Is it Wrong to Call Calvinism Unjust?

Ben johnson

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Actually I claim the first and second are the same. And used the same way.
Nobody escapes the principle. It is in Adam alone that any are cursed with the sin nature and spiritually dead. It is in Christ alone that any are made alive.

Yes all does refer to everyone.
Good for you --- so "atonement", is not "limited" (not by God, it is only limited by people like the man in Matt22 who refused because of business, and the other who refused because of farming, and the third who refused the king's clothes -- allegory for God's righteousness, Isaiah61:10).

But it does not MEAN everyone. It is ONLY REFERRING to everyone, in that there are none to whom the principle does not apply.
Titus2:11 God's grace came to all men; Acts17:26-31 God arranges that every last person can seek Him and can find Him, He's not far, all are commanded to repent, Jesus' resurrection is proof to all men every last person.

Atonement is not limited by God, the "L" in TULIP is not Scriptural.

Are you a universalist?
Universalism, "all mankind will waltz through the gates of Heaven"? I attended Calrton Pearson's lecture on Universalism, took notes -- and wrote a chapter in my book fully destroying Universalism with precise verses. Not all will be saved; and many who THINK they're saved, are in for a shocking realization -- Matt7:21-23.
 
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Ben johnson

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You keep doing this. merely asserting it is so. The scripture doesn't tell you that there is any way for the lost, apart from God's enabling, to believe, yet you say it is in that sequence, with regeneration as a result of faith. In spite of your many quotations showing God (and others) telling people to believe, and that say that salvation is by faith, you neglect to show how this faith is possible in the slave to sin, who will not submit to God's --indeed cannot, according to Scripture. God must change them. They are not sufficient to the task. Faith is the direct work of the Holy Spirit --it is not something separate from the Holy Spirit. And, NO, MONERGISM DOES NOT SAY WE DO NOTHING. but that God does it in us. Our efforts do not increase his or make them any more valid or effective. Faith is, or isn't. Degree of faith is irrelevant, KIND of faith is not irrelevant.
Show me the verse that says God declines to enable anyone to believe! Jesus said "no one comes to Me except the Father draws him", using helkuo-draw/drag forcibly. (John6:44) And Jesus said in Jn12:32 that He draws ALL MEN to Himself, again using helkuo.

Please show the verse, any verse, where "God changes men before and in order that men can believe"? Have you interacted with Acts17:26-31?

You read Rom6 and Eph2, our belief-to-salvation happened WHEN we were dead. I asked you if "made-alive/have-life" can exist separate from "regeneration" -- I'm counting on you agreeing it cannot; but life is AFTER belief in Jn20:31! How is that possible, unless spiritually dead men can believe?

I asked you "where is saving-faith from, from God or from our own hearts"? Generally Calvinism reads Rm12:3 and thinks God GIVES faith TO men (and often thinks "that" in Eph2:8 is "that-faith"); no, Rm12:3 is Semitic View (and Eph2:8 "that" is THAT SALVATION), God does not give saving-faith TO men. He commands it FROM us.

Are we so far apart in understanding?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Good for you --- so "atonement", is not "limited" (not by God, it is only limited by people like the man in Matt22 who refused because of business, and the other who refused because of farming, and the third who refused the king's clothes -- allegory for God's righteousness, Isaiah61:10).
I see I'm not the only one who doesn't always read whole the whole post. No, it does not say any such thing. This is not, in spite of how even some Calvinists use it, a verse to teach universal death by Adam. It only posits that the curse came no other way, but by Adam. So also, nobody is made alive but by Christ. This principle applies to EVERYBODY.

You are not listening, to pretend what I said shows unlimited atonement.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Show me the verse that says God declines to enable anyone to believe!
Isaiah 6:
9 ...“Go and tell this people:

“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
 
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Mark Quayle

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Jesus said "no one comes to Me except the Father draws him", using helkuo-draw/drag forcibly. (Is that John6:40?) And Jesus said in Jn12:32 that He draws ALL MEN to Himself, again using helkuo.
So he uses helkuo twice. Is this your hermeneutic? I could argue that it doesn't mean the same thing in all places, since your logic is poor, assuming it must since the same word is used. Some kind of magic you got going there, I don't know. But I'm not going there because I don't need to. God draws all people, I believe. Romans 1 gives one way this happens, so that they are without excuse. Nevertheless, it does not mean that God draws all with equal force. Nor does it mean that the drawing is for the purpose of convincing some to regenerate themselves.
 
