. Letters 55.40-43)."
(page 759)

"There is nothing too subtle or dense for the Spirit to penetrate or too
sinful for the Spirit to cleanse or too weary for the Spirit to refresh or too
dead for the Spirit to breathe life into again. The Spirit strives with us, prays
for us, groans with us (Rom. 8:18–27; Augustine, Hom. on 1 John 8).
New life in the Spirit is offered through the proclaimed and written Word
and enacted in the Sacraments by grace. As the Word is made flesh in the
Son, so the body of Christ is being enfleshed in a real but imperfect measure
in the church through the person and work of the Spirit (Augustine, On
Nature and Grace 38.45)." (760)

"Before and After Pentecost—The Quickening Sequence of Events
Christ had prayed that the Spirit would be a continuing, abiding, indwelling
presence with his own beloved people (John 14:16–17). After repeated
promises of the coming of the Spirit (John 14:17, 26; 15:26; 16:7, 13), Jesus
breathed the Spirit upon his disciples after his resurrection, saying: “Receive
the Holy Spirit” (John 20:22; Chrysostom, Hom.” on John 86.3). The Spirit
was poured in fullness on the whole gathered community at Pentecost (Acts
2:17; Bede, Comm. on Acts 2.17).
" 805

Daniel Marsh · Apr 9, 2021

wife is almost home, good night

JAL · Apr 9, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
I looked at Oden's third volume, here is what is written there:

"This does not mean that insight into the Spirit’s revelation in history is
impossible, but rather that it must listen attentively to its subject’s voice (1
Kings 19:12). “The Spirit is breath. The wind sings in the trees. I would like,
then, to be an Aeolian harp and let the breath of God make the strings vibrate
and sing. Let me stretch and tune the strings—that will be the austere task of
research. And let the Spirit make them sing a clear and tuneful song of prayer
and life!” (Congar, IBHS 1.10).
" ( pg 750 Oden A Systematic Theology).

"God is called the Spirit because the Spirit is as invisible as breath or
wind (pneuma, John 3:8). This One is called “Holy Spirit” because
incomparably holy (Rom. 1:4); and called “the Spirit of God” (Gen. 1:2;
Matt. 3:16) because through his work the truth is revealed; and called “the
Spirit of Christ” (Rom. 8:9; 1 Pet. 1:11) because he is sent by the Son to
empower the Son’s mission to the world (Ursinus, CHC: 271).
These names designate and point to and confirm the deity of the Spirit,
who is nothing less than “the Spirit of the Lord” (Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9), “the
Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead” (Rom. 8:11), “the Spirit of the
living God” (2 Cor. 3:3).
God the Spirit is celebrated as the author of revelation, bestower of truth
(John 14:17), “the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel
and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord” (Isa. 11:2;
cf. Exod. 28:3; Eph. 1:1 7), who empowers grace and enables supplication
(Zech. 12:10; Heb. 10:29)."( 757 Oden)

"Jesus himself chose the silent simile of the “Holy Breath” of the word of
the Lord to designate the Comforter who would follow him (John 20:22).
“Christ breathed the Spirit in a corporeal fashion and thus showed that as
from the mouth of a man comes the corporeal breath, so from the divine
substance in a way that befits it comes the breath that proceeds from it”
(Cyril of Alexandria, Comm. on John 14.16, tractate 9, cf. Letters 55.40-43)."
(page 759)

"There is nothing too subtle or dense for the Spirit to penetrate or too
sinful for the Spirit to cleanse or too weary for the Spirit to refresh or too
dead for the Spirit to breathe life into again. The Spirit strives with us, prays
for us, groans with us (Rom. 8:18–27; Augustine, Hom. on 1 John 8).
New life in the Spirit is offered through the proclaimed and written Word
and enacted in the Sacraments by grace. As the Word is made flesh in the
Son, so the body of Christ is being enfleshed in a real but imperfect measure
in the church through the person and work of the Spirit (Augustine, On
Nature and Grace 38.45)." (760)

"Before and After Pentecost—The Quickening Sequence of Events
Christ had prayed that the Spirit would be a continuing, abiding, indwelling
presence with his own beloved people (John 14:16–17). After repeated
promises of the coming of the Spirit (John 14:17, 26; 15:26; 16:7, 13), Jesus
breathed the Spirit upon his disciples after his resurrection, saying: “Receive
the Holy Spirit” (John 20:22; Chrysostom, Hom.” on John 86.3). The Spirit
was poured in fullness on the whole gathered community at Pentecost (Acts
2:17; Bede, Comm. on Acts 2.17).
" 805

I never said Oden was a materialist. Of course he talks everywhere about Spirit. Nonetheless he wrote:

"Jesus himself chose the expression 'Holy Breath’ to designate the Comforter to follow Him (John 20:22)'" ( Thomas C. Oden, Life in the Spirit: Systematic Theology Volume Three (Peabody: Prince Press, 2001, reprint), p. 16)

JAL · Apr 9, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
It still makes more sense to go along with those who produced the translations.

