Paul said he was given the g of the uncircumcision, while Peter was given the Gospel of circumcision

Guojing

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Perhaps you would like to address the NT Scriptures presented which authoritatively teach such.

Assertion without demonstration is without merit.

Once you participate in such bible discussions over the Internet long enough, you will realize this, people rarely change their minds here.

And that is perfectly understandable, once one is able to care enough for a doctrine to be able to type them out in words, they have formed that over many years of reflection.

So it is highly unlikely for people to change their minds just because a stranger over the Internet says something different, at least not until the long run.
 
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Clare73

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Once you participate in such bible discussions over the Internet long enough, you will realize this, people rarely change their minds here.

And that is perfectly understandable, once one is able to care enough for a doctrine to be able to type them out in words, they have formed that over many years of reflection.

So it is highly unlikely for people to change their minds just because a stranger over the Internet says something different, at least not until the long run.
Does that mean you are unable to address the Scriptures presented?
 
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Clare73

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I can explain to you but I won't be able to understand for you, if you don't wish to.
The authoritative NT teaching is quite clear and straight forward. It requires no explanation, only reconciliation of your view with it.
 
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RDKirk

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No, he completely avoided the question of restoring the kingdom to Israel, because it was not for them to know.

They thought he came to restore Israel as it was in the days of David and Solomon, when it was great among the nations. But Jesus came to set up his own kingdom, which was a kingdom of heaven, not to restore the kingdom of Israel, an earthly kingdom.

Having been bred since infancy that the Messiah was to be an earthly king, they would not be able to grasp in a few minutes before his ascension any idea of his kingdom as spiritual, so Jesus did not broach it with them at the time. Besides, they would soon understand with the pouring out of the Spirit, and would have no more thoughts of a temporal kingdom, being filled with the expectation of setting up the gospel kingdom in the world.

Not disputing you, but it's interesting that the thief on the cross seemed to understand this:

"Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
 
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Clare73

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Not disputing you, but it's interesting that the thief on the cross seemed to understand this:

"Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Brought up on the same doctrine as all Jews were.
 
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RDKirk

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Brought up on the same doctrine as all Jews were.

My point was that seeing Jesus on the cross was not an impediment to the thief's belief that Jesus was still going to come to His own kingdom...somehow.
 
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Guojing

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Brought up on the same doctrine as all Jews were.

Can you tell that you are adopting the personal perspective of "All the Jews during Jesus time misunderstood what the kingdom really meant, but I, as a gentile, somehow understood it"?

Are you open to the possibility that you might be the one who misunderstood?
 
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Clare73

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My point was that seeing Jesus on the cross was not an impediment to the thief's belief that Jesus was still going to come to His own kingdom...somehow.
Or that his kingdom was of heaven, not of earth, as Jesus said.
 
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Clare73

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Can you tell that you are adopting the personal perspective of
"All the Jews during Jesus time misunderstood what the kingdom really meant, but I, as a gentile, somehow understood it"?
Well, yeah.

"Hath God (Jesus) said?" (Genesis 3:1)

Do you not know why the Jews misunderstood what the kingdom really meant?

Because of their rejection of Jesus as the Christ, they were judicially blinded by God (Matthew 13:11-16; John 8:47; Acts 13:48)--the decree went forth, the door was shut (Mark 4:12), what they had was taken away (Matthew 13:12)--while the apostles, our teachers in the NT, were specifically enlightened regarding the secret of the kingdom of God (Mark 4:11).
You didn't know that?
Are you open to the possibility that you might be the one who misunderstood?
Not unless you can show me otherwise from NT teaching, which is authoritative from the apostles, including the apostle who received his revelation from Jesus personally, in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-5).
Do you have any source more authoritative than that?

Don't hang this on me, Jesus is the one who said his kingdom was not of this world (John 18:36),
that it was invisible and within (Luke 17:20-21). Take it up with him.

So just what am I misunderstanding here? It's as plain as the nose on one's face.

No reconciling your view to the NT teaching I presented?
 
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Guojing

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Well, yeah.

