The Parousia of Antichrist

grafted branch said:

Ok so we are in agreement that the Wicked (one) is a spirit correct? Our only difference here is that you believe the spirit comes as a man where I believe it comes as a spirit.

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No the Wicked one is a person, a human being. He will be possessed by a spirit coming out of the bottomless pit. But he will be a human being.

grafted branch said:

2 Thessalonians was written approx. 53 A.D. 1 John was written well after that, so it reasonable to think that 1 John 2:18 is referencing the revealing in 2 Thessalonians that shall come after 53 A.D. As ye have heard (in 53 A.D.) that Antichrist shall come.

John knew it was the last time because there were many antichrists at that time. The only logical conclusion I can make here is that Antichrist is a spirit and was present when 1 John was written

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The gospel book according to John; the espistles of John; Revelation written down by John

In John 5:43 - the another that the Jews will accept coming in his own name instead of Jesus who came in the name of the Lord.

In John 12:12-15 - Jesus arriving in Jerusalem hailed as the messiah, King of Israel, coming in the name of the Lord. 4 days later rejected by Jerusalem, the Jews, as their King of Israel messiah, crucified. On what Christians now commemorate as "Good Friday", today April 2, 2021.

That's the background for them in 1John2:18 John was speaking to. They connected the Christ as being the King of Israel messiah, and the Antichrist as the another the Jews would accept as the King of Israel messiah, but who comes in his own name.

That person will speak against Jesus having been the messiah. That will be one of his traits as the Antichrist.

There were some in John's day who had departed the church, and were speaking against Jesus being the messiah denying that He was the Son of God. So John likened them to the trait of the coming Antichrist by calling them antichrists.

The spirit of Antichrist is the attitude of opposing that Jesus was the Christ, the King of Israel messiah, the Son of God.

Douggg said:

The beast makes war against and overcomes the great tribulation saints. They are not called the church at that time. In Revelation 7, the great multitude, their souls in heaven, are them who have come out of the great tribulation by dying during that time.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

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The church is already in Paradise in Revelation 7. Those harvested in the Trumpets and later are resurrected to earth in Revelation 20:4. Those harvested while the angels and Jesus are on earth are not part of the church in Revelation 7. Those harvested after Revelation 7 and the 7th Seal are not the group in Revelation 7. They are the group judged by the church in Revelation 20:4. The church is raptured, caught up. The church is not harvested by angels.

grafted branch said:

I think the AOD is the first sacrifice made after the veil was torn. It’s an abomination because it denies that Jesus was the Lamb and the sacrifices they are making can’t forgive sins so they are now desolate.

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That was then in Herod's temple perhaps. The AC is the abomination of desolation in the coming temple. The AC was not a sacrifice in the first century. The AC will be an image set up in a new temple. The one some argue cannot happen.

What is the transgression of desolation @Douggg ?

grafted branch said:

Ok, but they also would have been aware of John 4:23-24 we now worship the Father in spirit and truth and God is Spirit. It seems just as likely that those who understood that Christ was indeed the King but didn’t reign physically would also understand that Antichrist would not be a physical earthly king.

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The ones John was speaking to in 1John2:18 were coming from a generation upon generation of Jewish background that the messiah would be the King of Israel, descended from king David. A human being king.

grafted branch said:

If Antichrist is a false Christ and he tries to rule physically believers would immediately know he was false. So when 1 John 2:18 says there are many Antichrists I find it hard to believe that it’s referring to many who were claiming to be Israel’s physical king.

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Calling them in John's day who departed the church as antichrists - was not implying that they were Israel's physical king. But that they were displaying the traits of the coming Antichrist.

I will give an example of a modern day antichrist (the kind that John was referring to as the many antichrists). On you tube there is an individual name Yusuf Estes. He has many many videos. He was once a christian preacher. But he left Christianity and became a muslim. Who now denies that Jesus is the Son of God.

friend of said:

What is the transgression of desolation @Douggg ?

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I note it on my Anytime Rapture view chart. The 2Thessalonians2:4 act.




In Daniel 8, the little horn person will commit the transgression of desolation (after he becomes the Antichrist). Here is the verse containing the term.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

A transgression is a violation. What the person does is violates the Mt. Sinai covenant that he, as the Antichrist, will have confirmed earlier in a big speech from the temple mount to start the 70th week. The fundamental basis for the Mt. Sinai covenant is that God is the only God and there is no other.

