Is it Wrong to Call Calvinism Unjust?

Ben johnson

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Also, the notion of 'sincerity' applied to God is bogus. This is one of many things people say that demonstrate a poor understanding of the nature of Omnipotence. It is bad enough that one would try to assess God's sincerity, but no worse than to assess his desire against his ability. (As I've heard one person say, "Well, God didn't really mean for Adam to disobey." I suppose then, he didn't really mean for Christ to die??) What you’re really asking is whether God means what he says. God has no levels of sincerity.
Then why is Rom2:4-11 written, if it’s really GOD who GIVES faith-to-salvation to a few FAVORITES? God doesn’t have favorites! Rm2:11, Acts10:34-35, Col3:25!

The call was real.
No it wasn’t, if it had to come with ENABLING! If someone calls you while KNOWING you’re deaf (and they don’t do anything to make you aware of their calling), they are NOT SINCERE! They know you can’t hear, they are only PRETENDING to call you!

”All day long I hold out My hands to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, following their own thoughts. (Isaiah65:2)
“Sharon will be pasture for flocks, and Achor valley a resting place for herds, for My people WHO SEEK ME. But you who FORSAKE Me, …I will destine for the sword—because I called but you DID NOT answer, I spoke but you WOULD NOT hear, and you did evil in My sight!” (Isaiah65:10-11)


Any part of that unclear? Any part of that fit, ”Oh it’s GOD who gives faith to a few favorites and opens certain ears, we don’t choose faith by ourselves”?

No!!!

Do you deny it?
 
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Ben johnson

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IF any had listened and obeyed they would have been saved. It is simple as that. But they close their ears, and cannot hear until God opens their ears.
Cite the verse where “God opens ears so they can be saved”—what letter, chapter and verse?
You are all over the place with the wisdom - foolishness thing. I can't even get a cogent argument out of it, for me to refute.
It’s not complicated—1Cor1:18, you perceive the Gospel is foolishness to the unregenerated, only after their hearts are sovereignly made-new (mark out Ezk18:30-31!) does it appear “wisdom” so they can believe! Please tell what you do with verse 21—how is it that men believe THROUGH the foolishness of the message? I thought you said it had to CEASE being foolish BEFORE they believed? Can you explain, “through-the-foolishness to save those who believe”? How does one believe THROUGH foolishness? That only works if it is BELIEF that changes it from seeming “foolish”, to “wisdom”!

Doesn’t it?
 
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Ben johnson

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You say all are called effectively --what does that mean? --that all are saved?
No; every last person is called, and that means every last person has the ability to answer or turn away. Any other possibility for Rom10:6-10 with Deut30:11-20? Will you interact with Acts17:26-31? What about Matt22:2-14—ALL were called, but only those who DECIDED to come and change clothes, became “the chosen”—what’s your explanation?

Or only that the calling has an effect. Because it most certainly does have an effect! The Word of God will accomplish that for which it is sent.
Where in Scripture is anyone “not called to salvation”?

Nothing God does is useless or meaningless. But the effect is different for those whose hearts are changed than for those whose hearts remain at enmity with Christ.
Hearts are changed after (and by!) belief. Prove that wrong with Scripture.
I don't get where you find this sort of semi-situation, this twilight zone of not =quite-dead, not-quite-alive.I really don't see how you can believe that God's plan for eternity hinges on the will and choice of fallen man, prior to the work of God.
Again, let’s confine our discussion to Scripture; where is anyone, anywhere, unable to believe and be saved? Acts17:26-31 says every person IS ABLE. Rom2:4-11 says God’s kindness LEADS us to repentance, including those who stubbornly refuse and store wrath for themselves! (Does He lead them to repentance, or not? That’s a yes/no question!)
 
