Anti-christ is a Canadian ?

Is it possible, yes. Is it likely, certainly not.

Timtofly said:

You all leave Satan out of the chapter, yet Satan is the one allowed to do anything. Remember Job? Revelation 12 and 13 are about Satan directly and it mirrors Daniel 11. Except this time, Satan is front and center.

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No, Satan is not left out of chapter 13. He is worshiped in chapter 13. You just have to know how.

The False Prophet has the world make an image to beast (the little horn>Antichrist>beast) person. i.e. the mortally wounded, but healed, head on the beast coming out of the sea.

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


So the people of the world makes the image. A statue image of the beast person. Just like the children of Israel made an image of the golden calf.

It will be lifeless, and likely covered in gold. And placed on the temple courtyard, out in the open where everyone can see it.

Then, the false prophet person does a huge miracle (a lying mircale ) and brings the image to life. But it will actually be Satan incarnating the image - making it appear to come to life. And everyone will be required to worship the image. That's how Satan will be worshiped.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Mike_Tang1991 said:

Hi,

Is it possible the "Antichrist" or "Man of Lawlessness" is a French Canadian-Chinese ?


And what will the Antichrist/Man of Lawlessness do ? Set up a "New World Order" ?

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People often ask the wrong questions.
It is obvious what the behaviour of the beast is.

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
rev 13:5-6

As far as believers are concerned there will be no doubt who and what the beast is.
He does not hide his hatred of God and speaking against him.

Also worship and idolisation is not going to happen behind the scenes, it is the basis of his power, with the mark of the beast declaring loyalty to him, as opposed to the rest who will not follow.

There are some evil individuals and groups who follow the enemy, but that is different from the beast.
What is ironic is how many so called believers called Trump a prophet, chosen by God to bring about His will on earth. They wore his name on their foreheads and chanted his name as the only way for the future of America, black and white. Did it not occur to anyone this is a shadow of the loyalty to the beast and his method of take over.

God bless you

Douggg said:

The False Prophet has the world make an image to beast (the little horn>Antichrist>beast) person. i.e. the mortally wounded, but healed, head on the beast coming out of the sea.

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Premillennialism is one of typical Satan's Eschatology doctrines. This is not what the Word of God says. You are reading into Scripture too much to fit your doctrine. For example, you wrote:

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

So the people of the world makes the image. A statue image of the beast person. Just like the children of Israel made an image of the golden calf.

It will be lifeless, and likely covered in gold. And placed on the temple courtyard, out in the open where everyone can see it.

Then, the false prophet person does a huge miracle (a lying mircale ) and brings the image to life. But it will actually be Satan incarnating the image - making it appear to come to life. And everyone will be required to worship the image. That's how Satan will be worshiped.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

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A "lifeless" covered in gold will suddenly become "alive" and able to miraculously speak that everyone understands and forced to worship?!

Boy...You need to learn to read with the rest of Scripture and find out exactly what image God is actually talking about here. The image will NOT be something physical making with a stone and covered with gold. Do you realize that there is an image of Christ that we worship in Scripture?

Colossians 1:14-15

• "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
• Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

Revelation 16:2

• "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

See? Whether it is the image [eikon] of Christ or the image [eikon] of the beast, it is signifying the representation or likeness of that thing. For example, Scripture tells us Christ is the exact "image" of God. If we worship Christ, we are worshipping God. Likewise the "image" of the beast is that which represents or is a likeness of Satan. So how did the Elect worship the image of Christ? Is not holding to the Word, in Spirit, and Truth? So how will the enemies worship the image or that which is like Satan? Colossians 1 tells us Christ is the image of God, and it is just to worship that "image." The beast is the image of Satan, and it is unrighteous to worship that image.

By the Spirit, true believers are conformed to God's image. Therefore, the likeness or image of the beast is what ALL the wicked by nature conform to! Selah! By nature they worship him because they are ruled over by him as we, Elect, are ruled over by Christ, and they are slaves to him. Receiving the mark, name or number of the beast signifies professing servants of God have gone into apostasy, a falling away of God's people to the abominations taking place in the holy place. Why, because they worshipped Satan's image! Not made of stone or gold! It is HIS LYING DOCTRINES, a sign and wonders that opposite the Truth!