Well, about three years go by, and the person (as the Antichrist) gets it into his head and heart that he has achieved God-hood, goes into the temple, sits, showing that he is God and above all that is called God. 2Thessalonians2:4.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Up to the point of committing that act, the Jews will be believing that he is the messiah, King of Israel.

Which being the King of Israel, but coming in his own name is the role of being the Antichrist.

When the person commits the act, it will shatter the Jews belief in the person as being the messiah. And they will reject him from continuing as their King. Ending his time as the Antichrist.

Next role for the person is that he becomes the beast. The series of events that follow his claim of having achieved God-hood - in Ezekiel 28:1-10, God has the person killed for his audacious act. The person will probably be assassinated because in those verses, it says God brings strangers against him.

So he is killed and his soul ends up in hell, mocked there. Isaiah 14:16-20. His soul is only in hell for a few days, because his body is never buried and placed in a tomb, indicated in those verses v18-20. God in disdain for the person brings him back to life. It will be the strong delusion God sends to them who had believe his claim of having achieved God-hood, i.e. becoming God.

The person will sit up in his casket - with the camera's rolling. And the world be dumbfounded. Revelation 17:8b. It is then that he has become the beast of Revelation 13.

What's the difference between the little horn and the antichrist? Thanks @Douggg

Dave G. said:

Well regardless of any of that the bottom line is the unbelievers get deceived. People should heed the verses following verse 10 because the implication is once events unfold there is big trouble. That's the real point here and you see/hear very few preaching on this. Those folks will be unable to accept the Lord because of their unbelief in the time appointed to them. We could say while Jesus was available in the church age, the age of grace. That period of time, the grace age is now, we right now are still living in it.

The AntiChrist is that he is a real man with Satan's powers, call it a spirit in him if you prefer, that of Satan's. Any other antichrist was any opposition or opposing views or common person against Christ through out history, they were anti Christ. These had no supernatural powers. This one in 2 Thess is more than that and with supernatural powers. You need to be sealed by the Holy Spirit to resist this one.

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do you listen to yourselves man?

" Well regardless of any of that the bottom line is the unbelievers get deceived. " why such a complete lack and disregard for people?

friend of said:

What's the difference between the little horn and the antichrist? Thanks @Douggg

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The person when he is in the role of being the little horn is that of being the king, leader, of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7, the Roman Empire. And is associated with 10 subordinate kings of the fourth kingdom.

Differently when he is in the role of being the Antichrist, he is the King of Israel (for about three years). Jesus was the rightful King of Israel, but was rejected by his own people.

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In both Daniel 7 and 8 the person's end comes in those two chapters.

But because information about the person had been introduced incrementally over time, in later books of the bible... i.e. the gospel books, the epistles, and Revelation.... Daniel 7 and 8 don't contain in those two chapters that he will be the King of Israel, nor later killed and come back to life as the beast.

If we had Daniel 7 and 8 alone and nothing else about the person, it would just appear that the person is associated with the fourth kingdom - the Roman Empire. And there is nothing in Daniel 7 and 8 of the person being killed and come back to life.

Revelation is really what ties all of the roles of the person together.

little horn, beast - king of the Roman empire.
Antichrist - king of Israel.

Douggg said:

The person when he is in the role of being the little horn is that of being the king, leader, of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7, the Roman Empire. And is associated with 10 subordinate kings of the fourth kingdom.

Differently when he is in the role of being the Antichrist, he is the King of Israel (for about three years). Jesus was the rightful King of Israel, but was rejected by the Jews.

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In both Daniel 7 and 8 the person's end comes in those two chapters.

But because information about the person had been introduced incrementally over time, in later books of the bible... i.e. the gospel books, the epistles, and Revelation.... Daniel 7 and 8 don't contain in those two chapters that he will be the King of Israel, nor later killed and come back to life as the beast.

If we had Daniel 7 and 8 alone and nothing else about the person, it would just appear that the person is associated with the fourth kingdom - the Roman Empire. And there is nothing in Daniel 7 and 8 of the person being killed and come back to life.

