A Pastoral Letter to the Clergy from His Eminence Metropolitan JOSEPH

tapi said:

It is perfectly related, as for the last 10 months or so, protopresbyter Heers has been promoting

1) Theories about the Zionists, Kabbalah, Masonists and the Global Elite being behind the corona virus with the plan of seating the Anti-Christ as the world ruler, with the crisis being just the shortcut to bring people to submission
2) Asserting a novel doctrine of the temple area as a totally illness-free zone (even in regard to person-to-person infection) as dogma (consequently, those who employ or agree with sanitary measures are heretics, blasphemers or at best in grave error)
3) Promoting "holy disobedience" to the bishops in regard to the sanitary measures
4) Taking a very political stance pro-Trump, despite his clerical rank, and spreading conspiracy theories about the election having been stolen.
5) Exhorting the Orthodox to not take take the COVID-19 vaccine and spreading theories about it being the Mark of the beast or a "precursor".

In short, he falls under each and every category of issues Met. Joseph discusses in his letter and in no uncertain terms, condemns. Now, Heers obviously isn't under his jurisdiction (good for him, he would be suspended or even defrocked at this point.) In fact, it seems he is under no-ones active pastoral oversight as he says he is under a ROCOR-USA bishop while residing permanently in Greece.

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1) How do you know #1 is false?
2) As you put it, I agree that that would be bad. I would be interested in seeing substantiation that that is precisely what Fr Peter teaches.
3) I agree that disobedience to a bishop should be an extremely rare thing, done only in the certainty of heresy on the part of the bishop and in the fear of God. I think the issue is one of what a bishop may legitimately command, and that is limited to what is taught in Holy Tradition. There are many things in which a bishop’s authority to command is dubious or non-existent. I think masks to be in that category.
4) The election WAS stolen, 100%. And Trump proved to be a decent man to my surprise. I was a never-Trumper in the summer of 2016. Nothing wrong with supporting him.
5) How do you know the vaccine is not a danger?

In short, your complaints can be challenged. They do not present givens that we must accept without question. Your own opinions are controversial and challengeable.

All of this, to my mind, falls under what I see as the division of the war of fashion on tradition, between those that believe that everything changes, including divine revelation and church practice and teaching, and those who believe more in its general constancy. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but you probably believe that the virus is the greatest danger, and that all measures are justified in trying to stop it, and you believe in human evolution. You probably support enough of the Democratic Party platform to have voted for them, though perhaps not. This is not an ad hominem attack, but to make a point that there IS a general division, and that most of us find ourselves definitively on one side or the other of it, with only exceptions on occasional issues here or there. It is NOT primarily political, though it affects how we see politics as well.

tapi said:

Yes, the truth is that hate, malice, disdain or anger cannot truly cure, correct or heal. Yet in extreme contexts, in the face of extreme views which cause harm, these passions are hard to avoid, as evidenced even by the hierarchy and ma. I do admit my shortcomings on this.

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right, which is why you can hate all you want on an erroneous idea, but not the man. especially if that man is a priest, who prays before the altar.

I know I’m resurrecting an old thread here, but I must say I have observed Father Peter Heers having a very negative effect on my parish. During this COVID crisis, it has caused a lot of our parishioners to fall away. Truly sad.

prodromos said:

He is very patristic in his approach, which rubs some people the wrong way.

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I don't know Father Peter Heers at all, have never heard what he states. But, I think when the Church segways into political topics it does so at great damage to itself.

I'm a conservative Republican, but I know my political beliefs are not shared by all my brothers and sisters in Christ. Why would I want to damage their Worship experience by bringing my political beliefs into that venue? Similarly, I don't want theirs to ruin my Worship experience.

When I walk into a Church I'd like to think I leave political ideology behind me, out in the parking lot somewhere. The Holy Spirit has no time for such mundane topics, He is engaged in much more serious business-saving souls for Eternity.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

I know I’m resurrecting an old thread here, but I must say I have observed Father Peter Heers having a very negative effect on my parish. During this COVID crisis, it has caused a lot of our parishioners to fall away. Truly sad.