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Brightfame52

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Putting my work on someone else? Your not even making any sense because I have explained every quote I’ve posted. The scriptures I’ve quoted refute your theology and you are incapable of explaining how these verses can be interpreted in such a way that they don’t refute your theology. I can explain every single verse you have and I’m willing to do so. So in short you’ve already lost this debate because you refuse to even engage in it.
Again, Calling calvinism unjust is merely men making excuses to reject what God has said.
 
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Ben johnson

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You keep doing this. merely asserting it is so. The scripture doesn't tell you that there is any way for the lost, apart from God's enabling, to believe, yet you say it is in that sequence, with regeneration as a result of faith. In spite of your many quotations showing God (and others) telling people to believe, and that say that salvation is by faith, you neglect to show how this faith is possible in the slave to sin,
I did that, Mark -- Rm6:17 states that although we were slaves to sin we became obedient to God. It's the same in Eph2:3-8 --- WHEN we were dead in our sins God made us alive through our faith.
who will not submit to God's --indeed cannot, according to Scripture. God must change them.
Again and again I ask Calvinists to show me any verse that teaches "God changes hearts BEFORE they believe" --- they won't, because there isn't any.
They are not sufficient to the task. Faith is the direct work of the Holy Spirit --it is not something separate from the Holy Spirit.
Sorry, faith flows from us to God; please read the Greek for Heb12:2, "archegos" is leader, and "teleiotes" is chief example; God does not unilaterally create faith in His favorites.
And, NO, MONERGISM DOES NOT SAY WE DO NOTHING. but that God does it in us.
Notice that no one is engaging Deut30:12.
Our efforts do not increase his or make them any more valid or effective. Faith is, or isn't. Degree of faith is irrelevant, KIND of faith is not irrelevant.
We are to live by faith, beginning faith to ending faith; Rom1:17. Have to read a Greek commentary to understand, "from faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal".
 
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Ben johnson

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Don't hold your breath.
I'm allergic to blue anyway...
;)
I would like to, and if you were the only one to talk to I would do so, but there are too many here, plus, so far, what I HAVE read of what you have said do not do the job, so I have no expectation that you will show me anything I have not thought of or have not refuted at one time or another, nor even that any of them prove your thesis through a different reasoning.than I have heard or considered in the past.
Well, the verses I've posted are unresponded. That's okay -- many have read them, maybe a few Calvinistic brothers and sisters will be haunted in the wee hours of the night by those verses...

MOST of your posts I only hit the top one or two points and move on, for lack of time. It takes me a long time to post. I have become rather blind, just for starters, and it already has always taken me a long time to compose my writing.
I'm really sorry about your eyes; many times I have wished I had a "magic wand" -- I would fix your eyes, fix my back, fix a lot of people. Maybe we should pray for healing!

I mean none of this by insult. I simply don't have the time.
A TV preacher explained time -- when you're one and two years old, each year is half your life and takes forever. When you get to be our age, sneeze twice and a week (or month!) has flown by. The good thing is now I don't have to be sneaky to order from the Senior Menu in restaurants...
 
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Ben johnson

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There's some rather obvious logical sloughing going on there, I think. How is the inability to pursue righteousness by definition "insane"? Is not the will free to choose as it will?
Words mean things; and we have to be careful that each of us means the same thing when using the same words. For instance, "free will" to me means a person has the ability to make choices, either good or bad; when a Calvinist says "free will" he means an unregenerated person is free but WILL ONLY choose sin and rebellion against God (violating Lk8:13), but a sovereignly-regenerated person is free but WILL ONLY choose to believe because it's irresistible (violating Acts7:51, 1Cor10:13, and others).

And of course, eventually Calvinists will have to acknowledge there is nowhere in Scripture that places "new-heart" before belief.