Even when the Spirit-translation is exegetically impossible, as shown? And even when immaterialism faces, for example, 13 points of incoherence, as shown? And even though immaterialism seems to be a magical fairytale - it's an extraordinary claim - that, as such, requires EXTRAORDINARY amounts of supporting evidence? And instead of finding such evidence in the Bible, we find extraordinary amounts of materialistic passages? For example to read "Spirit" in passages where the context SCREAMS wind/breath? Are you expecting me to be a fool? To take the wisdom of men above the massive amount of evidence in Scripture?

Time and again, Jesus warned us that the Bible scholars are prone to error. Don't you believe in error-checking? Don't you believe that the Reformation was a good thing? Why not more reform today? You seem to be saying, "If the translators came to a conclusion, we should just accept it" - and my question to you is, based on WHAT EVIDENCE? What is the evidence and where does it really point?

Thomas White · Apr 9, 2021

JAL said:
The church father Tertullian (200 AD) was rightly a staunch materialist who realized that all of the biblical data - not just some of it, literally all of it - favors a wholly physical God. In fact the entire exegetical case for an immaterial God is predicated on the blatant, exegetically unsupportable mistranslation of the terms pneuma and ruach (breath/wind) as "spirit", due to the influence of a Platonic philosophy known as The Doctrine of Divine Simplicity (DDS). The term "spirit" is, in a nutshell, an English term unjustifiable exegetically. Moreover the human soul (i.e. the human pneuma) is truistically/tautologically material on an essentially empirical basis - for example Tertullian's tautological argument for the materiality of the human soul has never been refuted.

Understand that I'm a staunch Trinitarian, like Tertullian. In fact:
(1) Tertullian is the first person known to use the word Trinity.
(2) Phillip Schaff, one of the world's foremost experts on othodoxy, considered Tertullian to be one of the best defenders of orthodoxy in church history.

This discussion began on another thread closed at the request of the opening poster. I will copy some of that material, as it pertains to my posts, over to this thread.

Of course He is a physical being. He is also not. He is everything He wants to be. He simply is.

JAL · Apr 9, 2021

Some highlights of what you posted:

Daniel Marsh said:
“The Spirit is breath...." (Congar, IBHS 1.10).
" ( pg 750 Oden A Systematic Theology).

"Jesus himself chose the silent simile of the “Holy Breath” of the word of
the Lord to designate the Comforter who would follow him (John 20:22).
“Christ breathed the Spirit in a corporeal fashion and thus showed that as from the mouth of a man comes the corporeal breath, so from the divine substance in a way that befits it comes the breath that proceeds from it” (Cyril of Alexandria, Comm. on John 14.16, tractate 9, cf. Letters 55.40-43)."
(page 759)

"Corporeal" means material by the way. Clearly the literal rendering of John 20:22 (among other passages) is The Holy Breath, despite how much effort has been made to shove Spirit down our throats. And the thing is, we only need one passage to establish the Third Person's title. It cannot oscillate between Spirit and Breath because His title doesn't change. For example if we read the title "Father" in one passage, we cannot change it to "Mother-in-law" in another passage.

JAL · Apr 9, 2021

Thomas White said:
Of course He is a physical being. He is also not. He is everything He wants to be. He simply is.

That's an incoherent position attempting to stand on both sides of the fence. It's like saying, "Today I couldn't sit on my chair because today it is an immaterial chair."

Again, all we know for sure is matter. Any seeming magical fairytale about immaterial substance is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary amounts of supportive evidence. There is none.

Thomas White · Apr 9, 2021

JAL said:
That's an incoherent position attempting to stand on both sides of the fence. It's like saying, "Today I couldn't sit on my chair because today it is an immaterial chair."

Again, all we know for sure is matter. Any seeming magical fairytale about immaterial substance is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary amounts of supportive evidence. There is none.

It is not incoherent. It is inconceivable. We have no basis for understanding what God is because He has no limits, and we are very limited. The terms we use to define Him are used because we don't know the true terminology. He is the Beginning and the End, the Creator of all the cosmos. Do you think a couple of paragraphs on a small planet amongst many in the vastness of the universe could be enough to capture His essence?

JAL · Apr 9, 2021

Thomas White said:
It is not incoherent. It is inconceivable. We have no basis for understanding what God is because He has no limits, and we are very limited. The terms we use to define Him are used because we don't know the true terminology. He is the Beginning and the End, the Creator of all the cosmos. Do you think a couple of paragraphs on a small planet amongst many in the vastness of the universe could be enough to capture His essence?

We have human minds and, as such, can only think in human terms. If you're saying that God transcends human terms and, as such, is humanly incomprehensible, that spells the end of theology. In that case, you can't justifiably insist on one particular doctrine or another, the right thing to do would be to shut up.

JAL · Apr 9, 2021

The notion that we cannot comprehend God is a Greek myth which is self-defeating theologically. If we cannot, we have no hope.

God Is a Physical Being

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