Women Priests.

kiwimac

Bishop of the See of Aotearoa ROCCNZ;Theologian
Supporter
May 14, 2002
14,985
1,519
63
New Zealand
Visit site
✟590,115.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Utrecht
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
Women should not be teachers of the faith and the way and their teaching be regarded as sound doctrine or lead men individually spiritually but they can share their walk with God in trying to serve Him and be loving to others. That is they can encourage. Others should give opportunity to listen but even if one gets one thing wrong they can teach but it need not be agreed upon as doctrine as it is not their position to preach

Sexist rubbish!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Paidiske
Upvote 0

mikeforjesus

Senior Member
Supporter
Nov 14, 2004
3,876
272
37
✟570,944.00
Faith
Christian
No it is not it is the teaching of Paul women because they can influence others by pressure to believe something false as with Eve pressuring Adam not sure if they are more easily deceived but they can influence others to accept wrong are told not to have authority over men. They can speak and teach in churches about how they think one is to serve God but not to trust that in all matters of doctrine as teachers of the faith but just to encourage to serve God and how to show love to others to minister to others
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,110
19,005
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,140.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
All of us can influence others. It's an intrinsic part of human relationships, not an aspect of gender.

Anyway, we see Paul approving and working alongside women as teachers and leaders, so that argument is a non-starter.
 
Upvote 0

mikeforjesus

Senior Member
Supporter
Nov 14, 2004
3,876
272
37
✟570,944.00
Faith
Christian
Yes that is why I believed they had an equal right to be teachers to work but I still believe they did not have authority over men to be looked upon as the definers of the faith and to teach what is wrong from their opinion as an authority it is because of the weakness of men if women go astray and teach them and even if a woman is able to know the faith and teach it correctly which I did not know if they can be more easily deceived or not as Paul said it was the woman who was deceived but I think he may mean there can be a big problem if a woman is deceived if they do not they can exert pressure on men to be seen as bad if they do not follow what they say
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. James 3:2 (NKJV)

It matters not what English translation you use, it is the Greek and Greek grammar says when aner is used in the singular, it is male, when it is used of an undefined group it can be males and females (though not required to be so) You need to take it up with those who know Greek better than both of us.

And this does nothing to buttress your case that " A bishop must be a husband of one wife" is gender neutral in the use of both gender specific words.

Here is a very scholarly article showing why you have failed so far. He even cited Louw-Nida!

The Translation of 'Aner' in the Greek Bible

I agree. I've never said otherwise. But see above in my comment on aner. Do you remember what an idiom is, and how the literal words have no bearing on the meaning of the phrase?

Still waiting for you to prove the passage is an idiom. You have not done so. You just cite opinions and opinions are not proof! Just opinions. And if "husband of one wife" is the idiom- that has direct bearing on the literal " faithful to their spouse". raining cats and dogs has no bearinn on the literal it is raining very heavily today. I could go on and cite scores of other idioms.

You haven't proven that idioms develop over time. You haven't cited any expert that says so. And the material you provided listed idioms, but not how they developed. I'm sorry, you haven't given anything to support your case that idioms develop over time and can be traced.

Tell you what- prove husband of one wife is an idiom which is the longer standing claim you made first, then we can move on to other issues like this one that occurred in this conversation much later on.

It doesn't violate Greek grammar at all. And the opinion of my sources that I have posted is more than you have posted.

And the key word is opinion! I posted definitive definition and how Aner CAN be used when a group has undefined genders (plural only), but doesn't require it to be men and women. I gave concrete definitions from Greek speaking scholars ands grammar, you give opinions.

Seriously? You are denying that your purpose in this thread is to argue that women are disqualified from being priests, when clearly that is exactly what you are doing.

that is your bogotry bleeding out. I said I was simply defending what the Scriptures clearly and unambiguously teaches about the qualifications of a bishop and was accepted by all christendom for over a millenia and still accepted by the majority of Christendom. Even the Orthodox churches you used to defend their positions!! the do not ordain woman and never have and have no intention of doing so! So are you going to throw them in with me and say they are seeking to disqualify women. which is a misnomer. I cannot qualify or disqualify them at all! But when the bible disqualifies them here and further on in Timothy8 and in Corinthians as well, it is not I who disqualify, but the Inspired Word of God!