"Hath God (Jesus) said?" (Genesis 3:1)

Do you not know why the Jews misunderstood what the kingdom really meant?

Because of their rejection of Jesus as the Christ, they were judicially blinded by God (Matthew 13:11-16; John 8:47; Acts 13:48)--the decree went forth, the door was shut (Mark 4:12), what they had was taken away (Matthew 13:12)--while the apostles, our teachers in the NT, were specifically enlightened regarding the secret of the kingdom of God (Mark 4:11).
You didn't know that?
Not unless you can show me otherwise from NT teaching, which is authoritative from the apostles, including the apostle who received his revelation from Jesus personally, in the third heaven
(2 Corinthians 12:1-5).
Do you have any source more authoritative than that?

Don't hang this on me, Jesus is the one who said his kingdom was not of this world (John 18:36), that it was invisible and within (Luke 17:20-21). Take it up with him.

So just what am I misunderstanding here? It's as plain as the nose on one's face.

No reconciling your view to the NT teaching I presented?

Yep I think people can tell you are not open to the possibility.

The 11 spent 40 days with the risen Christ being taught all matters pertaining the kingdom of God in acts 1.

When they ask him that question in acts 1:6, I would trust that they had first hand knowledge of what the ot prophecy said about it.

But if you insist that you understood more than them, well, I can see nothing will change your mind.
 
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Clare73

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Yep I think people can tell you are not open to the possibility.
And how open are you to overturning apostolic teaching received from Jesus himself?

I note you did not deal with the Scriptures regarding the Jews' blindness and ignorance of the kingdom.
The 11 spent 40 days with the risen Christ being taught all matters pertaining the kingdom of God in acts 1.

When they ask him that question in acts 1:6, I would trust that they had first hand knowledge of what the ot prophecy said about it.
Knowing what a prophecy says and knowing what its fulfillment means are two different things, as the apostles learned.

The exile and return of which God spoke in Leviticus 25:1, Leviticus 25:6, Leviticus 26:43-45, fulfilled in Nehemiah--culminating in Nehemiah 8-12, some today are still looking for based on their personal interpretation of prophecy.

The apostles present no such restoration of Israel in their NT teachings.
In fact, the apostle who received his teaching from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven, teaches that Israel's destiny, if they do not persist in unbelief, is to be grated back into the one olive tree of the NT, which goes all the way back to Abraham.
But if you insist that you understood more than them, well, I can see nothing will change your mind.
Not knowing that one with the indwelling Holy Spirit understands more than the unbelieving Jews of Jesus' day who were judicially blinded by God speaks volumes about your understanding of unfulfilled prophecy, which understanding enjoys no support in the authoritative NT teaching of the apostles.

And yes, I insist that I understand more regarding God's revelation than do the judicially blinded by him.
 
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Guojing

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And how open are you to overturning apostolic teaching received from Jesus himself?

I note you did not deal with the Scriptures regarding the Jews' blindness and ignorance of the kingdom.
Knowing what a prophecy says and knowing what its fulfillment means are two different things, as the apostles learned.

Some today look for fulfillment of what has already been fulfilled in Nehemiah, culminating in
Neh 8-12.

The apostles present no such restoration of Israel in their NT teachings.
In fact, the apostle who received his teaching from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven, teaches that Israel's destiny, if they do not persist in unbelief, is to be grated back into the one olive tree of the NT, which goes all the way back to Abraham.
Not knowing that one with the indwelling Holy Spirit understands more than the unbelieving Jews of Jesus' day who were judicially blinded by God speaks volumes about your understanding of unfulfilled prophecy, which understanding enjoys no support in the authoritative NT teaching of the apostles.

And yes, I insist that I understand more regarding God's revelation than do the judicially blinded by him.

You are anticipating revelation, that is why you have the advantage of claiming that none of the 11 at Acts 1:6 understood that Israel would be blinded.

Prior to Israel stoning Stephen, Israel was not blinded yet. Peter was still offering to them the physical kingdom in Acts 3:19-21.