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I should probably preface everything by saying that I do not especially follow Fr Peter, and have only a superficial familiarity with a few things he has said.

As you put it, it sounds like you are saying that parishioners are understandably leaving because of possibly un-Christian things Fr Peter has said; that he is at fault for a drop in attendance at your parish. That's how it comes across, anyway. So I would ask for more specifics as to why people leave. I myself have been tempted to leave the Church because of masses of parishioners who reject the teaching and words of Christ, the apostles, saints and fathers in favor of worldly wisdom on issues. I haven't left, but the temptation is there. On the other hand, when Christ told the Jews they'd have to eat His Body and drink His Blood, He saw a massive drop in attendance. So the question is, who is in the right for doing what? What little I HAVE heard Fr Peter say is patristic, and hasn't conflicted with Church teaching as I understand it. I'm open to learning more, but as I said, I am on the side of tradition against modernity, so I am going to side with the traditional teachings and against modern psychology, science, etc, that effectively conflicts with that. I want to be in the Church of the fathers, not try to shoehorn them in against their teachings into my own conception of faith, and wherever my conception of error contradicts them, it behooves me to change it.

I agree. I’m VERY conservative as well. What I’ve seen is people listening to this priest and believing that germs can’t enter an Orthodox temple, so I’ve been shocked to see people I thought were far more obedient and thoughtful falling for this.

Our priest has been WONDERFUL. Father has had our church open almost the entire time Covid has been around. He knows we have elderly parishioners as well as people on chemo as well as his own very serious health conditions. So, he has asked just that people wear masks and use the hand sanitizer as they enter the narthex. THATS IT. A silly mask and some sanitizer, yet these people see it as heresy and demonstrating a lack of faith. I’m shocked how many of them quoted Father Heers. Father Heers says this, Father Heers said that.....so I’m leaving this parish, etc. My good friend in the choir who is a former deacon and super faithful said, “I’m sick to death of hearing this internet tripe. People—-stay off the $%#* internet!!!”

I find it an interesting choice. It’s as if to say, “Masks in church!? Blasphemy!! I’ll teach this clergy and parish a real lesson! Ha ha! I’ll boycott the Body and Blood of the King of Kings, avoid confessing to the Lord, keep away from worshiping the Triune God, and won’t take one whiff of that incense! That’ll teach y’all a lesson!”

My friend and I were talking about how seductive the internet gurus can be. Listen to your priest, bishop, and be obedient. Period.

I think politics is penetrating our church from both sides. I’m starting to see young converts brag that they’re “Democratic Socialists” super sad. Then I hear the other extreme looking at Trump as practically an infallible political pope. Every conspiracy is legit. Trump is never wrong. The other side are young wannabe commies. Sucks.

Landos said:

I don't know Father Peter Heers at all, have never heard what he states. But, I think when the Church segways into political topics it does so at great damage to itself.

I'm a conservative Republican, but I know my political beliefs are not shared by all my brothers and sisters in Christ. Why would I want to damage their Worship experience by bringing my political beliefs into that venue? Similarly, I don't want theirs to ruin my Worship experience.

When I walk into a Church I'd like to think I leave political ideology behind me, out in the parking lot somewhere. The Holy Spirit has no time for such mundane topics, He is engaged in much more serious business-saving souls for Eternity.

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

I agree. I’m VERY conservative as well. What I’ve seen is people listening to this priest and believing that germs can’t enter an Orthodox temple, so I’ve been shocked to see people I thought were far more obedient and thoughtful falling for this.

