Jesus and the 'sinful' Nature?

Carl Emerson · Apr 2, 2021

Andrewn said:
No I don't believe that. Would you plz explain what you have in mind?

I don't believe each life starts with a clean slate.

How else would the prayers of parents and grandparents have any effect?

Similarly the curses from the behaviours of ancestors can be inherited.

So we inherit the curses and blessings of past lives including Adam at conception.

Have you never heard testimony of, for example, accident proneness being prevalent in previous generations being broken off the present generation?

Andrewn · Apr 2, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
I don't believe each life starts with a clean slate.

Eze 18:1 The word of the Lord came to me:
2 What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, “The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge”?
3 As I live, says the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.
4 Know that all lives are mine; the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is mine: it is only the person who sins that shall die.

The Spirit goes on explaining this in the rest of the chapter.

Carl Emerson said:
How else would the prayers of parents and grandparents have any effect? Similarly the curses from the behaviours of ancestors can be inherited. So we inherit the curses and blessings of past lives including Adam at conception.

What you mean in the 1st sentence is not clear to me. But generally, the effects of blessings and curses can be exhibited in the following generations through their material and psychological effects, not through genetic inheritance. For example, one may experience the effects of their parents wealth or education or friendships, and the opposites of these would be poverty, lack of education, abuse, etc.

Carl Emerson said:
Have you never heard testimony of, for example, accident proneness being prevalent in previous generations being broken off the present generation?

The concept of accident proneness has had a long and controversial history. Statistical evidence clearly demonstrates that different individuals can have different rates of accidents from one another. The studies have revealed that educational background or study experience is the key factor of concentration capability.

Accident-proneness - Wikipedia

Everything I wrote is about physical and psychological explanations. But you seem to have spiritual explanations in mind.

There could be spiritual forces beyond my understanding. And I'm interested in hearing your experience.

Andrewn · Apr 2, 2021

Guojing said:
So if that is the case, are we righteous because we did righteous acts, or are we imputed with Christ righteousness when we believe what he did at the cross, according to the 2nd half of Romans 5:12-19?

This is a big subject

.

"Imputation is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language (1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty; (2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and (3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins."

Imputation Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

From the above definition, it seems that 'imputation' as a theological concept means that something that is not deserved and not earned is nevertheless reckoned or added up to a person's account. Is this really a biblical understanding?

The word 'imputation' is not in the Bible but the verb translated 'to impute' in the KJV occurs 41 times in the NT. This Gr verb is 'logizomai' simply means 'to consider' or 'to regard' (also 'to be considered' and 'to be counted') as can be seen from the following word search:

G3049 - logizomai - Strong's Greek Lexicon (NASB95)

It's clear that the Bible does not give something belonging to one person to another undeserved person. The concept of 'imputation' is not biblical.

Guojing said:
So by that definition, by Romans 4:4-5, you would have to say we cannot be imputed with Christ righteousness right?

Correct.

Nathan@work · Apr 2, 2021

Guojing said:
So by that definition, by Romans 4:4-5, you would have to say we cannot be imputed with Christ righteousness right?

After all, we did no work to earn it.

Correct, we do nothing to earn it, we inherit it by way of the new birth - becoming children of God.

Guojing · Apr 2, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Correct, we do nothing to earn it, we inherit it by way of the new birth - becoming children of God.

But earlier you said

We are imputed His righteousness when we are born again - into His body - not based on anything we do.

Have you changed your mind?

Nathan@work · Apr 2, 2021

Guojing said:
But earlier you said

Have you changed your mind?

It depends on how you look at it.

From our perspective, we do not 'earn' His righteousness - we inherit it.

From His perspective, He 'earned' our righteousness for us - God imputes it to us.

Eloy Craft · Apr 3, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
First off - thanks to all participating in this discussion...

I wonder if the issue of man coming under the curse of the fall might help to explain being born in a sinful condition.

Frankly I am exploring these issues not presenting some denominational line.

I am learning like everyone else and learning will never end.

Thank God we are not all required to think the same way or be put to death...

I might add that I am unaware of certain branches of Christianity finding repentance and making a public apology for such hideous acts.