Matthew 24:15-16

• "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
• Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

Those who refuse flee the unfaithful congregation where False Prophets and Christ are taking control and coming with the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders (false doctrines) are the ones deceived and marked of Satan's carnal congregation (the beast) as that is "signifying" they belong to him. That is all! It is not a physical mark, physical statue, or physical temple. The mark is SPIRITUAL to signify who belongs to God or Satan.

Just as God of Old Testament marked His people in the forehead in the midst of abominations in His holy city "signifying" they belong to Him. God was painting a spiritual picture for us that we might compare Scripture with Scripture and come to the truth of the matter. Today's church really needs to ask itself this pertinent question. Are they of the likeness of Him who represents love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness and temperance--or are we worshiping Satan who represents greed, unfaithfulness, hatred, uncleanness, lust, idolatry, spiritual drunkenness, envying and murder? What image is really beloved and do they really worship? What spirit are they really in? Is it that of Christ in obedience or is it really that spirit of the adversary in disobedience (Ephesians 2:2)? Are we enamored with the kingdoms of this world (Romans 12:2), or the world to come (Mark 10:30). For example, are they willfully divorce their spouse and marry others in the church? Do they allow women to be pastors of the church? Are they having entertainment with loud concerts and light shows? Are they teaching that God wants us to have the best life now? They bring politics into their congregations. Are they paying pastors for physical healings, etc. etc. That determines who we worship, serve and whose image we seek after.

Matthew 4:8-10

• "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
• And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
• Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Satan is offering the SAME TEMPTATION to us today, and we either are drawn to or adapt to his image or Christ's. For just as true believers, as servants of God, are conformed to the image [eikon] or likeness of Christ (Romans 8:29) to worship him, so in this same way the servants of Satan (the pseudo or anti-christ) are conformed to his image [eikon] or likeness to worship him.

Sadly, people like you are thinking that people will be literally worshipping a statue, but as we worship the Lord in spirit and truth conforming to His image, so the wicked worship Satan in spirit and lies, conforming to his image. We all either serve one master or the other, there is no in-between or gray area! If we are opposed to the doctrines of Christ and replace him with the image of Satan, we are serving the beast and are conformed to worship his image! Get it?! Just as we have the name of Christ as Christian spiritually upon us as His children, they have the name of the beast spiritually upon them as children of the Devil. Just as we are marked of God unto salvation, so they are marked of the beast unto damnation.

Ezekiel 9:4

• "And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof."

There is nothing new under the sun saith the preacher. Even as God marked His servants of the Old Testament who cried over the abominations of His people in the physical holy city as an example for us today. Because the faithful in His congregation today are spiritually marked in their forehead illustrating they are the true servants bought with a price by Christ. Likewise, Satan spiritually marks his own, where they become his children, with his name or moniker and number. The image of the beast is a portrait of the "exact opposite" of the body of Christ, the Temple of Christ, the image of Christ. We worship in either one likeness or in the other. We are under one "representation" of one kingdom or the other. The Kingdom of Christ or the kingdom of the beast.

So then, I believe that the image of the beast signifies being "like" Satan, as those who don't worship Christ or who don't conform to His image, worship and conform to the antichrist image. The beast from the bottomless pit is the spirit of evil, the likeness of Satan, whom the unfaithful worship. Since the world lost are already in Satan's camp with his mark, Satan is trying to force everyone WITHIN GOD'S CONGREGATION, to receive his mark in order to buy or sell HIS DOCTRINES among themselves! This is WHY God allows Satan to do it as a judgment against those who do not love the Truth. Can't you see it?!

This is the Image of the Beast 101 lesson for you! If you do not see this truth and believe there will be a physical object set up in front of the physical temple in Jerusalem someday for people to worship, then you may be one of those who are deceived (marked) by Satan because you believe his lie.

Praying for you.

I knew rhere was a reason I didnt trust Trudeau.

Like a Canadian Joel Osteen......

Antichrist = anyone against Christ including the liberal scholar who denies Him

The Beast = political leader

JM said:

Antichrist = anyone against Christ including the liberal scholar who denies Him

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Correct.

Antichrist = any and every man, woman, and child with the spirit of antichrist. This is how God sees every individual, for there are many of them.

The Beast = political leader

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Incorrect.

Beast = A spiritual body of antichrist above with Satan as their leader! Not one man with supernatural or political power. Just as we, the Elect, are part of the body of Christ. One body of many. Beast v.s. Christ.

Psalms 2:2-4

• "The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
• Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
• He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision."

Selah!