Our priest has been WONDERFUL. Father has had our church open almost the entire time Covid has been around. He knows we have elderly parishioners as well as people on chemo as well as his own very serious health conditions. So, he has asked just that people wear masks and use the hand sanitizer as they enter the narthex. THATS IT. A silly mask and some sanitizer, yet these people see it as heresy and demonstrating a lack of faith. I’m shocked how many of them quoted Father Heers. Father Heers says this, Father Heers said that.....so I’m leaving this parish, etc. My good friend in the choir who is a former deacon and super faithful said, “I’m sick to death of hearing this internet tripe. People—-stay off the $%#* internet!!!”

I find it an interesting choice. It’s as if to say, “Masks in church!? Blasphemy!! I’ll teach this clergy and parish a real lesson! Ha ha! I’ll boycott the Body and Blood of the King of Kings, avoid confessing to the Lord, keep away from worshiping the Triune God, and won’t take one whiff of that incense! That’ll teach y’all a lesson!”

My friend and I were talking about how seductive the internet gurus can be. Listen to your priest, bishop, and be obedient. Period.

I think politics is penetrating our church from both sides. I’m starting to see young converts brag that they’re “Democratic Socialists” super sad. Then I hear the other extreme looking at Trump as practically an infallible political pope. Every conspiracy is legit. Trump is never wrong. The other side are young wannabe commies. Sucks.

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Politics divides people, I'm for uniting people in Church

As for the pandemic, my Priest and Bishop have been very proactive in requiring all the measures to protect everyone. Mask, temp taken at the door, social separation in the pews, separation in line, no kissing Icons, etc, etc, etc.. Because of these measures we've had no incidence of infection attributable to our Church services.

God gave us the laws of science and our minds to use those tools to make intelligent decisions. I'm for honoring Him by doing so and respecting my fellow congregants by thinking of their health. Anything less than that is rubbish.

I think you know you’re a fanatic when you have a priest who opens church when all the others are shuttered, offers holy communion when all other churches think it’s “germy,” and even allows coffee your with social distancing, and you think that’s liberal and un-Orthodox

Landos said:

Politics divides people, I'm for uniting people in Church

As for the pandemic, my Priest and Bishop have been very proactive in requiring all the measures to protect everyone. Mask, temp taken at the door, social separation in the pews, separation in line, no kissing Icons, etc, etc, etc.. Because of these measures we've had no incidence of infection attributable to our Church services.

God gave us the laws of science and our minds to use those tools to make intelligent decisions. I'm for honoring Him by doing so and respecting my fellow congregants by thinking of their health. Anything less than that is rubbish.

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

I agree. I’m VERY conservative as well. What I’ve seen is people listening to this priest and believing that germs can’t enter an Orthodox temple, so I’ve been shocked to see people I thought were far more obedient and thoughtful falling for this.

Our priest has been WONDERFUL. Father has had our church open almost the entire time Covid has been around. He knows we have elderly parishioners as well as people on chemo as well as his own very serious health conditions. So, he has asked just that people wear masks and use the hand sanitizer as they enter the narthex. THATS IT. A silly mask and some sanitizer, yet these people see it as heresy and demonstrating a lack of faith. I’m shocked how many of them quoted Father Heers. Father Heers says this, Father Heers said that.....so I’m leaving this parish, etc. My good friend in the choir who is a former deacon and super faithful said, “I’m sick to death of hearing this internet tripe. People—-stay off the $%#* internet!!!”

I find it an interesting choice. It’s as if to say, “Masks in church!? Blasphemy!! I’ll teach this clergy and parish a real lesson! Ha ha! I’ll boycott the Body and Blood of the King of Kings, avoid confessing to the Lord, keep away from worshiping the Triune God, and won’t take one whiff of that incense! That’ll teach y’all a lesson!”

My friend and I were talking about how seductive the internet gurus can be. Listen to your priest, bishop, and be obedient. Period.

I think politics is penetrating our church from both sides. I’m starting to see young converts brag that they’re “Democratic Socialists” super sad. Then I hear the other extreme looking at Trump as practically an infallible political pope. Every conspiracy is legit. Trump is never wrong. The other side are young wannabe commies. Sucks.

