Saint Steven

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New Covenant:
The post reads 1st to the Jew & then to the gentile.

The Jew received the promise 1st at Acts 2:4 Pentecost, fulfilling scripture.

Years later & Acts 10:44 it's expanded to gentiles as well, fulfilling the promise of blessing of all nations made to Abraham (Gen 18:18).
Salvation, yes. Covenants, no.

Romans 1:16 NIV
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
 
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Saint Steven

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I highlight > (MY NOTES) = my commentary.

My reference to God breathed scripture. Was in reference to direct C&P from known Bibles. I attach my parsing/notes/commentary under C&P God breathed scriptures. Hope this helps. JJ
Posts ALWAYS come with interpretation, or intent. Claiming what you posted is inspired (God breathed) is a heavy-handed attempt to silence whoever you were posting too. You think by playing the "God card" they are disagreeing with God if they disagree with you. This is very disrespectful. IMHO
 
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BrotherJJ

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Posts ALWAYS come with interpretation, or intent. Claiming what you posted is inspired (God breathed) is a heavy-handed attempt to silence whoever you were posting too. You think by playing the "God card" they are disagreeing with God if they disagree with you. This is very disrespectful. IMHO

I explained to you I never claimed my notes were anything, but my notes. The verses I C&P from an online bible were God breathed scripture. Best wishes, JJ
 
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BrotherJJ

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Salvation, yes. Covenants, no.

Romans 1:16 NIV
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

It's my opinion anyone indwelt with Christ Holy Spirit is part of the new covenant.
 
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Saint Steven

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I explained to you I never claimed my notes were anything, but my notes. The verses I C&P from an online bible were God breathed scripture. Best wishes, JJ
What scriptures were the NT referring to when it said "God breathed"? Since the NT did not yet exist?
 
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Saint Steven

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It's my opinion anyone indwelt with Christ Holy Spirit is part of the new covenant.
Does that mean that we are indwelt by two thirds of the Trinity? Or that Christ has a Holy Spirit aside from the Holy Spirit that is part of the Trinity?
 
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BrotherJJ

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What scriptures were the NT referring to when it said "God breathed"? Since the NT did not yet exist?

2 Tim 3:16 (A) All scripture is given by inspiration of God

Eph 1:1 written to saints if you're a saint you've been indwelt with Christs Holy Spirit. Therefore you're under the new covenant. Each of these disagree with the posters claim.

Rom 1:7 written to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

2 Cor 2:1 written to the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Gal 1:2 (B) written to the churches of Galatia

I C&P OP verses below from the online KJB. These verses are given by inspiration of God to gentile believers under the new covenant. Each of these disagree with the posters claim.

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves

Rom 4:15 (A) the law worketh wrath.

(2) Eph 2:12, Rom 2:14 & Acts 15:24

2 Cor 3:
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Gal 3:19 It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made

Rom 8:1 (A) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches "of his goodness" and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance"?

Rom 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake.
 
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BrotherJJ

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Does that mean that we are indwelt by two thirds of the Trinity? Or that Christ has a Holy Spirit aside from the Holy Spirit that is part of the Trinity?

The Father, Son & Spirit are all God. Matt 3:11 say Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. So
 