He told Israel that should they repent, God will send Jesus back to Earth to usher them into that promised kingdom where all their sins would finally be blotted out in the times of refreshing.

Yes, we now know that Israel rejected that offer again, and when they finally stoned Stephen, the entire nation has fallen and is now blinded as you said.

But that does not mean we can anticipate revelation and claim that Acts 1:6 was not a legitimate question. It was, Israel had to given a free choice to accept or reject the Holy Spirit when Stephen was preaching to them in Acts 7:55.

That is the reason why Jesus replied to their final question the way he did, that Israel's decision to accept or reject the Holy Spirit, after Pentecost, is still an unknown event, from the 11's point of view.
 
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Clare73

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And how open are you to overturning apostolic teaching received from Jesus himself?

I note you did not deal with the Scriptures regarding the Jews' blindness and ignorance of the kingdom.
Knowing what a prophecy says and knowing what its fulfillment means are two different things, as the apostles learned.

Some today look for fulfillment of what has already been fulfilled in Nehemiah, culminating in
Neh 8-12.

The apostles present no such restoration of Israel in their NT teachings.
In fact, the apostle who received his teaching from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven, teaches that Israel's destiny, if they do not persist in unbelief, is to be grated back into the one olive tree of the NT, which goes all the way back to Abraham.
Not knowing that one with the indwelling Holy Spirit understands more than the unbelieving Jews of Jesus' day who were judicially blinded by God speaks volumes about your understanding of unfulfilled prophecy, which understanding enjoys no support in the authoritative NT teaching of the apostles.

And yes, I insist that I understand more regarding God's revelation than do the judicially blinded by him.
You are anticipating revelation, that is why you have the advantage of claiming that none of the 11 at Acts 1:6 understood that Israel would be blinded.

Prior to Israel stoning Stephen, Israel was not blinded yet. Peter was still offering to them the physical kingdom in Acts 3:19-21.
Not according to the NT record.

Jesus said Israel was blinded during his ministry (Matthew 13:11-13).

Your view is based on denial of the NT record, as well as denial of authoritative NT teaching, such as Romans 11:17-24.
 
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helmut

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As stated in the picture, the gospel preached in Luke 9:6 focused on the identity of Jesus as the Messiah (John 20:31). This gospel was not meant for the gentiles (Matthew 10:5).
And it was preached before the resurrection. After resurrection Peter preached the same Gospel as Paul.

Those are significant differences that one cannot just sweep aside and pretend they do not exist.
Some do not exist, but appear to exist if you read from words not in the original languages. Other differences do not exist at all, as I have shown in my post. Other are the difference between the Gospel before/after the passion and resurrection.
 
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helmut

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That is because, by the middle of his ministry, Israel had rejected him as the Christ already.
The reason why Jesus rejected to become earthly king in Mt 4:10 is that he was rejected by His people? Don't you see what you confidently affirm?

The disciples noticed this change in the middle of his ministry and even asked him why (Matthew 13:10)
So you are talking not about a Gospel to Jews opposed to a Gospel to Gentiles, but of two different Gospels, both preached to Jews.
 
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helmut

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He certainly knew it well enough to quote one of them.
Paul quoted more than one poet. One was, according to rumor, responsible for erecting altars for the unknown gods (the quote is in Titus 1:12).

Such quotes show some learning, but they don't show that this learning was more than superficial. It may have been more, and the verdict of the philosophers in Athens may have been wrong. But we don't know for sure.
 
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helmut

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I see, since you regard all the OT and NT saints as ONE olive tree the church, can I conclude that you don't separate the Body of Christ from the nation Israel?
Israel is God's bride, the church is God's bride.

Can I conclude from your question that you think God is practizing "spiritual polygamy" with two brides?
 
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helmut

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Don't hang this on me, Jesus is the one who said his kingdom was not of this world (John 18:36), that it was invisible and within (Luke 17:20-21). Take it up with him.
A minor point: Lk 17:21 speaks of a kingdom "among" you, Jesus was that kingdom, because he stood "in" (to use Greekish language) the Pharisees when he said this sentence.

But in general, I agree with you.
 
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