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This. How some people can consider as edifying and helpful actions and teachings which actually separate faithful from their local parish and sacramental life I doubt I will ever comprehend. In reality, this kind of conduct, especially when coming from clergymen, is quasi-schismatic and reeks of deep, deep issues in the spiritual life of those putting out these tenets.

Usually we have seen this kind of stuff from the "true" "orthodox" folks; it is a great shame that this spirit of division has infiltrated even some of the canonical clergy of the Church (thank God they are an ultra minority). It is one thing to give constructive criticism, which is all good and even necessary, but Heers & co. go way beyond all limits of moderation.

It’s a sad commentary on the state of modern contemporary times politically. I was reading an article today in the LA Times about how wonderful it is that America is becoming more atheist. On and on it goes about the glories of non belief and it equates uneducated stupidity with religiosity. Socialism in ANY form is ruining our world....quickly. Guys like Father Heers and President Trump are a reaction to Marxism, the idiocy of BLM, cancel culture, LGBT 24/7 indoctrination, and the immoral culture we live in today. So I may get frustrated with this “germs can’t enter a church” and “mask wearing shows a lack of faith” goofiness, but I know where the weird overreacting comes from. Predatory vulture capitalism abs Marxist liberal European style thinking, these two extremes, are destroying us. The America I grew up in is dead. This is a 1984 spook show. And our church is affected by it.....on both sides.

tapi said:

This. How some people can consider as edifying and helpful actions and teachings which actually separate faithful from their local parish and sacramental life I doubt I will ever comprehend. In reality, this kind of conduct, especially when coming from clergymen, is quasi-schismatic and reeks of deep, deep issues in the spiritual life of those putting out these tenets.

Usually we have seen this kind of stuff coming out from the "true" "orthodox" folks; it is a great shame that this spirit of division has infiltrated even some of the canonical clergy of the Church (thank God they are an ultra minority). It is one thing to give constructive criticism, which is all good and even necessary, but Heers & co. go way beyond all limits of moderation.

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tapi said:

This. How some people can consider as edifying and helpful actions and teachings which actually separate faithful from their local parish and sacramental life I doubt I will ever comprehend. In reality, this kind of conduct, especially when coming from clergymen, is quasi-schismatic and reeks of deep, deep issues in the spiritual life of those putting out these tenets.

Usually we have seen this kind of stuff coming out from the "true" "orthodox" folks; it is a great shame that this spirit of division has infiltrated even some of the canonical clergy of the Church (thank God they are an ultra minority). It is one thing to give constructive criticism, which is all good and even necessary, but Heers & co. go way beyond all limits of moderation.

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I think this is why the OCA thought it fit to specifically rebuke his website for their effects.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

It’s a sad commentary on the state of modern contemporary times politically. I was reading an article today in the LA Times about how wonderful it is that America is becoming more atheist. On and on it goes about the glories of non belief and it equates uneducated stupidity with religiosity. Socialism in ANY form is ruining our world....quickly. Guys like Father Heers and President Trump are a reaction to Marxism, the idiocy of BLM, cancel culture, LGBT 24/7 indoctrination, and the immoral culture we live in today. So I may get frustrated with this “germs can’t enter a church” and “mask wearing shows a lack of faith” goofiness, but I know where the weird overreacting comes from. Predatory vulture capitalism abs Marxist liberal European style thinking, these two extremes, are destroying us. The America I grew up in is dead. This is a 1984 spook show. And our church is affected by it.....on both sides.

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Your first mistake was reading the LA Times. Like it's east coast cousin the NYT, nothing of import comes out of that rag.

Agreed. But from time to time I think all Orthodox Christians need to see how the Marxist intelligentsia thinks in 2021. People who think you can be a socialist and an Orthodox Christian are living in a pipe dream. Socialism is centered on godlessness. Every problem can be solved through cooperation between us and government with these folks. No need for God in their worldview.