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Clare73

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God made a distinction so that Israel would serve as a light and a blessing to the nations, so rejecting the light and the blessing of God's word because He made that distinction undermines the point of the distinction.
In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude that went up out of Egypt with them, so there were Gentiles as the foot of Sinai. In Joshua 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born, so there have always been righteous Gentiles who have affiliated themselves with the God of Israel, who have sought by faith to repent from their sins and to learn how to walk in His ways in obedience to His law.
While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same laws for how to testify about His nature (Jeremiah 31:33). For example, God's righteous laws teach us how to testify about His righteousness, so by obeying them we are experiencing who He is and are expressing what we believe about the nature of who He is. If someone reject the laws that were given to teach us about the nature of the God of Israel, then they are rejecting the God of Israel. Jesus taught obedience to the Mosaic Law both by word and by example, so obediently submitting to obey them through faith is what we are committing to when we confess that Jesus is Lord. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it means to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross.
In Ephesians 2:19, all of those things are no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer stranger or aliens, but are now fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God.
Gentiles will by nature do the things contained in the Mosaic Law. In Romans 2:13, only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified, so only argue against obeying it if you don't want yourself and others to be justified.
In context, Paul is presenting the principles by which God judges mankind. He judges the Jews by the law. Under the law, only those who obey the law will be justified. Which is exactly why the law does not justify anyone, because no one can keep it as is required for justifification/righteousness, so what you have for those under the law is that "all who rely on the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10) because no one can keep it as required.
Rather than making man righteous, the law condemns him for unrighteousness.
This is referring to requiring circumcision for the purpose of becoming saved, not speaking against obeying God.
The fact that the law works wrath for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason to refuse to submit to it.
Unbelievers are required to refrain from sin even though they are under the New Covenant, so there is nothing about not being under the Mosaic Covenant that permits us to do what God has revealed to be sin through it.
In Romans 6:14, it describes the law that we aren't under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Mosaic Law, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under sin does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so we are still under God's law.
In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, the Mosaic Law brings life and a blessing for obedience while it brings death and a curse for disobedience, so it is a ministry of life for those who obey it, while the fact that it is a ministry of death for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason to refuse to submit to it.
Christ did not go around telling people that the law had ended and that they needed to stop repenting, but just the opposite.
The law brings us to Christ because everything in it testifies about how to grow in a relationship with him,
Where does the law present Christ, as well as his redeeming work, where faith in him saves from God's wrath (Romans 5:9)?

You're preaching another gospel (Galatians 1:9). Anathema! (curem)
]but does not bring us to Christ so that we can reject what he taught and go back to living in sin.
The law does not make us holy and righteous because it was never given for that purpose, but rather it is God who makes us holy and righteous and obedience to God's law is what that looks like. To say that someone is holy and righteous is to say that they are someone who does what is holy and righteous, and God's law is His instructions for how to do that (Romans 7:12).
While it is true that there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ, it is also true that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so being in Christ does not remove our obligation to obey the Mosaic Law, but just the opposite.
In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so obedience to it is what it means to have faith in the Jesus.
In 1 John 3:10, those who do not continue to practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God.
In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is what faith looks like.
God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey the Mosaic Law (Psalms 119:29).
Repentance is inherently an act of faith.
In Isaiah 64:6m it is not God speaking about how He sees us, but rather it was the people complaining about how they thought God saw them because He was not coming down and making His presence known. It wouldn't make sense to think that all throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, and then turn around and hold those who do that in contempt by viewing our actions as filthy rags. Rather, the reality is that the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8).
Agreed. The same is true of obeying the Mosaic Law.
 
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Saint Steven

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2 Tim 3:16 (A) All scripture is given by inspiration of God

Eph 1:1 written to saints if you're a saint you've been indwelt with Christs Holy Spirit. Therefore you're under the new covenant. Each of these disagree with the posters claim.

Rom 1:7 written to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

2 Cor 2:1 written to the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Gal 1:2 (B) written to the churches of Galatia

I C&P OP verses below from the online KJB. These verses are given by inspiration of God to gentile believers under the new covenant. Each of these disagree with the posters claim.

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves

Rom 4:15 (A) the law worketh wrath.

(2) Eph 2:12, Rom 2:14 & Acts 15:24

2 Cor 3:
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Gal 3:19 It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made

Rom 8:1 (A) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches "of his goodness" and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance"?

Rom 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""

Rom 1:5 "Through him we received grace" & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake.
That's a whole lot of C&P, but I don't see an answer to the question. No need.

You realize that the canon of the NT is a collection of books that were nominated, selected and voted on by the RCC in the 4th century, right?

Saint Steven said:
What scriptures were the NT referring to when it said "God breathed"? Since the NT did not yet exist?
 
