Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Nathan@work · Apr 4, 2021

imge said:
This only works if you're obeying the laws. As soon as you disobey, you are probably going to get a ticket. Under this scenario there are still laws that apply, they didn't go away. It’s pretty easy when you’re not paying attention, to put a little gas on the pedal and speed without even realizing it. That’s why its always best to be mindful of our actions.

Unless your rightness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees and you're obeying God's laws 100%, the verse below from Jesus's own mouth applies to all of us. If you don't agree, than you are arguing with Jesus.

Mathew 5: 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Which is why Jesus said John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Strangely, these were all stated in the New Covenant, so God's laws did not go away, we know if we have God's Spirit, because we will obey God's laws, its a FRUIT of true faith.

James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

God bless

The fruit of Faith is the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control - there are no laws against these fruits.

Not sure where you get that fruit of the Spirit is in accordance with laws.

There are some spirits out there who’s fruit is in accordance with laws - you do not want to be led my those.

Nathan@work · Apr 4, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I see, so in your view, Jesus says If you love me keep my commandments *John 14:15 (see also John 15:10; Matthew 5:17-20; Matthew 22:36-40 and Matthew 7:21-23) and you say no everyone keeping Gods' commandments are rejecting Christ and His death. Sorry dear friend but for me your teachings and claims here are not biblical. As posted earlier the scriptures teach that no one has God's Spirit if they are breaking Gods' commandments according to John in Paul in Acts of the Apostles 2:38; John in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 14:12 and James in James 2:17-20; 26. Gods' Spirit is the Spirit of the Word of God *John 6:63 that we are saved by *John 8:31-36; John 17:17 as we have faith in God's Word *1 John 5:4. Faith does not abolish God's law as some teach. According to Paul faith establishes Gods' law *Romans 3:31.

I’ve noticed something as of late that those who do not like what I’m saying have now started accusing me.

Not just accusing me of being wrong, but accusing me by twisting what I say as if I said it.

Why? Why be an accuser?

Faith does not abolish anything. Faith replaces the law.

This is why if you are being led by the law, then you are not being led by the Spirit. Only those led by the Spirit are Gods children.

Nathan@work · Apr 4, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
You seem to have a misunderstanding as to what was shared with you earlier. We receive Gods' Spirit when we believe and follow Gods' Word and have repented from our known sins *Acts of the Apostles 2:38; Proverbs 28:13; James 4:17. According to the scriptures we can also grieve or quench Gods' Spirit when we practice sin *Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19. When we receive Gods' Spirit it does not mean that we are fully grown in the knowledge of Gods' grace and his Word. Learning Gods' Word and becoming more and more like Jesus is the work of a lifetime. Being born again *1 John 3:6-9 and receiving God's Spirit *Acts of the Apostles 2:38 is only the beginning of the journey *1 Peter 2:2. Once we are born again we need to take up our cross daily *Mark 10:21 and learn of Him *Matthew 11:28-30 and follow him resisting temptations *Matthew 26:41; 1 Corinthians 10:13; Hebrews 3:8 and endure the trying of our faith. Only those who remain faithful to the end receive everlasting life *James 1:12.

We are dead, in rebellion to what God wants, until the Spirit makes us alive.

We do not do anything to earn the Spirit of God. His work - start to finish.

He will not share His glory with another.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 4, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
You seem to have a misunderstanding as to what was shared with you earlier. We receive Gods' Spirit when we believe and follow Gods' Word and have repented from our known sins *Acts of the Apostles 2:38; Proverbs 28:13; James 4:17. According to the scriptures we can also grieve or quench Gods' Spirit when we practice sin *Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19. When we receive Gods' Spirit it does not mean that we are fully grown in the knowledge of Gods' grace and his Word. Learning Gods' Word and becoming more and more like Jesus is the work of a lifetime. Being born again *1 John 3:6-9 and receiving God's Spirit *Acts of the Apostles 2:38 is only the beginning of the journey *1 Peter 2:2. Once we are born again we need to take up our cross daily *Mark 10:21 and learn of Him *Matthew 11:28-30 and follow him resisting temptations *Matthew 26:41; 1 Corinthians 10:13; Hebrews 3:8 and endure the trying of our faith. Only those who remain faithful to the end receive everlasting life *James 1:12.