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Ben johnson

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We have repeatedly tried to get across to you the fact that Calvinism does NOT claim the believer does not choose, has no will, does not work, does not repent, does not receive, does not obey.
That’s correct, Calvinists deny that. But Calvinism inescapably ends up with those positions. Follow an illustration—a man walks on a path. He stops at a fork, the left path is labeled “SIN”, the right is labeled “JESUS and SALVATION”; but there is someone in army fatigues standing there pointing a GUN and promising to shoot him if he does NOT take the left fork! Is he FORCED into the wrong choice? Yes!

Now suppose another day there is another man on the same path, but there is no uniformed-thug; but that man’s heart is so dedicated to sin he has no CHOICE but to take the left fork, he is incapable of turning right! Is he FORCED into the wrong choice, just as much as the first man was? YES!!!

It makes no difference who or what is doing the forcing, either a man has “free will” meaning he is CAPABLE of choosing left OR right, or he does not have “free will” at all! Doesn’t matter if someone invents a doctrine like “Compatibilism” which redefines “free will” (so that he supposedly freely chooses, but only in the direction that his sovereignly-deterministic-heart allows)!

That is ludicrous.
I agree. But there it is—“Compatibilism” seeks to connect “determinism” (mankind has no choice, God decided everything long ago) with “free will” (man has the liberty to choose); but the end is ludicrous, a heart that can ONLY choose one thing does NOT have “free will”! Isaiah65 declares God does not PRE-destine, God destines for the sword only after those who WILL NOT listen to Him! And look at Isaiah5:1ff—God planted a vineyard intending for it to bear fruit, but it bore only worthless grapes; therefore God will tear the vineyard down. You think verses like these are just “theatrics”, in the face of all this God REALLY has scripted Israel’s disobedience and rebellion? Is that what’s happening, it’s all theater, all of this “self-directing” is just fake? You won’t like Isaiah, because it doesn’t fit; you have to find some way to stamp it “NOT REALLY”, or to just ignore it. Doesn’t it unnerve you to keep stamping verses, “NOT REALLY NOT REALLY”? No offense.
 
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Ben johnson

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We indeed say all that and more. But to say that God, who is ever alive (seems outrageous we are talking about this!) must wait for the dead to allow him to do what he planned from the beginning makes no sense at all.
You have been cited two passages that plainly say (spiritually) dead men can believe; Rom6:17, and Eph2:5 & 8—WHEN we were dead in our sins we were made alive BY OUR FAITH! You remember, Peter said—“receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation”?

Perhaps the biggest error of Calvinism is to not recognize that "God is love". When Jesus says the greatest commandment is "to love God", Calvinism would have obedience to that command be God's decision. What love is it if the object of our love decides whether or not we love back? "Love cannot demand its own way" (1Cor13:5)—ever. And if God is love, what is He to those He created to be wicked (He "formed them from a blank lump of clay to be wicked-wrath-vessels whom God prepared for destruction before time (before they had done anything good or bad!)—could He still be a "God of love" for most men? In what Universe would He be?

You just read Isaiah 65, and chapter 5; there is zero PRE-destining, but full destining people because they will not listen. Earlier we discussed rebukes like John5:39-47 (Moses spoke of Me, but you refuse to listen to Moses, so how will you listen to MY words?)—and Matt11 (Jesus blasted Chorazin Bethsaida and Caparnaum for having SEEN His miracles, but they were more willfully unbelieving than Tyre, Sidon, or even Sodom—“I tell you it will go better for THEM in the Judgment, than for YOU!”) All of Jesus’ words rebuking people for REFUSING to listen (see Jn8:42, “If God WAS your father then you would love ME!”)—were those rebukes real? Or was Jesus pretending that men had a choice, secretly knowing all along that all His words were only theatrics, God’s approach was REALLY that all the choices were already made? Why would Jesus do all these rebukes? What are the possibilities?

1. Jesus was ignorant of spiritual things, not realizing His Father ordains salvation and gives faith to a few; or He knew He was rebuking men who could not change so He was an idiot (foolish/senseless)?
2. Jesus knew what He was saying, people can respond to rebukes and change (He meant to convict and persuade them towards God)
3. ?