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Saint Steven

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The Father, Son & Spirit are all God. Matt 3:11 say Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. So
Right. But why do you say that the believer needs two parts of the Trinity indwelling?

And, I'm guessing you don't understand what the Baptism with the Holy Spirit actually is.

Saint Steven said:
Does that mean that we are indwelt by two thirds of the Trinity? Or that Christ has a Holy Spirit aside from the Holy Spirit that is part of the Trinity?
 
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Saint Steven

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Faith & Faith alone is the requirement for salvation. Repentance/obedience & good works will be the result of Faith.
Despite my comments about who is under the new covenant and such, I actually agree with the general idea of your topic. Thanks for launching this thread.

Below is one of my favorite scriptures about not being under the law. The "we" here is the Israelites, to whom the gospel first came. (gentiles weren't under the law)

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
 
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Soyeong

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In context, Paul is presenting the principles by which God judges mankind. He judges the Jews by the law. Under the law, only those who obey the law will be justified. Which is exactly why the law does not justify anyone, because no one can keep it as is required for justifification/righteousness, so what you have for those under the law is that "all who rely on the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10) because no one can keep it as required.
Rather than making man righteous, the law condemns him for unrighteousness.

Being judged by the law is far preferable to perishing apart from it. The only way for either Jews or Gentiles to become justified is by being doers of the Mosaic Law, and in Romans 2:14, believing Gentiles will be nature be doers of it through faith. In Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16, 30:6), while having an uncircumcised heart is associated with refusing to obey it (Jeremiah 9:25-26, Acts 7:51-53).

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and a choice, not as something that no one can keep. So the reason why no one earns our justification by obeying the Mosaic Law is not because no can keep it, but because it was never given for that purpose. Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not earn their justification, so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal for why we should obey it. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through having good enough obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the one and only way to become righteous. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith by the same means as everyone else. God had no purpose in providing an alternative and unattainable means of becoming righteous by earning it through our obedience, so that was never the goal for why we should obey it.

I have never suggested that we should rely on works of the law, but rather I have been saying that we should rely on God's law. The reason why they were under a curse was because they were relying on works of the law instead of relying on God's law.

Where does the law present Christ, as well as his redeeming work, where faith in him saves from God's wrath (Romans 5:9)?

You're preaching another gospel (Galatians 1:9). Anathema! (curem)

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations (Matthew 24:12-14). The same goes for Acts 2:38 for how Peter’s audience knew what sin is when he told them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. In Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture is written for our instruction and in 15:18-19, his Gospel message involved bringing the Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so he was on the same page as Jesus about teaching repentance from our sins, and unlike you I am teaching the same Gospel they taught.
 
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Saint Steven

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Being judged by the law is far preferable to perishing apart from it. The only way for either Jews or Gentiles to become justified is by being doers of the Mosaic Law, and in Romans 2:14, believing Gentiles will be nature be doers of it through faith.
You can't assume that every time you see the word "law" in the NT that it refers to the Mosaic law. Sometimes it is even a reference to the books (the Law, capital L) and not the law (small "l") itself.

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
 
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Soyeong

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You can't assume that every time you see the word "law" in the NT that it refers to the Mosaic law. Sometimes it is even a reference to the books (the Law, capital L) and not the law (small "l") itself.

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

I don't assume that every time that the every time I see the word "law" in the NT that it refers to the Mosaic Law, and in fact it often does not. Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law, such as the Law of God, the law of sin, and works of the law. For example, in Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and in Romans 7:25, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin. However, the phrase "the Law and the Prophets" straightforwardly refers to everything in the Law and the Prophets, which is inclusive of the Mosaic Law.
 
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Studyman

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The old covenant was the Mosaic covenant, not the Abrahamic covenant. (which is older and does apply to us gentiles) See Romans 4:16

Actually God gave Abraham's Children His Covenant with Abraham first. When they transgressed, HE "ADDED" His Covenant with Levi on Israel's behalf. This ADDED Covenant was the first stand alone Covenant God made with Israel. And it was the one that Changed. It dealt with 2 things.