Do they not make actual decisions? Is a person who hates everyone and repeatedly murders as many as he can counted insane? These people often choose good, they may intend good, but sin is still at their rotten core. They are not insane.
Generally insane is the inability to distinguish between right and wrong; this context is the inability to choose right or wrong. God's justice responds to faith (Rom3:26); throughout Scripture men are judged according to what they have done (Rom2:6-8, Rev20:13, etcetera). Your use of the word "decision" requires people to be able to choose between two or more paths after consideration; but Calvinism/Compatibilism says we cannot choose against our "God-decided-natures".

It also says no truly saved person can be persuaded away from Jesus (violating a bunch of verses, 2Cor11:3, 1Tim4:1, Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:17, and many more); nor can a person be persuaded TOWARDS God (what about Acts26:28-29? And Jn20:31, the whole letter was written to persuade readers to believe!).

You may say they are unwhole, lacking the Spirit of God indwelling them, and being slaves to sin (surely you agree they are slaves to sin, since you believe the Bible), if that makes you happy to say they are 'unwhole', but they are not insane.
"Sane" in this context is the ability to make decisions -- they can choose good, or evil; Calvinism denies it is within our ability to choose Jesus, because "that would be a good thing" and "no unregenerated person can choose good things" (this based on misunderstanding certain verses, especially 1Cor2:14).

If an unregenerated person cannot choose to change, then either Jesus did not KNOW that (or He was an idiot) when He rebuked people for not believing -- see Jn5:39-47: "If you had believed Moses, then you would believe Me! But if you DO NOT believe Moses, how will you believe My words? You are unwilling to come to Me to have life!" Pretty stupid words if they don't have the ability.

It's the same in Matt11:21-24; three cities are condemned for "willful unbelief" -- Jesus plainly saying "if Sodom, Gomorrah, Tyre and Sidon had seen the miracles you have seen, they would have repented! It will go better for THEM in the judgment than for you!" In what Universe can that fit with "no one can believe without sovereign prior heart-change"? Jesus openly rebuked them for unbelief even when they saw His miracles; it seems to me the choices are limited -- Jesus was an idiot (wasting words rebuking those who cannot change), or they really were able to believe. What else could have been happening?

Furthermore, if some of them are insane how are they not still at enmity to God, and relegated to damnation for that? You make the ability to choice, not will, the turning point, and that, you do out of your own reason and sensibilities, not out of scripture. Yet, I say even the insane can choose. Modern jurisprudence has no authority over God's judgement. If that bothers you, though, consider the fact that he looks on the heart to judge the deeds.
Will you help me understand what you think Jesus was doing in Jn5:39-47, and Matt11:21-24?
 
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Ben johnson

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That's a secondary (one of the Fifty-Seven-Secondaries thought to promote Sovereign-Predestined-Salvation). The refutation of "predestined-salvation" is in verse 21 --- "God is well pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe!"

Under Calvinism, the heart is regenerated first, changing the message from "foolish", to "wisdom"; but there is Paul saying God saves those who believe through foolishness --- so it is belief that changes the message from "foolish", to "wisdom".

Is there any way to deny this? If sovereign monergistic pre-belief-regeneration was the theme, how could it say "through-the-foolishness-of-the-message-preached"? How could it work? It can't, can it? Any defense?
This bears repeating. There are 57 or more "secondaries" thought to promote Sovereign Predestined Election; 1Cor1:18 is thought to teach that to the unregenerated the Gospel is foolishness, and someone's heart must be changed FIRST so they will no longer see it as "foolish" before they can be saved. But plainly in Paul's words, even though it at first seems foolish, God is pleased to save those who can believe through the foolishness; it is BELIEF that changes the Gospel from "foolish" to "wisdom", isn't it? What else fits Paul's words?
 
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Ben johnson

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I see I'm not the only one who doesn't always read whole the whole post. No, it does not say any such thing. This is not, in spite of how even some Calvinists use it, a verse to teach universal death by Adam. It only posits that the curse came no other way, but by Adam. So also, nobody is made alive but by Christ. This principle applies to EVERYBODY.