Landos said:

Your first mistake was reading the LA Times. Like it's east coast cousin the NYT, nothing of import comes out of that rag.

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

Agreed. But from time to time I think all Orthodox Christians need to see how the Marxist intelligentsia thinks in 2021. People who think you can be a socialist and an Orthodox Christian are living in a pipe dream. Socialism is centered on godlessness. Every problem can be solved through cooperation between us and government with these folks. No need for God in their worldview.

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They'll wreck the good thing we've had going in this country, the problem is once we're turned into Illinois or California with their confiscatory tax policies and never-ending social spending the damage is irrecoverable. Once you build the bureaucracy, you have to keep funding it.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

I think all Orthodox Christians need to see how the Marxist intelligentsia thinks in 2021. People who think you can be a socialist and an Orthodox Christian are living in a pipe dream. Socialism is centered on godlessness. Every problem can be solved through cooperation between us and government with these folks. No need for God in their worldview.

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For what it's worth, I have never seen such a person (a godless marxist socialist) (who is Orthodox) in my life.

Granted, I live in Scandinavia and have only resided in the States for one year. I, myself, support fair distribution of wealth, in which the productive and the business-savvy get their fair share and even more, having almost everything anyone could possibly want from life, while the taxes provide the possibility for each citizen to live a good life, with access to proper healthcare, and a good education to every child regardless of the income of the parents, and so forth. These are a given in the Nordic countries. I find it ignorant or dishonest when this well-working system is labeled as Marxism, socialism etc. What things in common can one find in, say, the society in Norway vs. Cuba or the Soviet Union? There are simply none.

Frankly, it is a false dichotomy, but then again, I am not completely up to date on whats happening in the USA, and I also do not support the extremist sides from the left. In matters of faith, I prefer to take no sides at all, and I find it extremely distasteful that some parties (not you, Gurnie) seek to identify Orthodoxy with American far-right conservatism.

The funny thing about the Nordic countries is that they were doing VERY well economically before socialism, and that most of the economic boons to those nations does not come from socialism, but from their capitalist actions. Private industry is what makes those nations wealthy along with the fact that each country has an army the size of a soccer field versus the United States that has to act as the world's police force. Scandinavian countries can blow money hand over fist because their military spending is about as much as my salary. It's a joke. They're also small nations with nothing near the United States' population and challenges. They also aren't along the Mexican border receiving millions and millions of illegal immigrants on a yearly basis. They're not diverse countries either. They've had it easy. The amount they fork over to NATO is laughable in comparison to the U.S. as well. Tiny, small military, not diverse, easier to manage. Apples and oranges. I've never seen a godless marxist socialist Orthodox either. I never said I did. What I have seen is Orthodox calling themselves "democratic socialists" and voting for liberal Democrats over and over again, the very party of the predominantly atheist secular humanist abortion-supporting, LGBT fan base, drug-legalizing, euthanasia enthusiasts who push the "new morality" on this country in saturation day in day out. So what does that mean? Should an Orthodox Christian support such things? The right wing is loaded with negatives, but they at least respect faith and church and tradition. They at least don't see the loss of faith as "progress" as the left does. It's not really a false dichotomy. If you listen to our "socialists" in America, they really don't sound like Nordic folks. They talk a lot like Che or Mao, et. al.

tapi said:

For what it's worth, I have never seen such a person (a godless marxist socialist) (who is Orthodox) in my life.

Granted, I live in Scandinavia and have only resided in the States for one year. I, myself, support fair distribution of wealth, in which the productive and the business-savvy get their fair share and even more, having almost everything anyone could possibly want from life, while the taxes provide the possibility for each citizen to live a good life, with access to proper healthcare, good education to every child regardless of the income of the parents, and so forth. These are things that are a given in the Nordic countries. I find it ignorant, when this well-working system is labeled as Marxism, socialism etc. What things in common can one find in, say, the society in Norway vs. Cuba or the Soviet Union?