#1. How God's Laws were administered. Old Covenant "Levites" had the exclusive duty to give the people God's Laws. New Covenant, God writes these laws on the hearts of His People.

#2. How Transgression of God's Laws were atoned for. Old Covenant "Levites" were the High Priest and had the exclusive duty as mediator between God and man. New Covenant, Jesus is the High Priest after the order of Melchesidec, and HE offer to God, not the Blood of animals to atone for Sins, but His Own Blood. He is the High Priest.

There is an ancient religious philosophy which teaches the Old Covenant that became obsolete was the Abraham Covenant God first gave Israel. It has caused many to go off the rails.

Jer. 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

The Covenant with Levi for atonement of the people wasn't "ADDED" until transgression (Golden Calf) and it was a temporary Covenant to begin with as it was only "ADDED" Till the Seed should come.

Mainstream preaching on this has been corrupted, but the Bible clearly shows this to be true. I can provide all the scriptures which teach this truth, but didn't want this reply to be too long. I will however, post one.

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (EX. 32:26)

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
 
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BrotherJJ

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Right. But why do you say that the believer needs two parts of the Trinity indwelling?

And, I'm guessing you don't understand what the Baptism with the Holy Spirit actually is.

Saint Steven said:
Does that mean that we are indwelt by two thirds of the Trinity? Or that Christ has a Holy Spirit aside from the Holy Spirit that is part of the Trinity?

I gave a brief overview in post #18 in this thread. I provide a more comprehensive view here:

KJ Dictionary Definition: CHRIST, n. THE ANOINTED; an appellation given to the Savior of the World, and synonymous with the Hebrew Messiah. It was a custom of antiquity to consecrate persons to Priests and Kings into office by anointing them with oil.

John 7:
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)
(MY NOTE: Jesus foretells of the giving/out pouring/seal of/with, Christ's indwelling Holy Spirit to be given to believers)

Christ is ANOINTED with the Holy Spirit

Lk 3:22 And "the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him" and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
(MY NOTE: God anointed Jesus was a with an UNLIMITED measure of the Holy Spirit)

Acts 10:38 (A) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power:
(MY NOTE: God ANOINTS Jesus with the HOLY SPIRIT & POWER)

The PROMISE = Holy Spirit will be given

Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send ""the promise"" of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high
(MY NOTE: Jesus teaches he will send "the promise" the Father made him)

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for "the promise" of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me
(MY NOTE: Jesus tells them to wait in Jerusalem for "the promise" of the Father)

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days hence.
(MY NOTE: Jesus foretells the giving/baptism/out pouring of the indwelling Holy Spirit to come)

Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear
(MY NOTE: After Christ's glorification/resurrection. Christ sends the Promise of the Father = Holy Spirit)

Acts 2:
1 (A) when the day of Pentecost was fully come
(MY NOTE: When the day of Pentecost had fully come)

4 And they were all "filled with the Holy Spirit" and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
(NOTE: Here it is "filled with the Holy Spirit" the new covenant begins right here. Christ's baptism with His salvation sealing indwelling Holy Spirit)

New Covenant Spiritual Seal: Christ's baptism with the indwelling Holy Spirit

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.
(MY NOTE: Christ SEALS believers with Gods promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit)

Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(MY NOTE: God's Spirit dwells in every believer)

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us.
(MY NOTE: God places/seals his love in our hearts via His Holy Spirit given unto us)

1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, "and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you"?
(MY NOTE: The Promised Gift of God's Holy Spirit dwells in every believer)

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is "Christ in you", the hope of glory:
(MY NOTE: Christ/God's Spirit is in you)

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that thru the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of 1 body, & sharers together in the promise "in Christ"
(NOTE: Gentiles share in the PROMISED Holy Spirit)

Ehp 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(MY NOTE: Believers are SEALED Gods Holy Spirit until the day thier Adamic corruptible bodies are redeemed & transformed into, eternal, incorruptible Heavenly bodies)
 
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