You are not listening, to pretend what I said shows unlimited atonement.
It was worth a shot. ;)

Atonement is not limited by God -- if we could discuss Acts17:26-31 that's one of many which solidly establishes that. The point in Rom5:17-19 is that justification is completely available to the same "all men", as who experienced condemnation. The precise wording is "SO THEN all, EVEN SO all". The second "all" is undeniably the same as the first "all". But (if I understand you correctly) you're imposing a restriction, classic Calvinism, "Justification may come to all men, but it does no good unless God enables any person to receive it". And nowhere in Scripture is "exclusive enabling". Matt22 (for instance) says "Many are called" (in context, everyone in view!) --- "but few are chosen" (in context, the ones who get chosen are the ones who decided by themselves to come and change clothes).

And there are still passages like Matt11:21-24, and John5:39-47 --- was Jesus unaware that God limits atonement? Those passages do not allow the idea...
 
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Ben johnson

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Isaiah 6:
9 ...“Go and tell this people:

“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
Good for you -- well done!

Now -- who actually closes their eyes and ears? You cited one of the Secondaries; another is John12:40 (which cites Is6:9), "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart" --- context, God did it.

Because the time machine is broken, we cannot go back and ask Jesus; or can we? Yes -- it's already asked and answered in Matt13:15

"For the heart of this people has become dull, with their ears they scarcely hear. And they have closed their eyes otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, return and I would heal them. But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear."

Wait -- did Jesus say they closed their OWN eyes and ears? That's exactly what He said! Jesus 100% espoused "Semitic View", identical to Ex10:1 ("God hardened Pharoah's heart"), while Ex9:34 (and 1Sam6:6) plainly state Pharaoh did it to himself. And THAT fits with Matt11:21-24, "Woe to you Bethsaida, Capernaum and Chorazin, if Tyre and Sidon had seen the things YOU have seen, they would have repented -- if even Sodom had seen the miracles you've seen, it would have remained until today! I tell you it will go better for THEM in the judgment than for you!"

Why? Why are Bethsaida, Capernaum, and Chorazin condemned? Because they were closing their eyes more than Tyre, Sidon, and even Sodom! Why did Jesus say "blessed are YOUR eyes BECAUSE you see"? Why didn't He say, "lucky are your eyes if God chooses to open them"?

Do you agree this is 100% established, Jesus also cited Is6:9 in Matt13, proving the Secondaries of Jn12:40 and Isaiah6:9 do NOT assign God as "closing-eyes-and-ears-against-salvation"?

Do you acknowledge the Secondary of 2Cor4:3-4 (the devil closes their eyes lest they see the light of the gospel) -- do you acknowledge this is "Semitic View", and that when a person turns to God, THEN the veil over his eyes is removed (2Cor3:16)?
 
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Ben johnson

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So he uses helkuo twice. Is this your hermeneutic? I could argue that it doesn't mean the same thing in all places, since your logic is poor, assuming it must since the same word is used. Some kind of magic you got going there, I don't know. But I'm not going there because I don't need to. God draws all people, I believe. Romans 1 gives one way this happens, so that they are without excuse. Nevertheless, it does not mean that God draws all with equal force. Nor does it mean that the drawing is for the purpose of convincing some to regenerate themselves.
But does God draw all people, sincerely? In my book I paint a "word-picture", a parent goes to the door and calls his children in to lunch. But his kids are DEAF; no problem, each has a hearing aid. But the devices are all OFF. So the parent pulls out an electronic transmitter and turns only SOME of the kids' hearing-aids on, only a few are enabled to hear the call! So he calls ALL, but only calls a few SINCERELY.

But then the analogy goes much farther; you see, those hearing-aids have connections into the children's BRAINS -- those who were enabled, joyfully come in to lunch (they find it irresistible!), but those who are not selected, even if they see the others coming in, do not desire to come in because their brains are wired to the hearing aids!

That's a pretty good analogy of how Calvinism sees things, isn't it? In no sense do the children with "turned-off-hearing-aids", get called. And God is not insincere!

We are proving by Scripture, that God turns all the hearing-aids on, and each person can turn his own back off -- aren't we? Matt13:15, Matt11:21-24, Jn5:39-47, Luke8:18 "take care HOW YOU LISTEN!"

Don't turn your ears and eyes off! "WHEN a man TURNS to the Lord (opens his own eyes!!!!!), the veil is (then!) removed!" 2Cor3:16!