Satan is thee beast, ruling through men, who are as beasts. Just as Satan is thee antichrist, ruling in many antichrists, which are men. There is a principle here that you are missing in your misinterpretation of scripture. Why does God call wicked men serpents, and calls Satan the serpent? Why is Christ called the Star, and we, His servants, called stars? Therefore, the beast simply means a body of antichrists who were fighting with us and Paul all day long.

1st Corinthians 15:32

• "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."

Did He wrestle with a physical bear, spar with a physical lion, or tangle with a physical leopard? No, his fight was with men who were "as beasts." Why? Because they were without moral values, judgment, knowledge, or Godly wisdom. That is God's definition of the beast!

If I might digress for a minute. What separates man from the dumb beasts of the field is his reasoning and intelligence. A man was created in the image or likeness of God so that (unlike dumb beasts) man was instilled with a certain intellect, reason and the inherent knowledge of His creator. Beasts have no reasoning, they have no knowledge, and they are not sensible. God often contrasts man with the beast and even labels man a beast himself when he acts foolishly or without reasoning, or in a ravenous or vicious way. God even goes so far as to speak of man as a beast when illustrating man as unknowledgeable or simple (stupid, if you will). Remember Nebuchadnezaar? God is showing us a spiritual picture of a foolish man. So the symbolism of a beast in Revelation is to illustrate men under influence of Satan acting without reason or knowledge of Truth, or when lacking in wisdom and understanding, as one acting foolishly. For example:

Psalms 73:22

• "So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee."

Apparently, God thinks as foolish as King David was, he was an indeed ignorant man and is seen "AS" a beast.

Therefore, the beast of Revelation 13 has nothing to do with a political leader or a man coming with supernatural power. But a body of unprofessed Christians attacks the church because they hate the truthful testimony of Two Witnesses (True Elect) therein. They have replaced the Truth with their compromised gospel. They are able to wage spiritual war against the Elect for the control of the Church, and to overcome them, and kill them (silence their truthful Testimony) in the congregation, the great city on this side of the Cross so that she has become the home of the devils. The truth gradually has been removed from the midst. Selah!

Rev 11:7-8
(7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The body of false prophets and christs receive power from the Dragon so they can overcome the truthful testimony of the Elect with signs and lying wonders (false doctrines/compromised gospel). This is the beast the Lord spoke of.

Douggg said:

In Ezekiel 28:16-19, Satan will be revealed physically, after being cast down to earth.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.



Satan will be cast down to earth from (the second) heaven in Revelation 12:7-9. Having a time/times/half time left.

In Revelation 13:4 the world worships the dragon.

In Revelation 13:15 the world woships the image of the beast.

In Ezekiel 28:18 God brings a fire in the midst of Satan, turned to ashes.

When all those things are put together, the false prophet has an image made of the beast person, who will be backed by Satan. The image will be a statue and placed on the temple mount, out in the open in plain site, lifeless. It will be the abomination of desolation, and will be the signal for the Jews in Judeah to flee into the mountains to save their lives.

As they are fleeing, the two witnesses are battling with the beast in Revelation 11, until he finally overcomes them and has them killed.

That will be the last straw for God, and He has Satan and his angels cast down to earth, the final enactment to destroy Satan and his mystical kingdom of Babylon the great.

Cast down to earth, knowing he has but a little time left, Satan is a terror.

He incarnates the statue image, making it appear to come to life, and speak. The false prophet demands that everyone worship the image or die for refusing.

The world is plunged into the great tribulation for 1335 days until Jesus returns. At Jesus's Return, the statue will be melted to ashes in the presence of Jesus. And Satan will be exposed there on the temple mount.

A lone angel will descend, bind Satan with a chain, and Satan cast into the bottomless pit. Revelation 20:1-2. Satan will be physically visible to everyone that day.

And we are on the verge of those things happening.

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Dougg: << In Ezekiel 28:16-19, Satan will be revealed physically, after being cast down to earth. >>


Most “literalists” or whatever I discuss with say that Satan is cast out in Ezekiel 28, but this happened long ago, before God created the world. Now you’re saying that it is a prediction of the future.

Dougg: << Satan will be cast down to earth from (the second) heaven in Revelation 12:7-9. Having a time/times/half time left. >>

Again, most of the “literalists” I discuss with say that this is the Fall of the Rebel Angels, which happened before God created the world. Now you’re saying that it is a prediction of the future.