What’s number three, Mark?

I know no one actually has an ink-pad and a “NOT REALLY” stamp—but to pretend the verses aren’t there is the same thing. I’m reminded of a Far-Side cartoon—a little boy and his dad, the dad (his eyes wide) is obviously being held up in the air by his collar by something invisible—and the little boy says, “Big Joe is getting really tired of you saying he doesn’t exist, Dad!” Well, these verses are getting tired of many acting like they don’t exist!

Verses like Jesus’ rebukes, verses plainly stating that every last person is effectively called (Acts17:26-31, 1Tim2:4, Matt22:2-14 and MANY more), verses warning against “falling-from-salvation”—these verses exist, and they aren’t going away. How many people here are “going away”, pretending these verses don’t exist—just to return a week or two later and post the same Calvinistic proof-texts that have been fully refuted from RT? What’s the motivation, Mark?
 
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Brightfame52

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You're right on this. Yet, God is just and justifier of HE WHO has faith in Jesus. Rm3:26. God's justice responds to man's faith.

No one does that, BF. The question separating us is still, "Does God give faith to a few, or does God demand faith from men?" You notice that numerous times I have cited Acts17:26-31 (God puts people when and where they can search for Him and they can find Him, He's not far from anyone; He commands all men everywhere to repent, having furnished proof to all men by raising Jesus from the dead") --- but no one is willing to engage that.

Calvinism/Sovereign-Predestined-Salvation/Reformed-Theology founds on specific things --- first, monergistic heart-change-before-belief is absolutely the basis. 1Cor2:14 was tried to support that (natural men cannot believe in spiritual-things INCLUDING the Gospel because they only see it as foolishness); but 1Cor2:12-13 plainly says a person is taught those things by the RECEIVED Spirit, and "received" 100% denotes salvation (we must believe in Jesus and become saved, receive the Spirit, only THEN does the Spirit teach us the deeper spiritual things that natural men do not get). All 1Cor2:14 teaches is that natural men HAVE NOT believed, in no way does it assert they CANNOT.

Ezk36:26-27 was tried, but the parallel passage 11:18-19 says they remove abominations and detestable things BEFORE getting new hearts (one who has not turned to God does not remove abominations!). And Ezk18:30-31 says "cast away from yourself your sins --- MAKE FOR YOURSELVES a new heart and new spirit, God has no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies so repent and live!"

Recently 1Cor1:18 was tried (the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing); but verse 21 says God is pleased THROUGH the foolishness to save those who believe --- undeniably, "prior monergistic regeneration" would change the Gospel from "foolish" to "wisdom", so in no way could it say "through-the-foolishness"; in absolute terms it is belief that changes the Gospel from "foolish" to "wisdom", in those that believe. See if anyone can deny that there is no way "save-through-the-foolishness" can coexist with "prior-sovereign-heart-change"!

What almost always happens at this point in Calvinistic discussions, is that Calvinists will cease responding, the Scriptures are inarguable. But in a week or even a few days, people will be posting 1Cor2:14, Ezk36:26-27, 1Cor1:18, and many others --- as if nothing of "Sovereign-Predestined-Salvation" has ever been refuted.

Why do you think that is, Brightfame? Why doesn't clear Scripture convince everyone?
:confused:
Thats false. Christs blood satisfied Gods Justice, not mans faith.
 
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Ben johnson

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Well, to be fair, it can be simple ignorance of what Calvinism teaches.
Or, sometimes someone accurately reflects what Calvinism asserts, which Calvinists themselves do not recognize. "Compatibilism" for instance -- Calvinists say men have free will, but only "freely" choose according to their reprobate heart (if sovereignly neglected) or "freely" and irresistibly choose to believe if sovereignly elected. But reality is a heart that can make only one choice, is not free.