Many are called --- all, and all are called effectively. Acts17:26-31! Conclusive!
 
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Ben johnson

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Again, Calling calvinism unjust is merely men making excuses to reject what God has said.
Calvinism by its own doctrines is unjust; God's justice responds to individual faith (Rm3:26), God's righteousness is revealed from our beginning faith to our ending faith, we are to live by faith, Rm1:17.

How we begin, is our choice; how we continue and end, is our constant choice. Shall we just mark out Rom11:18-23, Gal3:3 (and 4:9 and 5:7 and 5:4), 1Tim4:16, and dozens of others? Do you have enough ink for all the marking-out necessary to keep "Reformed Theology"?
 
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Brightfame52

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Calvinism by its own doctrines is unjust; God's justice responds to individual faith (Rm3:26), God's righteousness is revealed from our beginning faith to our ending faith, we are to live by faith, Rm1:17.

How we begin, is our choice; how we continue and end, is our constant choice. Shall we just mark out Rom11:18-23, Gal3:3 (and 4:9 and 5:7 and 5:4), 1Tim4:16, and dozens of others? Do you have enough ink for all the marking-out necessary to keep "Reformed Theology"?
Gods Justice was satisfied by Christs Blood, not mans faith. Dont put faith in the place of the Blood.
 
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Ben johnson

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Gods Justice was satisfied by Christ's Blood, not man's faith.
You're right on this. Yet, God is just and justifier of HE WHO has faith in Jesus. Rm3:26. God's justice responds to man's faith.

Don't put faith in the place of the Blood.
No one does that, BF. The question separating us is still, "Does God give faith to a few, or does God demand faith from men?" You notice that numerous times I have cited Acts17:26-31 (God puts people when and where they can search for Him and they can find Him, He's not far from anyone; He commands all men everywhere to repent, having furnished proof to all men by raising Jesus from the dead") --- but no one is willing to engage that.

Calvinism/Sovereign-Predestined-Salvation/Reformed-Theology founds on specific things --- first, monergistic heart-change-before-belief is absolutely the basis. 1Cor2:14 was tried to support that (natural men cannot believe in spiritual-things INCLUDING the Gospel because they only see it as foolishness); but 1Cor2:12-13 plainly says a person is taught those things by the RECEIVED Spirit, and "received" 100% denotes salvation (we must believe in Jesus and become saved, receive the Spirit, only THEN does the Spirit teach us the deeper spiritual things that natural men do not get). All 1Cor2:14 teaches is that natural men HAVE NOT believed, in no way does it assert they CANNOT.

Ezk36:26-27 was tried, but the parallel passage 11:18-19 says they remove abominations and detestable things BEFORE getting new hearts (one who has not turned to God does not remove abominations!). And Ezk18:30-31 says "cast away from yourself your sins --- MAKE FOR YOURSELVES a new heart and new spirit, God has no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies so repent and live!"

Recently 1Cor1:18 was tried (the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing); but verse 21 says God is pleased THROUGH the foolishness to save those who believe --- undeniably, "prior monergistic regeneration" would change the Gospel from "foolish" to "wisdom", so in no way could it say "through-the-foolishness"; in absolute terms it is belief that changes the Gospel from "foolish" to "wisdom", in those that believe. See if anyone can deny that there is no way "save-through-the-foolishness" can coexist with "prior-sovereign-heart-change"!

What almost always happens at this point in Calvinistic discussions, is that Calvinists will cease responding, the Scriptures are inarguable. But in a week or even a few days, people will be posting 1Cor2:14, Ezk36:26-27, 1Cor1:18, and many others --- as if nothing of "Sovereign-Predestined-Salvation" has ever been refuted.

Why do you think that is, Brightfame? Why doesn't clear Scripture convince everyone?
:confused:
 
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Mark Quayle

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But does God draw all people, sincerely? In my book I paint a "word-picture", a parent goes to the door and calls his children in to lunch. But his kids are DEAF; no problem, each has a hearing aid. But the devices are all OFF. So the parent pulls out an electronic transmitter and turns only SOME of the kids' hearing-aids on, only a few are enabled to hear the call! So he calls ALL, but only calls a few SINCERELY.