Whatever the theology we settle with, there should be conformity with certain fundamentals - God is Loving and just - God wants intimate fellowship with us - God is supreme yet accessible. Jesus demonstrated God's nature - Jesus invites us into eternal fellowship - Jesus was resurrected in the flesh - God's Spirit indwells believers by faith and works His good purpose through us. (this is not an exhaustive list)

He has provided his Word through scripture which can only be understood by the faithful as His spirit reveals His intended meaning.

God knows the hearts and never judges unjustly.

Pride is an enemy - finding God personally requires humility and surrender.

Thanks again for the discussion I appreciate it.

Hi Carl,
I think what you're looking for is the body of death Paul wrote about that Adam and Eve were Asha med of and covered. That imo is the cause of most inherited change. The deeds of the flesh. Deeds that didn't happen before the fall because we didn't have a body that dies and needs to survive like all flesh that dies. God covered us appropriately in animal skin.

Carl Emerson · Apr 3, 2021

Eloy Craft said:
Hi Carl,
I think what

Was that a typo?

Eloy Craft · Apr 3, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Was that a typo?

Yeah, sorry. I edited.darn phones.

Carl Emerson · Apr 3, 2021

Eloy Craft said:
Yeah, sorry. I edited.darn phones.

All good.

Eloy Craft · Apr 3, 2021

Eternal primarily means changeless. Changeless without duration.

Carl Emerson · Apr 3, 2021

Eloy Craft said:
Eternal primarily means changeless. Changeless without duration.

Scripture usually refers to 'without beginning or end'.

Heb 7:3

3 Without father or mother or genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God, he remains a priest for all time.

Eloy Craft · Apr 3, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Scripture usually refers to 'without beginning or end'.

yup. Most people conceptualize that as endless consecutive moments but that is an extension of time as experienced on earth. The reasoning goes like this. Thinking of God's perspective of seeing all things at once there is but one eternal moment with no beginning no end. It follows that it means no duration at all rather than infinite duration. Infinite duration is a concept bound to temporal time. Endless consecutive moments thought to be within the one eternal moment is replacing the eternal mode of experience with a temporal experience. A duration requires a beginning and end to exist.

Carl Emerson · Apr 4, 2021

Eloy Craft said:
Infinite duration is a concept bound to temporal time.

Mmmm. not sure this is correct.

Andrewn · Apr 4, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Angels of the created order do not have an eternal past like those in the order of Melchizedek.

Are you saying that there are uncreated angels? That the Word of God is not the one and only unique begotten Son of God?

Heb 1:14 Are not the angels serving spirits sent out for ministry to those who will inherit salvation?

Carl Emerson · Apr 4, 2021

Andrewn said:
Are you saying that there are uncreated angels? That the Word of God is not the one and only unique begotten Son of God?

No...

You have connected two statements together and attributed them to me.

What I am saying is that there is an anglelic order that pre-existed the creation. That we are plainly told.

How on earth you can attribute your second sentence to me leaves me dumbfounded.

Daniel Marsh · Apr 4, 2021

luke 1:35

St. Helens · Apr 4, 2021

ADMIN HAT ON

The topic of preexistence prior to birth is off topic to General Theology and also off topic to this thread.
ADMIN HAT OFF

Eloy Craft · Apr 4, 2021

Our nature is human in the image of God. Before death we didn't need to survive. No organic auto operations dedicated to keeping death at bay. No ego. No annoying urges of the flesh. No ptsd. Nothing to cause us to be ashamed. Our bodies are the sign of our covenant with God.
The moment Methuselah's body lost life, the first drop of rain fell.
This is human nature deprived of life.

TedT · Apr 4, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
One creation in time.

One realm with no beginning or end.

An eternal realm of ...what?
REALM: 1 : kingdom sense 2 : sphere, domain within the realm of possibility. 3 : a primary marine or terrestrial biogeographic division of the earth's surface.

- 2. within the realm of possibility has no sense as a part of physical reality,
- 3. a primary marine or terrestrial biogeographic division of the earth's surface had a beginning leaving only
- 1. kingdom sense, which requires people, both Kings and subjects.

Please post your verses that you think support the idea of PEOPLE with no beginning or end.

Please quote your verses which make YHWH, the only Persons without beginning or end, to be more than 3 Divine Persons as in a realm.

Trying to hold my skepticism at bay...you can only interest me with biblical verses as I gave (some of) mine to you.

Jesus and the 'sinful' Nature?

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