...Calvinists deny this...
 
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Mark Quayle

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This has gone on so long I had almost decided not to respond to your repetitious posts, but it has tickled my mind how your posts constantly resemble those of an atheist on another forum on this site. I could probably write an answer to one and use if for both.

But reality is a heart that can make only one choice, is not free.

...Calvinists deny this...

Why haven't you shown me how it is possible to make mutually exclusive choices simultaneously? Only one thing ever is chosen, and all things are caused, (except First Cause). It's an amazing world you posit, where things just somehow magically happen all by themselves.

You somehow think the work (decision) of man is of more worth than God's. Even the Atheists can do that! If you faith is generated by self, and not by God, it is no better than theirs.
 
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Ben johnson

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This has gone on so long I had almost decided not to respond to your repetitious posts,
Nonsense. I put extreme effort (and ruined my sleep last night writing), and cited a large number of verses -- you won't respond to those verses, because you can't and continue with Calvinism.

I cited this:

”All day long I hold out My hands to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, following their own thoughts. (Isaiah65:2)
“Sharon will be pasture for flocks, and Achor valley a resting place for herds, for My people WHO SEEK ME. But you who FORSAKE Me, …I will destine for the sword—because I called but you DID NOT answer, I spoke but you WOULD NOT hear, and you did evil in My sight!” (Isaiah65:10-11)

I cited Jesus' rebukes (like in John5:39-47, Jesus said essentially that they were unwilling to come to Him BECAUSE they refused even to believe Moses; and like Matt11:21-25 where three towns who had seen His miracles --- they are going to be more harshly judged than ancients who had not the luxury of seeing miracles (because the contemporaries were more consciously disbelieving than the wicked ancients!)...)

But you're resolute that God gives faith to a few, and people can only act according to their God-ordained-hearts. Hearts which, in verse after verse after verse with which you will not interact, are changed AFTER belief. Have you ever interacted with Ezk18:30-31? Acts17:26-31?
but it has tickled my mind how your posts constantly resemble those of an atheist on another forum on this site. I could probably write an answer to one and use if for both.

Why haven't you shown me how it is possible to make mutually exclusive choices simultaneously? Only one thing ever is chosen, and all things are caused, (except First Cause). It's an amazing world you posit, where things just somehow magically happen all by themselves.
I do not "posit", Mark; I cite Scriptures. And I mean no offense, you're not open to "God-breathed-Scripture". 2Tim3:16

You somehow think the work (decision) of man is of more worth than God's. Event the Atheists can do that! If your faith is generated by self, and not by God, it is no better than theirs.
I've cited clear verses (like, "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation" --- and verses like where Jesus said "Never have I seen such faith in all Israel! Be it done as you have believed" --- we are not arguing "Ben's opinion" or "Mark's opinion", we are striving to expose what the Apostles taught. But you're clearly not open to those verses.

That's your prerogative. I will still love you, and try to be the best brother I can to you against the day when Jesus returns and we will be family forever.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Nonsense. I put extreme effort (and ruined my sleep last night writing), and cited a large number of verses -- you won't respond to those verses, because you can't and continue with Calvinism.

I cited this:

”All day long I hold out My hands to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, following their own thoughts. (Isaiah65:2)
“Sharon will be pasture for flocks, and Achor valley a resting place for herds, for My people WHO SEEK ME. But you who FORSAKE Me, …I will destine for the sword—because I called but you DID NOT answer, I spoke but you WOULD NOT hear, and you did evil in My sight!” (Isaiah65:10-11)

In spite of your assertion, based merely on the evidence that you don't agree with the take I have shown on a few of the verses you posted, and on the evidence that I haven't answered, verse by verse, the great many more you posted, I have no problem with any of the verses you posted, but with your take on them. I am trying to get out of the habit of repeating myself too often. I am sorry you stayed up late. I have no intention of doing the same just to deal with each verse one at a time.