That argument works both ways. God could also have inspired someone to write, "Only men can be priests. Only men can be pastors." But he didn't.

He did, but in teh language of the day, which you reject!

Are you saying that you meet in a classroom, in person, with this "Doctor Fruchtenbaum"? And with his bachelors degree in Hebrew and Greek that makes him an expert? "Meh" was his answer?

Masters in Greek, Bachelors in Hebrews, Bachelors in biblical Archeology and THD in theology! thank you very much.

He reads teh bible in Hebrew and Greek almost exclusively and if you looked him up you would know a lot more than sitting here.
 
Upvote 0

Gregorikos

Ordinary Mystic
Dec 31, 2019
1,095
887
Louisville, Kentucky
Visit site
✟113,638.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Here is a very scholarly article showing why you have failed so far. He even cited Louw-Nida!
The Translation of 'Aner' in the Greek Bible

It's actually Wayne Grudem arguing against other Bible scholars, which is always laughable. Did you know that Wayne helped write the Colorado Springs Guidelines on Gender Related Language n Scripture? And that when they wrote those guidelines, they didn't know that adelphoi can refer to both men and women in a group!

Here is Grudem:

In standard English, we just don't say, "My brothers Ted and Thelma " So the Greek plural adelphoi sometimes has a different sense from English "brothers." In fact, the major Greek lexicons for over 100 years have said that adelphoi, which is the plural of the word adelphos. "brother," sometimes means "brothers and sisters" (see BAGD, 1957 and 1979, Liddell-Scott-Jones, 1940 and even 1869). This material was new evidence for those of us who wrote the May 27 guide-lines—we weren't previously aware of this pattern of Greek usage outside the Bible. Once we saw these examples and others like them, we felt we had to make some change in the guidelines. -Journal of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood 2:1 December 1996

Well isn't that embarrassing? Grudem and his buddies didn't know something any first year Greek student knows. And yet they were writing guidelines for the church at large for Bible translations!

But actually in the article you posted, Grudem makes my case:

Another example is Ephesians 4:13, which uses aner in a strikingly creative (and metaphoric) way:

Until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ (RSV)

Here Paul is probably connecting the church to the thought that Christ is the perfect man. So it is not at all clear that the male marking has disappeared from the base meaning on which the metaphor builds.


There, Grudem was saying that aner in Ephesians 4:13, even in a passage he seems to acknowledge refers to both men and women, didn't lose its semantic meaning of "a man," but that doesn't matter because Grudem says it is a metaphoric sense (i.e. it's idiomatic.) That's the same thing that's happening in 1 Timothy 3:2. That's the very thing I've been saying.

nolidad said:
And if "husband of one wife" is the idiom- that has direct bearing on the literal " faithful to their spouse". raining cats and dogs has no bearinn on the literal it is raining very heavily today. I could go on and cite scores of other idioms.

Your paragraph above is nonsensical. I have no idea how to respond.

nolidad said:
Tell you what- prove husband of one wife is an idiom which is the longer standing claim you made first, then we can move on to other issues like this one that occurred in this conversation much later on.

From the Biblical text it can only be observed that it appears to be an idiom. And one key to that observation is the parallel phrase:

Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, 1 Timothy 5:9 (NKJV)

In the Greek that is the identical expression to the one in 3:2 with the husband and wife reversed. So what do you think it means? It can't refer to polygamy, because women didn't do that back then. And it can't refer to a woman who had only been married once, because Paul clearly encouraged remarriage of widows. (5:14)

So what does "wife of one man" mean in 5:9 if it isn't any of the above and isn't an idiom for marital faithfulness?

nolidad said:
that is your bogotry bleeding out. I said I was simply defending what the Scriptures clearly and unambiguously teaches about the qualifications of a bishop and was accepted by all christendom for over a millenia and still accepted by the majority of Christendom. Even the Orthodox churches you used to defend their positions!! the do not ordain woman and never have and have no intention of doing so! So are you going to throw them in with me and say they are seeking to disqualify women.