Revelation is really what ties all of the roles of the person together.

little horn, beast - king of the Roman empire.
Antichrist - king of Israel.

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The Interpretation of the Vision

Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Dan 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.


Antiochus Epiphanes 167 BC.

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

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Jesusfann777888 said:

do you listen to yourselves man?

" Well regardless of any of that the bottom line is the unbelievers get deceived. " why such a complete lack and disregard for people?

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Disregard ? One woman finally came to Jesus last summer after more than 40 years of prayer for her. Disregard would have been to not witness and still do nothing. Listen before last summer she was among the lost. Period. Did we love her? Of course. But Scripture says that she was among the lost, the fact of the matter is she was not His....

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12..
10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Her name is Donna, the day she accepted Jesus I shook to the core, tears flowed down my face and I praised God and yelled to Him, " she is yours now " ! Only 3 people in my life have given me that reaction, the hardest core of the lost to have finally turned. Another was a male, 10 years prayer on him. And my 46 yo old son still refuses, he digs his heals in. He knows the truth but won't give self up. It angers him he might have to do something someone else's way, that someone else happens to be Jesus Christ. Listen, we don't quit, we pray, we witness, we hope, we trust, we love. But we also accept the truth.

BABerean2 said:

The Interpretation of the Vision

Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Dan 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.


Antiochus Epiphanes 167 BC.

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

.

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23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

I've been over that many times with you.

The kingdom in v23 is that of the transgressors. It is not the four kingdoms carried over from v22. It is not kingdoms in v23.

The transgressors are the host given to the little horn person.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

In Daniel 7, the little horn person comes up from among ten kings of the fourth kingdom - the Roman Empire. And little horn is over those ten kings.

In Daniel 8:25, the little horn person stands up against the Prince of princes - Jesus. Antiochus lived not in the time of the end. And lived 160 years before Jesus.

BABerean2 said:

Antiochus Epiphanes 167 BC.

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

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Was Antiochus there in Jerusalem, to stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus?

Dave G. said:

. And my 46 yo old son still refuses, he digs his heals in. He knows the truth but won't give self up. It angers him he might have to do something someone else's way, that someone else happens to be Jesus Christ.

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I suspect pushing too much theology on him. Suggest to your son to make this one line prayer to God...
"If Jesus is your way, then I accept him." off by himself, when he is alone.

That's what i did 50 years ago. No-one around. No-one pressuring me. And without the theology to sort through and process.

Douggg said:

In Daniel 7, the little horn person comes up from among ten kings of the fourth kingdom - the Roman Empire.

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True. The historical Roman papacy.

Douggg said:

And little horn is over those ten kings.

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False. It subdued three kings, not ten. (Daniel 7:24)

Douggg said:

Was Antiochus there in Jerusalem, to stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus?

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Did you not realize Antiochus died before Jesus was born?

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Douggg said:

I suspect pushing too much theology on him. Suggest to your son to make this one line prayer to God...
"If Jesus is your way, then I accept him." off by himself, when he is alone.

That's what i did 50 years ago. No-one around. No-one pressuring me. And without the theology to sort through and process.

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I mostly pray at this point. He's had the witness and his oldest sister ( she will be 51 in a week lol, can't believe it) does the devotionals and a few scriptures he has asked for since their mom's/ my wife's passing back in Dec. We pray the Spirit opens his heart. He knows my salvation story ( not so different from yours ). We pray here pretty much every night and every day in zoom bible study and devotional time that the Spirit moves in his heart. Or a Christian pier will come in with some obscure word that triggers something in him. He's all locked up in the spirit, a log jam. I don't tell him that but as his dad I can see it.

BABerean2 said:

Did you not realize Antiochus died before Jesus was born?

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Do you not realize the little horn person stands up against the Prince of princes -Jesus. Antiochus was 160 years before Jesus - so how could he stand up against Jesus? And Antiochus did not live time of the end.

jgr said:

True. The historical Roman papacy.

False. It subdued three kings, not ten. (Daniel 7:24)

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In Revelation 17:17, the ten kings hand their kingdom over to the beast.

In Daniel 7, the little horn removes 3 kings. It is not clear whether the 3 kings are part of the ten. Or that 3 of the original ten are removed and replaced. Either way, by the time the person becomes the beast, he is over those ten kings of Daniel 7.