Ezekiel 28 obviously refers to the fall of the King of Tyre. In the Catholic legend, or Jewish-Catholic legend, of the Fall of the Rebel Angels, Satan’s sin is pride. What does this chapter actually say?

Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned.
--from Ezekiel 28:16

So “widespread trade” leads to violence. That sounds like greed to me, not pride.

The notion that Ezekiel 28 refers to Satan partially comes from the mention of the “mount of God” in verses 14 & 16. The “mount of God” is taken to mean that Satan was in heaven with God. This isn’t plausible.

From Zondervan’s NIV Bible Commentary on the Old Testament:

<< The “holy mountain of God” is never used in Scripture to mean heaven, which would have to be its interpretation if the king of Tyre is identified with Satan. >>

Instead: << The phrase “holy mount” is consistently used to describe Jerusalem and/or Zion as the central place of worship ... >>

In Ezekiel 28:13 NIV: “ Ez. 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God … ”

The trouble is, this may not mean, probably doesn’t mean, what it appears to mean at first glance.
Does the mention of Eden help us choose between whether the passage tells of Satan or the King of Tyre?

Zondervan Bible Commentary on the Old Testament:

<< This individual was also declared to have been in “Eden, the Garden of God. The word “God” could refer either to the true God or to a god. “Eden” may refer to the Paradise described in Ge 1-3. It probably is a simile to portray the splendor of a given geographical area, its most common use. >>

The “God” here may be the Hebrew God or simply a pagan god, and the mention of Eden could simply mean that this earthly king has a well kept garden in his palace.

Zondervan’s commentary on Ezekiel 28 concludes:

<< The most logical and expected understanding of this section is to see it as Ezekiel’s funeral lament for Tyre’s king. >>

Douggg said:

Ezekiel 28:16-19, figuratively speaks of Satan as the king of Tyre. Tyre is not Babylon. Tyre was a city state on the island of Tyre (until Alexander connected it to the mainland).

Ezekiel 28:1-10, figuratively speaks of the little horn/Antichrist/beast person as the prince of Tyre.

A prince is the son of the king. Implying the figurative saying regarding the prince as "son of hell" "son of perdition".

Satan is figuratively the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14, beginning in v12. Then in v15-16, it switches to the little horn/Antichrist/person being brought down to hell. The person in 2Thessalonians2:3 is called the son of perdition. Which another time in the bible referred to Judas, who Satan entered to carry of the betrayal of Jesus.

From that, it appears that Satan will enter the Antichrist person to carry out the act of betrayal to the Jewish people when he goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood. His act previously recorded in Ezekiel 28:1-10.

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

It goes back all the way to Genesis, when Satan through the serpent, claimed that Adam and Eve could become like God, i.e. gods themselves.

The little horn person in Daniel 8 rises to power, by craft, not his own power. In Jewish mysticism, Kabbalah, there is the belief that a person can direct the angels to accomplished the adepts goals and agenda. It is a dangerous practice because it can go array. There is a story about the rise and fall of Rabbi Joseph Della Reina, who attempted to bring in the messianic age, by binding up the Samael and Lillith. But the rabbi made a mis-step and ended up going off the deep end, ultimately drowning himself.

The story is on the internet, by a google search, on the rise and fall of Rabbi Joseph Della Reina, if you want to read about it. (oops, I just tried and could not open the blog site - I think it was taken down dreamingofmoshiach.blogsp...oseph.html Oh, it did finally come up, it took several minutes to load.)


Since then, to practice Kabbalah, Jews are required to be 40 years old and married.

Anyway, the little horn person gets involved with Satan, and that is the beginning of his end. Daniel 8:

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

In Revelation 13, the person receives his power from the dragon, Satan.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

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Dougg: << The little horn person in Daniel 8 rises to power, by craft, not his own power. In Jewish mysticism, Kabbalah, there is the belief that a person can direct the angels to accomplished the adepts goals and agenda. It is a dangerous practice because it can go array. There is a story about the rise and fall of Rabbi Joseph Della Reina, who attempted to bring in the messianic age, by binding up the Samael and Lillith. But the rabbi made a mis-step and ended up going off the deep end, ultimately drowning himself.

The story is on the internet, by a google search, on the rise and fall of Rabbi Joseph Della Reina, if you want to read about it. (oops, I just tried and could not open the blog site - I think it was taken down dreamingofmoshiach.blogsp...oseph.html Oh, it did finally come up, it took several minutes to load.)

Since then, to practice Kabbalah, Jews are required to be 40 years old and married.