Thank you for the detailed scriptures in all your responses, you are a blessing here at CF. It's hard to debate scripture vs opinions and I'm finding it so odd why anyone would be so adamant against the scriptures, especially direct quotes from Jesus. We should all be seeking the Truth, because when Jesus comes, it will be too late and I do believe He is coming soon! God bless.

Nathan@work · Apr 4, 2021

imge said:
Thank you for the detailed scriptures in all your responses, you are a blessing here at CF. It's hard to debate scripture vs opinions and I'm finding it so odd why anyone would be so adamant against the scriptures, especially direct quotes from Jesus. We should all be seeking the Truth, because when Jesus comes, it will be too late and I do believe He is coming soon! God bless.

I, for one, am not against Scripture.

I am against the interpretation of them by some on here.

In the end, it really all boils down to one single commandment that is being talked about. The whole thread was constructed and geared to bring up discussion on that one commandment.

Why not specifically address that one? Why draw out the discussion of it in the manner you have done?

Truth is direct, not indirect.

Leaf473 · Apr 4, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
You seem to have a misunderstanding as to what was shared with you earlier. We receive Gods' Spirit when we believe and follow Gods' Word and have repented from our known sins *Acts of the Apostles 2:38; Proverbs 28:13; James 4:17. According to the scriptures we can also grieve or quench Gods' Spirit when we practice sin *Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19. When we receive Gods' Spirit it does not mean that we are fully grown in the knowledge of Gods' grace and his Word. Learning Gods' Word and becoming more and more like Jesus is the work of a lifetime. Being born again *1 John 3:6-9 and receiving God's Spirit *Acts of the Apostles 2:38 is only the beginning of the journey *1 Peter 2:2. Once we are born again we need to take up our cross daily *Mark 10:21 and learn of Him *Matthew 11:28-30 and follow him resisting temptations *Matthew 26:41; 1 Corinthians 10:13; Hebrews 3:8 and endure the trying of our faith. Only those who remain faithful to the end receive everlasting life *James 1:12.

What I'm hearing is yes, you do believe that we receive the holy Spirit when we are born again. And thank you for your answer.

And then if you're interested in another question,

In your view, what is the difference between walking by the spirit and walking by the Bible. Or is there one?

SabbathBlessings · Apr 4, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Also, do you believe we received the holy Spirit when we are born again?
Or is it bit by bit as we obey?

I believe you can receive the Holy Spirit when born again, but also bit by bit as we obey. For me I had to completely surrender myself to God and was willing to let go of my own will and replace it with His. Bit by bit I receive the Holy Spirit guiding me on cleansing myself. Luckily it has not been all at once. Some things have been easier than others. I just gave up coffee after 20 years of drinking it. That was harder than giving up secular TV. After giving myself over to God I can see how small things I used to overlook are sins and how I need to make those changes.

Leaf473 · Apr 4, 2021

imge said:
I believe you can receive the Holy Spirit when born again, but also bit by bit as we obey. For me I had to completely surrender myself to God and was willing to let go of my own will and replace it with His. Bit by bit I receive the Holy Spirit guiding me on cleansing myself. Luckily it has not been all at once. Some things have been easier than others. I just gave up coffee after 20 years of drinking it. That was harder than giving up secular TV. After giving myself over to God I can see how small things I used to overlook are sins and how I need to make those changes.

Thank you for the nice message!

I think I see it differently. I'm thinking of how Jesus talked about those who believe in him would have rivers of living water gushing up out of them, talking about the Spirit.

Peace be with you!

SabbathBlessings · Apr 4, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Thank you for the nice message!

I think I see it differently. I'm thinking of how Jesus talked about those who believe in him would have rivers of living water gushing up out of them, talking about the Spirit.

Peace be with you!

Is the Holy Spirit is going to tell you everything that you are doing wrong (the sanctification process) all at once?