They are all of a category --God goes indeed love the whole world, but he has particular love for his Elect. His Church. His people. God does indeed call everyone, one way or another, but his call is not the same for one as for another. God does not depend on the will of man to make eternity happen according to plan. God does not NEED anybody. God does not save his Elect as a reward for their faith. Yet somehow you take the necessary action of the regenerated as not the proof of and natural result of the Holy Spirit within them, but the CAUSE of it, quite contrary to Scripture. NOT OF WORKS. But you have found something of which to boast.

Your logic depends on time sequence --I don't know if you realize that. When I say 'after' I mean a logical 'after' --i.e. cause and effect-- time sequence irrelevant. If that's hard to stomach, remember that God is not dependent on time like we are. HE CAUSES ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING --it all proceeds logically from his causing, whether by subsequent causes many degrees separated from what we conceive of as the event of Creation, or by few degrees, or by what we like to call direct intervention.

And no, you've already told me I'm wrong about that, and all you do is repeat yourself trying to explain why you think I'm wrong. Don't bother.

Nevertheless, all the verses that you take to show time-sequence therefore cause-sequence, don't all even show time sequence, but simple interdependence. If we belong to Christ we will have faith, we will repent, we will obey, we will desire him. If they do not belong to Christ they don't even understand any of this, nevermind want to obey or trust him, nor even to be able to do so. They are DEAD.

The verse you put up here is just like the others. Your assumption is that, like the notion that the command implies the ability to obey, the call implies the ability to answer. THEY WILL NOT OBEY. And they will not answer. Yet they are without excuse, though you seem to think they have an excuse. Your presuppositions color your use of every last one of these verses. It is known as eisegesis.

I cited Jesus' rebukes (like in John5:39-47, Jesus said essentially that they were unwilling to come to Him BECAUSE they refused even to believe Moses; and like Matt11:21-25 where three towns who had seen His miracles --- they are going to be more harshly judged than ancients who had not the luxury of seeing miracles (because the contemporaries were more consciously disbelieving than the wicked ancients!)...)

So?? Are you saying that their refusal to believe Moses (for argument's sake assuming your causation there is valid), is not part of their willful enmity with Christ? You have shown nothing.

But you're resolute that God gives faith to a few, and people can only act according to their God-ordained-hearts. Hearts which, in verse after verse after verse with which you will not interact, are changed AFTER belief. Have you ever interacted with Ezk18:30-31? Acts17:26-31?

FWIW our hearts are 'changed' continually, but regenerated once. Belief is many times shown as Faith and vice versa. It is the gift of God. How can one who has been born of the Spirit fail to believe?? You will ask God for more of him --all the elect do, even when they don't understand what happened to them.

I do not "posit", Mark; I cite Scriptures. And I mean no offense, you're not open to "God-breathed-Scripture". 2Tim3:16

You judge for yourself that I am not open to God-breathed Scripture! Nice! And this you decide based on which --that I don't have your take? or that I don't answer what you put up? Like me, you will answer to your own standard.

I've cited clear verses (like, "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation" --- and verses like where Jesus said "Never have I seen such faith in all Israel! Be it done as you have believed" --- we are not arguing "Ben's opinion" or "Mark's opinion", we are striving to expose what the Apostles taught. But you're clearly not open to those verses.

That's your prerogative. I will still love you, and try to be the best brother I can to you against the day when Jesus returns and we will be family forever.

Oh, I agree we are not arguing Ben's opinion! We are arguing hermeneutics, eisegesis vs exegesis. We are arguing Ben's presuppositions! Look at these two you put up here, like they are going to destroy the strawman! They can't even do that! Salvation IS the outcome of your faith! Have I, or Calvinism said different???--NO!! And where does the word say that faith comes from? You have yet to show me how the lost can have salvific faith. If Christ never saw such faith in all Israel, where did that faith come from? From the dead???