Anyway, the little horn person gets involved with Satan, and that is the beginning of his end. >>



Dougg, you absorb too many contradictory ideas from too many different sources. I suggest a more critical eye.

Timtofly said:

Then you explain to me the words of Jesus in John 3. Jesus was speaking in symbols. I doubt you will find one symbolic free verse in the Bible to represent your "anything goes" approach to life.

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John 3 is a whole chapter, how can I explain it to you, here? Also, I do not claim to know the exact meaning of all verses in the Bible.

The point is that the book of Revelation is obviously its own genre, everything there is symbolic. While the gospels of Mark, Matthew, John and Luke are historical records. Different genres. It does not mean that they do not contain for example parables which Jesus gave to people while teaching about the imminent kingdom of God.

Timtofly said:

The whole of current creation from the first 6 days until now.

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That is not my definition at all.

Douggg said:

There are a lot of people who wrongly treat it like that.

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Sure. Which is not worse than treating it like "it means the EU".

Dale said:

Most “literalists” or whatever I discuss with say that Satan is cast out in Ezekiel 28, but this happened long ago, before God created the world. Now you’re saying that it is a prediction of the future.

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Satan and his third of the angels were booted out of the third heaven eons ago. Satan and his angels realm to freely roam is the second and first heaven. The cosmos and earth.

Satan will be cast down from the second heaven in Revelation 12:7-9, restricted to earth. Satan and his angels's mystical kingdom (not a physical kingdom, like the Israel, the U.S., the EU, etc.) is metaphorically called Babylon the Great.

In Revelation 18, Babylon is fallen is fallen is referring to Satan and his angels being cast down to earth - as God during the second half of the seven years begins a process of dismantling Satan's kingdom.

Timtofly said:

And those who place it onto 1st century news papers are not any different than 19th, 20th, and 21st century newspapers. Have you seen all the over complicated charts of 1st century preterist? Just because you may not have one, does not mean they are not out there. There is no result in the past either. Satan was not revealed in the first century, nor had the Gospel reached 21st century humanity.

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Doesn't matter. There are people who just grew a fanaticism over the "end of the world" and give out all these nonsense conclusions because of thinking a symbolic book is to be taken literally.

You'd think, the Bible and Revelations being over or almost 2000 years published wouldn't it be almost like a clue/guideline for satan not to follow seeing how it is a big "spoiler alert"?

Cis.jd said:

Doesn't matter. There are people who just grew a fanaticism over the "end of the world" and give out all these nonsense conclusions because of thinking a symbolic book is to be taken literally.

You'd think, the Bible and Revelations being over or almost 2000 years published wouldn't it be almost like a clue/guideline for satan not to follow seeing how it is a big "spoiler alert"?

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Satan seems to be one who points out the futility of taking God's Word literally. That is how he decieved Eve. Should we take knowing good and evil as literal, or just some symbolic wisdom? Satan does not have to do much. He just wants the church to do nothing. Seems most agree with him, and choose not to take God at His Word, but excuse themselves from the narrative as being something hard to grasp.

daydreameranastasia said:

This. I highly doubt the Jews will consider a French Canadian-Chinese as their messiah.

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Believe it or not, there are French Canadian Jews (as well as Anglophone Quebecker Jews, like, for instance, William Shatner), and also a small minority of Chinese Jews (presumably related to the ancient Church of the East, which spoke Syriac and existed throughout the Far East, including China, as well as the Manichaeans; unfortunately the Church of the East outside of Mesopotamia and India was the victim of a genocide by the Muslim warlord Tamerlane).

That said, I am by no means endorsing the idea of a Sino-Quebecois antichrist. I am extremely opposed to attempts of people to predetermine the ethnicity of the antichrist; for example, the writers of Left Behind decided their antichrist would be Romanian, so as to be named “Nicolae” presumably because they did not know who the Nicolaitans were (actually a perverted Gnostic sect founded by Nicolas, one of the seven deacons ordained in Acts, who is not to be confused with the pious confessor, St. Nicholas of Myra, a fourth century bishop who was tortured by Emperor Dicoletian and who famously slapped the heretic Arius at the Council of Nicea, which caused him to be briefly defrocked by Emperor Constantine, before being pardoned by the other bishops at the council, as the canon law of the early church strictly forbade clergy from physically striking people in most, probably all, circumstances).