Also, I find it interesting the way you phrased the question, if you already had some other answer in mind why didn’t you come out and say it or ask that question.

Nathan@work · Apr 4, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Thank you for the nice message!

I think I see it differently. I'm thinking of how Jesus talked about those who believe in him would have rivers of living water gushing up out of them, talking about the Spirit.

Peace be with you!

One thing I remember about my attempted indoctrination of the SDA was the bit by bit transformation they bring out - bit by bit.

The ones who really are given over to the doctrine ‘eventually’ become vegetarian.

Of course, it’s not out of a ‘legalistic’ approach they say - just that all the rules they go by is the way God had intended us to be when He created us.

It was about that time I realized what the doctrine they taught was all about. While they won’t outright say it, they consider sanctification of the flesh a reality.

Their doctrine believes the flesh can be changed - bit by bit - through the control of it by the power of the law.

It is a focus on the flesh, not the heart.

Jesus spoke about this sort of behavior in Matthew 23.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 4, 2021

Nathan@work said:
One thing I remember about my attempted indoctrination of the SDA was the bit by bit transformation they bring out - bit by bit.

The ones who really are given over to the doctrine ‘eventually’ become vegetarian.

Of course, it’s not out of a ‘legalistic’ approach they say - just that all the rules they go by is the way God had intended us to be when He created us.

It was about that time I realized what the doctrine they taught was all about. While they won’t outright say it, they consider sanctification of the flesh a reality.

Their doctrine believes the flesh can be changed - bit by bit - through the control of it by the power of the law.

It is a focus on the flesh, not the heart.

Jesus spoke about this sort of behavior in Matthew 23.

The title of this tread is about removing the laws of God, not SDA. If you cannot stay on the topic I am going to ask that you leave this thread. I’m fine that you have an opposite opinion, but its becoming more and more personal and demeaning, so I appreciate it if you would either stop singling out SDA’s or leave this tread. Thank you.

Nathan@work · Apr 4, 2021

imge said:
The title of this tread is about removing the laws of God, not SDA. If you cannot stay on the topic I am going to ask that you leave this thread. I’m fine that you have an opposite opinion, but its becoming more and more personal and demeaning, so I appreciate it if you would either stop singling out SDA’s or leave this tread. Thank you.

It is only personal because I experienced it personally. I am not speaking of anything I do not have first hand experience with.

I only use the SDA as an example because it was through them I experienced this.

I do not want people to think I am talking about things I do not know.

Have you been apart of other, non-SDA fellowships, that are removing the laws of God? Or are you basing your topic on things you have heard from others?

I have not heard any, that I can remember(the thread is long), say that the laws are being removed. Most all have agreed that the laws show Gods righteousness and to remove them would be to remove His righteous requirements.

No one with Faith in Christ would think such things. Faith upholds the law perfect in Christ. The flesh(our humanity) weakens the law.

Leaf473 · Apr 5, 2021

imge said:
Are you saying the Holy Spirit is gushing out of you all of the time? And the Holy Spirit is going to tell you everything that you are doing wrong (the sanctification process) all at once?

Also, I find it interesting the way you phrased the question, if you already had some other answer in mind why didn’t you come out and say it or ask that question.

Yes, I do think that the holy spirit is gushing out of me all of the time. The holy spirit, of course, is not a feeling.

No, the holy Spirit doesn't tell me everything all at once. Like Jesus told his disciples that he had many more things he wanted to say to them but they couldn't bear them now. So it's step by step, walking with the spirit.

So I think under the new covenant, we receive the spirit without limit. Then the spirit leads us, stop by step. And of course, we can choose to walk by the spirit or not.

I think all of this relates to the idea of why so few Born again Christians keep the Sabbath in something like the SDA way. Though we can choose not to walk in the spirit, I think we are aware of it when we do.

Like it talks about in hebrews, God is careful to correct his children.