I haven't yet seen how you get out of the fact the dead are dead. I've heard you claim they wiggle, though.

"Apart from me you can do nothing!"

Infinity is not increased by adding to it a limited subset.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Or, sometimes someone accurately reflects what Calvinism asserts, which Calvinists themselves do not recognize. "Compatibilism" for instance -- Calvinists say men have free will, but only "freely" choose according to their reprobate heart (if sovereignly neglected) or "freely" and irresistibly choose to believe if sovereignly elected. But reality is a heart that can make only one choice, is not free.

...Calvinists deny this...
You look at this completely backwards, by the way. As before, you suppose Calvinism to make everything automatic, as though man has no part in it. Calvinism doesn't even begin to do that. And no, most Calvinists don't mean by their use of 'free' anything like you do, by 'free will'. In it's merest rendition, compatibilism is only a statement that man does indeed choose, MacBeth style, to do absolutely everything God has in mind for them to do. Really, it is no more complicated than that, though you will try. But I repeat myself. What's the use....?

Infinity is not increased by adding to it.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You have been cited two passages that plainly say (spiritually) dead men can believe; Rom6:17, and Eph2:5 & 8—WHEN we were dead in our sins we were made alive BY OUR FAITH! You remember, Peter said—“receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation”?
AND...... again...... Where does that faith come from???
 
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Brightfame52

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What's false --- that God is just and justifier of he who has faith?
It looks to me you cant keep up with what you are saying. If you dont know what Im talking about its because you arent paying attention to what you posted.
 
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FreeGrace2

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If Arminians or Provisionalists call Calvinism unjust, are they trying to determine what God can and cannot do? I recently saw an individual argue that Dr. Leighton Flowers is judging God when he judges Calvinism, so I decided to make a video about the subject. Let me know what you guys think.
It's wrong to believe Calvinism. It is not biblical, in spite of all the protestations by calvinists who claim it is.

They cannot provide any verse that supports any of their TULIP points.

And there are very plainly stated verses that SAY the opposite of the points of TULIP.

btw, I'm not an Arminian either. My stance on eternal security is even stronger than that of the staunchest calvinist.

Both theologies have large errors in them.
 
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Brightfame52

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It's wrong to believe Calvinism. It is not biblical, in spite of all the protestations by calvinists who claim it is.

They cannot provide any verse that supports any of their TULIP points.

And there are very plainly stated verses that SAY the opposite of the points of TULIP.

btw, I'm not an Arminian either. My stance on eternal security is even stronger than that of the staunchest calvinist.

Both theologies have large errors in them.
Tulip points are Gospel, regardless of what you say. Im sure someone has laid it out for you in order for you to see how.

Jesus teaches Total inability, no man can come to him naturally Jn 6:44,65 !
 
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Mark Quayle

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It's wrong to believe Calvinism. It is not biblical, in spite of all the protestations by calvinists who claim it is.

They cannot provide any verse that supports any of their TULIP points.

And there are very plainly stated verses that SAY the opposite of the points of TULIP.

btw, I'm not an Arminian either. My stance on eternal security is even stronger than that of the staunchest calvinist.

Both theologies have large errors in them.
You believe in Grace? You don't know what Calvinism is.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Tulip points are Gospel
They are not! I have asked you for at least 1 verse that plainly states each point of TULIP, and you have ignored my request.

This proves that there are no verses that teach TULIP.

regardless of what you say.
It's actually regardless of what you say. Your protestations are meaningless when you can't support your claims with Scripture.

Im sure someone has laid it out for you in order for you to see how.
To see "how" what?

Jesus teaches Total inability, no man can come to him naturally Jn 6:44,65 !
There is NO verse that says that man cannot come to Him "naturally". That's just your opinion again.

And you have to ignore John 6:45 which directly follows v.44 in order to maintain your non-biblical claim.

Those who "come to Him" have "listened and learned from the Father."

It's all very clear.
 
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