I found the Nicolae character particularly offensive as I am friends with many extremely pious Romanian Orthodox Christians by that name. And his last name “Carpathia” was monumentally stupid, as that is not even a real Romanian last name, as far as I am aware.

Douggg said:

Satan and his third of the angels were booted out of the third heaven eons ago. Satan and his angels realm to freely roam is the second and first heaven. The cosmos and earth.

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Sigh...

Do you think God was talking about angels with feathered wings or bat wings here? Or do you compare Scripture with Scripture that the word angel means messengers. Have you ever think for a second that it is men, women and children as the messengers of God or Satan?

Satan will be cast down from the second heaven in Revelation 12:7-9, restricted to earth. Satan and his angels's mystical kingdom (not a physical kingdom, like the Israel, the U.S., the EU, etc.) is metaphorically called Babylon the Great.

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That is silly speculation without a biblical warrant. @dougg. Revelation 12 did not say anything about "second heaven" or "mystic kingdom" here. God is talking about the kingdom of heaven that His congregation on Earth represents. And the messengers of the kingdom of heaven on Earth are either Old Testament Saints or New Testament Saints depending on the context. You are watching too many angels movies.

Rev 12:7-9
(7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
(8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Michael is Jesus Christ. His messengers are His believers, whether it is the old testament congregation or new testament congregation. Per context in Revelation 12, the Old Testament congregation fell with Satan and his messengers (professed Jews) cast out with it at the Cross. Please read carefully what happens next:

Rev 12:10-11
(10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The salvation comes after Christ's victory at the Cross. The old testament congregation fell and in three days the new testament congregation rebuilt with people overcome by the blood of the lamb. It happened at the Cross. Not "eons ago."

In Revelation 18, Babylon is fallen is fallen is referring to Satan and his angels being cast down to earth - as God during the second half of the seven years begins a process of dismantling Satan's kingdom.

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Misapplication of Scripture. Since the Old Testament Congregation already fell at the Cross with Satan cast into bottomless pit by Christ (Revelation 20) so that Christ could build his New Testament Congregation, He is talking about His unfaithful New Testament congregation here. She is Babylon the Great. Nowhere in Revelation 18 talked about the casting of Satan and his angels here. They already cast into a Bottomless Pit by Christ at the Cross. See, the New Testament congregation, after their faithful testimony the whole New Testament period, has become apostasy and desolation BECAUSE this is when Satan and his angels (false prophets and christ with spirit of antichrist) coming out of the bottomless pit and deceive people once again.... this time with New Testament Congregation where she has become the home of those enemies as a judgment of God!

TribulationSigns said:

Michael is Jesus Christ.

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Says who? (Other than Adventists / EGW)

The Liturgist said:

Says who? (Other than Adventists / EGW)

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God, if you carefully studying HIS WORD yourself. Not traditional Christian church system of belief, false teachers, or church cult leaders.

If you want a good Bible study on archangel Michael with all related verses, here you go.

Timtofly said:

The beast is an image that comes to life by the breath of Satan. This image that comes to life is placed in the Temple. Satan is seen by all the world bringing this beast to life. Point that out in the first century and you have the text of Revelation 13.

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The assumption here is a literal image coming to life, the very nature of the Apocalypse insists on non-literal, figurative meaning to the symbols of the text.

However, it's well documented that in Roman antiquity the worship of the emperor--including the worship of his image--became a staple of Roman state religion. And refusal to participate in the Roman public rites such as this was frequently the cause of persecution.

Christians were rarely imprisoned or killed for their beliefs; it was their refusal to participate in Roman public rites, public religious life in Rome, that got them in trouble. That's why the accusations against Christians involved things such as the charge of atheism, or being an "enemy of humanity". Christians were charged with atheism (same with Jews) for their rejection of the Roman gods. Christians were accused of being enemies of humanity because their non-participation in Roman public religious life made them perceived as rabblerousers, troublemakers, breakers of the peace. It was bad enough that they didn't worship the gods or burn incense before Caesar, but they actively preached against doing these things, encouraging Romans to turn away from Roman religion and become Christians.

Christians were targeted politically.

Hence under Decius later on, while the intent was not necessarily to target Christians, the law requiring the libellus, a certificate of loyalty indicating that one had performed the public rites, resulted in widespread persecution. As it was required to have a libellus in order to so much as buy or sell in the market, and thus Christians were accused of lacking patriotism, and of disloyalty to the empire.

These things are a matter of historical record.

-CryptoLutheran