***************
Yes, I often do have an idea of what I think an answer is to a question that I am asking you. I ask questions because I think of this as a discussion format. Of course I could simply lob posts at you, and you could throw posts back at me.
But to me, that wouldn't really feel like a good interaction

SabbathBlessings · Apr 5, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Yes, I do think that the holy spirit is gushing out of me all of the time. The holy spirit, of course, is not a feeling.

No, the holy Spirit doesn't tell me everything all at once. Like Jesus told his disciples that he had many more things he wanted to say to them but they couldn't bear them now. So it's step by step, walking with the spirit.

So I think under the new covenant, we receive the spirit without limit. Then the spirit leads us, stop by step. And of course, we can choose to walk by the spirit or not.

I think all of this relates to the idea of why so few Born again Christians keep the Sabbath in something like the SDA way. Though we can choose not to walk in the spirit, I think we are aware of it when we do.

Like it talks about in hebrews, God is careful to correct his children.

***************
Yes, I often do have an idea of what I think an answer is to a question that I am asking you. I ask questions because I think of this as a discussion format. Of course I could simply lob posts at you, and you could throw posts back at me.
But to me, that wouldn't really feel like a good interaction

I agree if you are walking with God you always have His Spirit. The question I thought you asked if we receive God's Spirit leading us away from sin is bit by bit, for me its been bit by bit the Spirit showing me my sins after I surrendered to Him and willing to obey. Acts 5:32, John 14:15-18. The majority of my changes happened all at once after realizing how much I was sinning and not obeying God. But slowing His Spirit has revealed other things to me and I am wanting to make those changes because of my love for God. Maybe some people can make a complete transformation overnight, for me it's been gradual. The good news is when you have God's Spirit and you want to obey Him, He will leads us to the path of righteousness. When we stumble and fall, we have an Advocate with Jesus where we can ask for repentance and true repentance you want to turn away from sin, because of our great love for God.

So do you think the Spirit will lead you to not keeping Sabbath holy and breaking God's 4th commandment?

Leaf473 · Apr 5, 2021

Nathan@work said:
One thing I remember about my attempted indoctrination of the SDA was the bit by bit transformation they bring out - bit by bit.

The ones who really are given over to the doctrine ‘eventually’ become vegetarian.

Of course, it’s not out of a ‘legalistic’ approach they say - just that all the rules they go by is the way God had intended us to be when He created us.

It was about that time I realized what the doctrine they taught was all about. While they won’t outright say it, they consider sanctification of the flesh a reality.

Their doctrine believes the flesh can be changed - bit by bit - through the control of it by the power of the law.

It is a focus on the flesh, not the heart.

Jesus spoke about this sort of behavior in Matthew 23.

That's the sense I'm getting, too.

Believe and be saved, then obey a little bit, receive a little bit. Obey a bit more, receive a bit more.

Reminds me of the passage from Galatians where it says something like having begun in the spirit, will you now be completed by the flesh doing the works of the law?

In SDA thinking, is a person born again, a new creation, all at once?

SabbathBlessings · Apr 5, 2021

Leaf473 said:
That's the sense I'm getting, too.

Believe and be saved, then obey a little bit, receive a little bit. Obey a bit more, receive a bit more.

Reminds me of the passage from Galatians where it says something like having begun in the spirit, will you now be completed by the flesh doing the works of the law?

In SDA thinking, is a person born again, a new creation, all at once?

Why do you keep singling out SDA's or asking a non-SDA about SDA beliefs? This thread is not about SDA, it's about God's commandments. The SDA church did not create God's commandment. God did! He wrote them in stone to be eternal and than wrote them in our hearts in the New Covenant.

I am asking nicely if you can both stay on topic. There are other threads dedicated to SDA and Leif, we have a whole forum if you really want to know something about our beliefs or you can always look at our statement of faith on our church. I appreciate the interest, but I ask you both kindly to not derail this thread.

Leaf473 · Apr 5, 2021

imge said:
The title of this tread is about removing the laws of God, not SDA. If you cannot stay on the topic I am going to ask that you leave this thread. I’m fine that you have an opposite opinion, but its becoming more and more personal and demeaning, so I appreciate it if you would either stop singling out SDA’s or leave this tread. Thank you.