Simply, it is a false dichotomy, but then again, I am not completely up to date on whats happening in the USA, and I also do not support the extremist sides from the left. In matters of faith, I prefer to take no sides at all.

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

The funny thing about the Nordic countries is that they were doing VERY well economically before socialism, and that most of the economic boons to those nations does not come from socialism, but from their capitalist actions. Private industry is what makes those nations wealthy along with the fact that each country has an army the size of a soccer field versus the United States that has to act as the world's police force. Scandinavian countries can blow money hand over fist because their military spending is about as much as my salary. It's a joke. They're also small nations with nothing near the United States' population and challenges. They also aren't along the Mexican border receiving millions and millions of illegal immigrants on a yearly basis. They're not diverse countries either. They've had it easy. The amount they fork over to NATO is laughable in comparison to the U.S. as well. Tiny, small military, not diverse, easier to manage. Apples and oranges. I've never seen a godless marxist socialist Orthodox either. I never said I did. What I have seen is Orthodox calling themselves "democratic socialists" and voting for liberal Democrats over and over again, the very party of the predominantly atheist secular humanist abortion-supporting, LGBT fan base, drug-legalizing, euthanasia enthusiasts who push the "new morality" on this country in saturation day in day out. So what does that mean? Should an Orthodox Christian support such things? The right wing is loaded with negatives, but they at least respect faith and church and tradition. They at least don't see the loss of faith as "progress" as the left does. It's not really a false dichotomy. If you listen to our "socialists" in America, they really don't sound like Nordic folks. They talk a lot like Che or Mao, et. al.

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I understand that the context is very different and I will not comment on whether such systems are viable in the States as I have no competence to make any comment on the subject as regards the USA.

All I know is that in the Nordic countries the rich are very rich, and the poor are poor, but if one does their part, they are not on the streets, but working their way up. One has to be *very* negligent to find their way to a truly terrible situation.

Of course, there are always freeloaders in these kinds of systems. But personally, I would rather have 100 freeloaders than lose 1 child who never got their chance to make it. This, of course, would be WAY different in the States as compared to any Nordic country, so I know we cannot compare things easily. Just voicing my thoughts.

We have a staggering homeless problem in California. Simply put, while some are run-aways due to domestic abuse, some are homeless veterans (unacceptable!), and some suffered financial misfortune, the VAAAAAST majority are in two camps:

Drug-addicted on meth
Mentally ill

California just plain does not have the $$$$ or infrastructure to accomodate all the mentally ill and drug addicted people we have. It's financially impossible. And as the nation spirals into immorality and a lack of cohesion, a lack of unity, a lack of mutual respect and hope, and especially godlessness, the drug and mentally ill problem will only grow and grow and grow. My wife worked in a psych ward for like two months when she was studying to be an RN 9 years ago. She was blown away that about half the mental patients in the facility were originally sane, mentally healthy folks. They later became so drug-addicted that the damage from meth and other drugs like heroin created so much brain damage that mental illness ensued. It's horrendous. California is a very immoral state and with immorality and godlessness come despair. Despair is always in charge when God is pushed away. Ask King Saul! And because of this, my state is becoming a walking dead state. Homeless walk the streets leaving garbage everywhere. It's totally apocalyptic looking horror fodder!

No amount of socialism would solve this nightmare. I think there's no turning this around. We're a one-party Democrat state. And this is what it has created.

tapi said:

I understand that the context is very different and I will not comment on whether such systems are viable in the States as I have no competence to make any comment on the subject as regards the USA.

All I know is that in the Nordic countries the rich are very rich, and the poor are poor, but if one does their part, they are not on the streets, but working their way up. One has to be *very* negligent to find their way to a truly terrible situation.