Yes. Both you and the Orthodox church say that women aren't qualified to be priests, thus you disqualify women from the priesthood. This isn't difficult.

nolidad said:
He did, but in teh language of the day, which you reject!

That's nonsense. Paul could have come right out and said that women can't be priests or pastors in a clear and undeniable way. He did not do that in the " language of the day," or any other way.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
In standard English, we just don't say, "My brothers Ted and Thelma " So the Greek plural adelphoi sometimes has a different sense from English "brothers." In fact, the major Greek lexicons for over 100 years have said that adelphoi, which is the plural of the word adelphos. "brother," sometimes means "brothers and sisters" (see BAGD, 1957 and 1979, Liddell-Scott-Jones, 1940 and even 1869). This material was new evidence for those of us who wrote the May 27 guide-lines—we weren't previously aware of this pattern of Greek usage outside the Bible. Once we saw these examples and others like them, we felt we had to make some change in the guidelines. -Journal of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood 2:1 December 1996

And Grudem points out that adelphoi like andres (both plural male nouns) MAY, I repeat MAY include a group of known genders.

BUT BUT BUT Aner and gyne in Timothy are singular- thus mean a man and a woman! but nice try8 anyway!

That's nonsense. Paul could have come right out and said that women can't be priests or pastors in a clear and undeniable way. He did not do that in the " language of the day," or any other way.

Yeah He did, but because you have a different agenda in mind, you cannot accept that simple fact.


Yes. Both you and the Orthodox church say that women aren't qualified to be priests, thus you disqualify women from the priesthood. This isn't difficult.

Well I would question what subtle little scheme you may be hatching by using the word "qualified and disqualified". I just simply follow the simple , normal, usual, customary way people read this passage:

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife

Same for deacons and Paul even mention their wives twice!!!!!

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

And even your egalitarian self was forced to admit that gyne never can apply to a man either in the singular or plural! Sorry!


Your paragraph above is nonsensical. I have no idea how to respond.

I wouldn't expect you to. For you cannot prove it is an idiom. If you have no evidence it is an idiom, it is the height of hubris to say it is an idiom!


rom the Biblical text it can only be observed that it appears to be an idiom. And one key to that observation is the parallel phrase:

Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, 1 Timothy 5:9 (NKJV)

In the Greek that is the identical expression to the one in 3:2 with the husband and wife reversed. So what do you think it means? It can't refer to polygamy, because women didn't do that back then. And it can't refer to a woman who had only been married once, because Paul clearly encouraged remarriage of widows. (5:14)

So what does "wife of one man" mean in 5:9 if it isn't any of the above and isn't an idiom for marital faithfulness?

Well appearances can be deceptive and what evidence do you present to support your hypothesis that it appears to be an idiom!

1 Timothy 5:9
King James Version

9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man.

Well specifically it means she only had one husband! It implies faithfulness and that is fine- but it means SHE was faithful and not just a gender unknown person was faithful

But let me help yo understand what this passage means:

Let not = don't permit or allow

a widow= a WOMAN in this case as it is in the feminine construct.

be taken into the number = entered into the ranks of women who are helped by the church (that comes from other biblical sources, but if you want just the literal )= literal= to be enrolled or registeres

under three score years old= gotta be at least 60

having been the wife of one husband= a wife of only one husband. Just the opposite of 3:2 the husband of one wife!

See easy peasey! we don't need 85 egalitarian PHD's to tell us what this means. Heck even my 7 year old granddaughter can tell you what this means!
 
Upvote 0

kiwimac

Bishop of the See of Aotearoa ROCCNZ;Theologian
Supporter
May 14, 2002
14,985
1,519
63
New Zealand
Visit site
✟590,115.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Utrecht
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
Just as I do not take scientific advice from the Bible I similarly do not take it's 2000 year old advise on women and their supposed 'place in the church.' It is very simple Male and Female God makes 'em, Male and Female we ordain 'em.
 
Upvote 0

Gregorikos

Ordinary Mystic
Dec 31, 2019
1,095
887
Louisville, Kentucky
Visit site
✟113,638.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
having been the wife of one husband= a wife of only one husband. Just the opposite of 3:2 the husband of one wife!