But then the analogy goes much farther; you see, those hearing-aids have connections into the children's BRAINS -- those who were enabled, joyfully come in to lunch (they find it irresistible!), but those who are not selected, even if they see the others coming in, do not desire to come in because their brains are wired to the hearing aids!

That's a pretty good analogy of how Calvinism sees things, isn't it? In no sense do the children with "turned-off-hearing-aids", get called. And God is not insincere!

We are proving by Scripture, that God turns all the hearing-aids on, and each person can turn his own back off -- aren't we? Matt13:15, Matt11:21-24, Jn5:39-47, Luke8:18 "take care HOW YOU LISTEN!"

Don't turn your ears and eyes off! "WHEN a man TURNS to the Lord (opens his own eyes!!!!!), the veil is (then!) removed!" 2Cor3:16!

Many are called --- all, and all are called effectively. Acts17:26-31! Conclusive!
No doubt something you write/ say is compelling to you, specially something you spent so much time coming up with and thinking about and it will take a lot to change your mind, But the analogy comes nowhere near to the Calvinist view. We do not create our children nor own their souls. The will is not like a hearing aid that is wired to the brain of a deaf person. The closest you come to right, is to call them deaf. If you want to talk about calling someone to supper go to the Scripture. It's got a great analogy. Salvation isn't some average supper.

Your notion of sincerity is also off. I imagine God's sincerity in his calling is a little like his sincerity in regeneration: The faith he gives is given in different measure, but the quality of the faith, whatever the measure, is the same. It is GOD in us producing the faith. There is no threshold amount that is just barely enough to do the job. Furthermore, It is not, nor can it be humanly produced.

Also, the notion of 'sincerity' applied to God is bogus. This is one of many things people say that demonstrate a poor understanding of the nature of Omnipotence. It is bad enough that one would try to assess God's sincerity, but no worse than to assess his desire against his ability. (As I've heard one person say, "Well, God didn't really mean for Adam to disobey." I suppose then, he didn't really mean for Christ to die??) What your'e really asking is whether God means what he says. God has no levels of sincerity.

The call was real. IF any had listened and obeyed they would have been saved. It is simple as that. But they close their ears, and cannot hear until God opens their ears. (Haha, this makes me think of a family I know --when one asks another a question, if the other person hears a voice, and even if they hear their name, they don't try to come closer or ask the other to speak louder, or even acknowledge the other had spoken. They just keep doing whatever they were doing, until the first person comes closer and asks again.)

You are all over the place with the wisdom - foolishness thing. I can't even get a cogent argument out of it, for me to refute.

You say all are called effectively --what does that mean? --that all are saved? Or only that the calling has an effect. Because it most certainly does have an effect! The Word of God will accomplish that for which it is sent. Nothing God does is useless or meaningless. But the effect is different for those whose hearts are changed than for those whose hearts remain at enmity with Christ. I don't get where you find this sort of semi-situation, this twilight zone of not =quite-dead, not-quite-alive.I really don't see how you can believe that God's plan for eternity hinges on the will and choice of fallen man, prior to the work of God.

We have repeatedly tried to get across to you the fact that Calvinism does NOT claim the believer does not choose, has no will, does not work, does not repent, does not receive, does not obey. That is ludicrous. We indeed say all that and more. But to say that God, who is ever alive (seems outrageous we are talking about this!) must wait for the dead to allow him to do what he planned from the beginning makes no sense at all.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Again, Calling calvinism unjust is merely men making excuses to reject what God has said.
Well, to be fair, it can be simple ignorance of what Calvinism teaches.
 
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Ben johnson

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No doubt something you write/ say is compelling to you, specially something you spent so much time coming up with and thinking about and it will take a lot to change your mind,
Not at all. What is compelling to me, is Scripture.
But the analogy comes nowhere near to the Calvinist view. We do not create our children nor own their souls.
There are parallel paths in Scripture—and all paths are valid, we are not allowed to throw out anything. Consider three of those paths:

1. God puts the “word-of-faith” in men’s hearts, sufficient that each is able to choose Jesus and eternal life, or sin and death. Romans is clear on that (especially 1:19-20, 2:2-11, 10:6-10 with the linked passage Deuteronomy 30:11-20).