I've been talking about my Christian brothers and sisters who are SDA, too.

It seemed to me that at least in the last couple hundred posts the people who saw things differently than I did were all SDA.

So it's not like any one particular person is being singled out, imo.

We could talk about what laws Christians today might be removing from a Hebrew roots perspective, but that would be a whole different set of laws.

Of course you're welcome to ask me about my personal beliefs and what church I go to. Sometimes it can save time by talking about movements within Christianity.

But sure, we could stick with just what the scriptures say. If we do that, I think the part about a holy convocation is from Leviticus, am I remembering that right? If so, does it still apply to us today, as you read the scriptures?

Leaf473 · Apr 5, 2021

imge said:
I agree if you are walking with God you always have His Spirit. The question I thought you asked if we receive God's Spirit leading us away from sin is bit by bit, for me its been bit by bit the Spirit showing me my sins after I surrendered to Him and willing to obey. Acts 5:32, John 14:15-18. The majority of my changes happened all at once after realizing how much I was sinning and not obeying God. But slowing His Spirit has revealed other things to me and I am wanting to make those changes because of my love for God. Maybe some people can make a complete transformation overnight, for me it's been gradual. The good news is when you have God's Spirit and you want to obey Him, He will leads us to the path of righteousness. When we stumble and fall, we have an Advocate with Jesus where we can ask for repentance and true repentance you want to turn away from sin, because of our great love for God.

So do you think the Spirit will lead you to not keeping Sabbath holy and breaking God's 4th commandment?

Yes, the spirit leads us into righteousness as we walk with him! And it is a step-by-step process, walking.

Then the strange thing that I see is that so few Born again Christians seem to be led step by step into keeping the Sabbath the way those groups that talk a lot about keeping the Sabbath do.

You asked
"So do you think the Spirit will lead you to not keeping Sabbath holy and breaking God's 4th commandment?"

No, I think the spirit will lead me into fulfilling the Sabbath commandment.

Someone may say that the spirit will never lead you into breaking the commandment.
That's true, and that's why I brought up the whole "driving on the Sabbath" thing. The thing is, we can't look at how someone else is earnestly fulfilling the Sabbath and say that they are breaking it or removing God's laws. Or not following the spirit.

That's how it looks to me.
Peace be with you!

pescador · Apr 5, 2021

imge said:
This only works if you're obeying the laws. As soon as you disobey, you are probably going to get a ticket. Under this scenario there are still laws that apply, they didn't go away. It’s pretty easy when you’re not paying attention, to put a little gas on the pedal and speed without even realizing it. That’s why its always best to be mindful of our actions.

Unless your rightness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees and you're obeying God's laws 100%, the verse below from Jesus's own mouth applies to all of us. If you don't agree, than you are arguing with Jesus.

Mathew 5: 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Which is why Jesus said John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Strangely, these were all stated in the New Covenant, so God's laws did not go away, we know if we have God's Spirit, because we will obey God's laws, its a FRUIT of true faith.

James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

God bless

Ah yes! Taking verses of Scripture out of context from three different books from three different authors, written at three different times to prove one's own personal doctrine. And you expect to be believed?

Again, read my signature below carefully, then apply it to yourself.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 5, 2021

Leaf473 said:
I've been talking about my Christian brothers and sisters who are SDA, too.

It seemed to me that at least in the last couple hundred posts the people who saw things differently than I did were all SDA.

So it's not like any one particular person is being singled out, imo.

We could talk about what laws Christians today might be removing from a Hebrew roots perspective, but that would be a whole different set of laws.

Of course you're welcome to ask me about my personal beliefs and what church I go to. Sometimes it can save time by talking about movements within Christianity.

But sure, we could stick with just what the scriptures say. If we do that, I think the part about a holy convocation is from Leviticus, am I remembering that right? If so, does it still apply to us today, as you read the scriptures?

I think those topics on which church you attend etc. can be saved for other threads. I really want to get back on original topic. I am open to going in the direction of what each commandment means, but as the OP I am asking you to not single out any specific denomination. Thanks

Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

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