OK, thank you, Mister Obvious, for telling us what the text says. The trick for you is going to be telling us what that means. Please do. Because the answer to that is critical for exegeting 3:2.
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟303,748.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It’s one thing when the earthly flesh (portrayed by animals) was being sacrificed. Quite another when the golden age of the gentiles is visited by the watchers to judge and find wanting, (never being under the law, the gentiles had intellectual morals as guides) and quite another still when the ax at the tree is to choose spirit above morals and beyond animal that need to be sacrificed. Not too difficult to therefore judge thyself so as not to be judged.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,382
5,501
72
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟602,036.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
having been the wife of one husband= a wife of only one husband. Just the opposite of 3:2 the husband of one wife!
So is this an argument for Monogamy, Strict Monogamy, or Serial Monogamy.

It also leaves open the question of the Virtuous Virgins?
 
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
4,507
921
America
Visit site
✟265,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
sparow said:
In my minimum experience women make good Priests; but does the Law allow for women priests; does the law forbid women priest? Does women Priests depend on the law being abrogated? Are women Priests a judgement on the inadequacy of men?

No church in Christ is going by levitical law for priests.

There were cultural differences in those times when women being pastors would not make as much sense, it is not good to generalize entirely from that.

~Cassia~ said:
It’s one thing when the earthly flesh (portrayed by animals) was being sacrificed. Quite another when the golden age of the gentiles is visited by the watchers to judge and find wanting, (never being under the law, the gentiles had intellectual morals as guides) and quite another still when the ax at the tree is to choose spirit above morals and beyond animal that need to be sacrificed. Not too difficult to therefore judge thyself so as not to be judged.

No animals being sacrificed was ever needed for effective atonement to reconcile any humans to Yahweh God. The law that God revealed made use of sacrificing widespread among early peoples, including the Hebrew people, permitting it within parameters for making clear people's need for atonement through the redeemer God would provide who would alone be effective for that. God is the Creator who always valued the lives of the creatures of God's creation. Sacrifice was always useless and offensive to God when it was without the realization and ignoring the value of the animals' lives.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
No church in Christ is going by levitical law for priests.
Nor are the churches which don't ordain women making the decision because of the Old Testament rules governing priests in the Hebrew religion.

There were cultural differences in those times when women being pastors would not make as much sense, it is not good to generalize entirely from that.
It seems that everybody who wants to do something that is forbidden by the Bible says that same thing. It certainly was the argument used when women were first ordained to the priesthood in The Episcopal Church--That was then, this is now. God has changed his mind, etc.

Probably half of the commands in Scripture could as easily be set aside using this same argument.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Probably half of the commands in Scripture could as easily be set aside using this same argument.
Or this one. - lol

Ephesians 2:15 NIV
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Hebrews 7:18 NIV
The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

Hebrews 10:9 NIV
Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Or this one. - lol

Ephesians 2:15 NIV
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Hebrews 7:18 NIV
The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

Hebrews 10:9 NIV
Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
Well, if the word of God itself instructs us that something has been set aside, that's different from us deciding to set aside something in God's word that we don't care for, right?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The reason I started this thread here is over there their statement of purpose prevented unbiased debate
No the office of overseer,pastor,Apostle, elder, presbyter etc....... in the N.T. is an office for men not women in the church. Men are the leaders and women are to be in submission to the men in the church and are not allowed to teach them.

1 Tim 2:11-15
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.


1 Corinthians 14:34
women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.


1 Corinthians 14:35
If they wish to inquire about something, they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is dishonorable for a woman to speak in the church.

Titus 2:5
to be self-controlled, pure, managers of their households, kind, and subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be discredited.


1 Timothy 2:11
A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness.

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet.

1 Peter 3:1
Wives, in the same way, submit yourselves to your husbands, so that even if they refuse to believe the word, they will be won over without words by the behavior of their wives.

Paul outlines the qualifications for church leadership which are men(elders).

Acts 14:23
When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

1 Tim 3:1-7
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Titus 1:5-9
5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless — not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.


1 Tim 2:11-15
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.


1 Tim 5:17-19
Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

1 Peter 3:1-6
In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. 3 Your adornment must not be merely external — braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.