Of course, there are always freeloaders in these kinds of systems. But personally, I would rather have 100 freeloaders than lose 1 child who never got their chance to make it. This, of course, would be WAY different in the States as compared to any Nordic country, so I know we cannot compare things easily. Just voicing my thoughts.

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

We have a staggering homeless problem in California. Simply put, while some are run-aways due to domestic abuse, some are homeless veterans (unacceptable!), and some suffered financial misfortune, the VAAAAAST majority are in two camps:

Drug-addicted on meth
Mentally ill

California just plain does not have the $$$$ or infrastructure to accomodate all the mentally ill and drug addicted people we have. It's financially impossible. And as the nation spirals into immorality and a lack of cohesion, a lack of unity, a lack of mutual respect and hope, and especially godlessness, the drug and mentally ill problem will only grow and grow and grow. My wife worked in a psych ward for like two months when she was studying to be an RN 9 years ago. She was blown away that about half the mental patients in the facility were originally sane, mentally healthy folks. They later became so drug-addicted that the damage from meth and other drugs like heroin created so much brain damage that mental illness ensued. It's horrendous. California is a very immoral state and with immorality and godlessness come despair. Despair is always in charge when God is pushed away. Ask King Saul! And because of this, my state is becoming a walking dead state. Homeless walk the streets leaving garbage everywhere. It's totally apocalyptic looking horror fodder!

No amount of socialism would solve this nightmare. I think there's no turning this around. We're a one-party Democrat state. And this is what it has created.

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It sounds very bad; as regards the politics I have no understanding to make much comments. However, the fact that many mentally ill people are homeless without receiving adequate care (their condition very likely being the main cause of their situation), however, is telling of very deep seated issues regarding access to healthcare overall.

Overall, yeah, it is bad. I do not claim to know the solution and I know you do not either. It is what it is... may God help us.

gurneyhalleck1 said:

The funny thing about the Nordic countries is that they were doing VERY well economically before socialism, and that most of the economic boons to those nations does not come from socialism, but from their capitalist actions. Private industry is what makes those nations wealthy along with the fact that each country has an army the size of a soccer field versus the United States that has to act as the world's police force. Scandinavian countries can blow money hand over fist because their military spending is about as much as my salary. It's a joke. They're also small nations with nothing near the United States' population and challenges. They also aren't along the Mexican border receiving millions and millions of illegal immigrants on a yearly basis. They're not diverse countries either. They've had it easy. The amount they fork over to NATO is laughable in comparison to the U.S. as well. Tiny, small military, not diverse, easier to manage. Apples and oranges. I've never seen a godless marxist socialist Orthodox either. I never said I did. What I have seen is Orthodox calling themselves "democratic socialists" and voting for liberal Democrats over and over again, the very party of the predominantly atheist secular humanist abortion-supporting, LGBT fan base, drug-legalizing, euthanasia enthusiasts who push the "new morality" on this country in saturation day in day out. So what does that mean? Should an Orthodox Christian support such things? The right wing is loaded with negatives, but they at least respect faith and church and tradition. They at least don't see the loss of faith as "progress" as the left does. It's not really a false dichotomy. If you listen to our "socialists" in America, they really don't sound like Nordic folks. They talk a lot like Che or Mao, et. al.

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Scandanavian countries are starting to experience the social problems everyone else in Europe has, largely attributable to throwing open their borders to economic refugees. The Left in Sweden in particular has instigated great problems with their policies.

It was one thing to introduce social safety nets when the population was largely of one ethnicity, one culture and embraced the same values. Today, those social safety nets are being abused by recent immigrants and refugees. It's not sustainable, but the Left in Sweden portrays everyone who stands up against their policies as extreme nationalists or NAZIS. As always, when problems are allowed to fester they are getting worse and a social reaction of great scale is not far off. The normal democratic checks and balances have been suppressed in Sweden by the Left and the teapot is getting hotter and hotter. It's not a healthy situation.