2. Truly-saved people can become unsaved; 2Cor11:3 is clear, so is 1Jn2:26-28, Col2:6-8, Rev3:11, 1Cor9:25-27 and 2Cor13:5 (both use “adokimos”), Rom11:18-23, and so many more. All of 2Peter, all of James, all of Galatians, and the worst for all OSAS views is all of Hebrews—chapter by chapter sternly warning “don’t-fall-from-salvation”.

3. The heart is not regenerated UNTIL a person believes and receives Jesus and the Spirit; Titus3:5-6 is clear (connecting with “ekcheo” poured/received to Acts10:45 and 11:15-17), Ezk18:23 & 30-31, Isaiah 45:22 and Malachi3:7—and so many more. Everyone reading this has to be looking up these verses—what if they’re being mis-quoted???

the will is not like a hearing aid that is wired to the brain of a deaf person. The closest you come to right, is to call them deaf. If you want to talk about calling someone to supper go to the Scripture. It's got a great analogy. Salvation isn't some average supper.
The heart is sovereignly/monergistically made new (under Calvinism), and a new-hearted-person cannot resist believing and being saved, while an old-hearted-person cannot resist rebelling and falling. That is what the analogy illustrates, ultimately GOD controls who believes and receives Jesus and the Spirit, and who does not.

(PS—salvation is called “marriage supper of the Lamb”…)
 
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Ben johnson

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Your notion of sincerity is also off. I imagine God's sincerity in his calling is a little like his sincerity in regeneration: The faith he gives is given in different measure,
STOP—God does NOT give saving-faith to anyone! What verse makes you think that, Rom12:3? That is SEMITIC VIEW, it’s a literary way of saying, “as much faith as each person HAS”. Golly, Mark—the Greatest Commandment is TO LOVE GOD (Matt22:37), that would be insane nonsense if it’s really GOD who GIVES faith and the mindset of loving-God, TO certain persons! To my memory you haven’t engaged Acts 17:26-31, have you?

”Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation of your souls!” 1Pet1:9

Whose faith? God’s-faith that He GIVES a few (if they’re lucky), or our faith? Was Peter misinformed?

but the quality of the faith, whatever the measure, is the same. It is GOD in us producing the faith.
We just read 1Pet1:9, you and I; what do you think of Peter’s words when you also think ”God produces/gives faith to a few”? In Romans2:4-11 God’s patience kindness and forbearance are meant to lead us to repentance, but by our stubborn unrepentant hearts we store up wrath for ourselves for the day of judgment, when God will give to each according to what he has done; to THOSE WHO by perseverance in doing good seek glory honor and immortality, eternal life—but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, wrath; …for there is NO PARTIALITY with God!

Where in all of that is “GOD-GIFTS-FAITH-to-His-few-FAVORITES”? No, He doesn’t! His kindness is MEANT to lead men to repentance and faith, but those WHO refuse store wrath for themselves! How can I convince you that your doctrine just marks out or ignores clear verses? We cannot throw anything out, brother Mark! It all has to fit!

And I may not be able to convince you that we truly have “free will”, but I can certainly hold you accountable for the idea that “heart-change/regeneration comes before belief”—it does not, cite the Scripture you think supports that. It’s not Ezk36:26-27; it’s not 1Cor2:14, it’s not Jer17:9, it’s not Isaiah6:9 or John12:40, it’s not Rom8:7-8, where is it?

Besides, there is no such thing as “regeneration” without being “made-alive”, or “having-life” without “regeneration”—do you disagree? John said (Jn20:31) that he wrote the testament to PERSUADE people to believe --- and believing, they may THEN have life! What’s the defense against “regeneration/made-alive”, coming after belief?

There is no threshold amount that is just barely enough to do the job. Furthermore, It is not, nor can it be humanly produced.
Really! Was Jesus an idiot all the times He said, “be it done to you according to YOUR FAITH”? Or, “Your faith has made you well”! In Matt8:10 Jesus said, “Truly I have not found such faith in all of Israel! Go, it shall be done for you as you have believed!” Mark, God PUTS “the-word-of-faith” in EVERY heart and mouth, each of us then decides what to DO with it! Deut30:11-20, Rm10:6-10! Where is the debate?
 
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