1 Peter 5:1-5
Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 3 nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 5 You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble


James 5:14-15
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.

hope this helps !!!
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No the office of overseer,pastor,Apostle, elder, presbyter etc....... in the N.T. is an office for men not women in the church. Men are the leaders and women are to be in submission to the men in the church and are not allowed to teach them.

1 Tim 2:11-15
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.


1 Corinthians 14:34
women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.


1 Corinthians 14:35
If they wish to inquire about something, they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is dishonorable for a woman to speak in the church.

Titus 2:5
to be self-controlled, pure, managers of their households, kind, and subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be discredited.


1 Timothy 2:11
A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness.

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet.

1 Peter 3:1
Wives, in the same way, submit yourselves to your husbands, so that even if they refuse to believe the word, they will be won over without words by the behavior of their wives.

Paul outlines the qualifications for church leadership which are men(elders).

Acts 14:23
When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

1 Tim 3:1-7
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Titus 1:5-9
5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless — not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.


1 Tim 2:11-15
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.


1 Tim 5:17-19
Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

1 Peter 3:1-6
In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. 3 Your adornment must not be merely external — braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.


1 Peter 5:1-5
Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 3 nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 5 You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble


James 5:14-15
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.

hope this helps !!!
Have you seen this white paper by the AoG? The biblical presentation is very impressive. Much has been overlooked on the subject.

Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site | The Role of Women in Ministry
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Paidiske
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
  • Like
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Jay Sea

................ Ke ĉiuj vivu
Mar 28, 2020
340
161
81
victoria
✟26,347.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Let me ask a question. "Is Scripture to be read in it's cultural context?"
If not I feel saddened as there would be much I find difficult to reconcile with justice.
These are three Headlines in news papers

My violent assault, the bystanders who did nothing, and what it means to bear witness

SOLDIER SAYS SHE WAS SEXUALLY ASSAULTED BY 22 TROOPS AT OKLAHOMA BASE

“10 years for protest, 5 years for rape”: Demonstrators protest a policing bill in England and Wales

WHY??? Is this because we do not admit women fully into our society. Does G-d really want us to exclude anyone from leadership in "His Kingdom NOW".
Let us speak up for the women we know and those whom we do not know.
Let us call out any assaults or intimidation we witness, and make this God's Kingdom NOW a reality for all.

In LOve
Jay Sea
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
4,507
921
America
Visit site
✟265,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No church in Christ is going by levitical law for priests.

There were cultural differences in those times when women being pastors would not make as much sense, it is not good to generalize entirely from that.

No animals being sacrificed was ever needed for effective atonement to reconcile any humans to Yahweh God. The law that God revealed made use of sacrificing widespread among early peoples, including the Hebrew people, permitting it within parameters for making clear people's need for atonement through the redeemer God would provide who would alone be effective for that. God is the Creator who always valued the lives of the creatures of God's creation. Sacrifice was always useless and offensive to God when it was without the realization and ignoring the value of the animals' lives.

Albion said:
Nor are the churches which don't ordain women making the decision because of the Old Testament rules governing priests in the Hebrew religion.

It seems that everybody who wants to do something that is forbidden by the Bible says that same thing. It certainly was the argument used when women were first ordained to the priesthood in The Episcopal Church--That was then, this is now. God has changed his mind, etc.

Probably half of the commands in Scripture could as easily be set aside using this same argument.

No one was ordaining priests in the Bible outside of the old testament rules.

Women are not second class citizens. It is not God's purpose to keep women from what they are given capacity to do, if such is not sin for anyone else.

Any of what was said did not deny God's word, rather there is no need to extrapolate from specific addresses for local circumstances to all believers, or all people, generally. Do women in your church keep their heads always covered in congregating with other believers? According to the understanding you express that is what they need to do. There are other such specifics to attend to. Understanding God should though include desire to find and live according to the perfect will of God. I do what I can for that, how about you? There is biblical basis to see for relevance to that. If we sin we disobey God, if we are repentant believers we turn from that to not continue in that.

Galatians 3:27-29 "As as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Matthew 7:12 "Therefore, whatever you want others to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."
 
Upvote 0