DavidPT
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Where does Jesus say the "tribulation of those days" refers to the end? But let's instead look at what Jesus does say here.
He speaks of the sun becoming dark, the moon not shining, etc. Where else do we see this?
"And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, you young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." - Joel 2:28-32
So, okay then, that means that all these things will happen at the end, these are the end times certainly, right? Except, aren't these words familiar?
They are, because this is the passage St. Peter quotes on Pentecost,
"So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, 'Whatever could this mean?' Others mockingly said, 'They are drunk on new wine.'
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, 'Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these here are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But rather this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. And on My manservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; and they shall prophesy.
I will show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'" - Acts of the Apostles 2:12-21
Well now hold the phone a minute, if Joel was talking about "the end times", then why does Peter say this has been fulfilled then, with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost?
There's also this phrase, "the day of the Lord", that's interesting too. It shows up several times in the Old Testament, for example,
"For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. And you shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.
Remember the law of My servant Moses, the statutes and the rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction." - Malachi 4:1-6
This also is interesting, where have we heard this coming of Elijah to turn fathers to children and children to fathers? Right, in the Gospels,
"Now while [Zechariah] was serving as priest before God when his division was on duty, according to the custom of the priesthood, he was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense. And the whole multitude of the people were praying outside at the hour of incense. And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. And Zechariah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said to him, 'Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice in his birth, for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. And he will turn away many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God, and he will go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.'" - Luke 1:8-17
So John is the Elijah who was to come, yes? Well if there were any confusion, our Lord Jesus Christ tells us quite plainly that yes, John is the promised Elijah,
"Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.'" - Matthew 11:11-15
Elijah was to come before that great day, and John the Baptist did that. And Peter says that the day of the Lord, with darkened sun and moon and the shaking of the heavens was fulfilled when he was speaking then and there on Pentecost.
Well yeah, it is kind of sounding like the "day of the Lord" is about Christ's first advent, at the very least. Elijah came before the day of the Lord - check.
The Holy Spirit would be poured out on the day of the Lord - check.
With the coming of the Lord, and the inauguration of His public ministry through His baptism in the Jordan, culminating in His death, resurrection, and ascension, where He no is seated at the right hand of the Father in glory, with all power, kingdom, and authority these things have been fulfilled. And we are living in that time of the "last days", and inf act we have been for the last two thousand years.
There's also that interesting statement in Joel, that on that day all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
"For the Scripture says, 'Everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing the riches on all who call on Him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" - Romans 10:11-13
So in that great and awesome day, when all who call upon the name of the Lord, it's the going forth of the Gospel to all nations, to Jew and Gentile without discrimination. So that, indeed, all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. That's the Gospel.
But what about when our Lord says they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds into His kingdom?
Well, this comes straight out of Daniel,
"I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a Son of Man, and He came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom; that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom one that shall not be destroyed." - Daniel 7:13-14
Notice what's interesting here, the Son of Man isn't coming down from heaven here, but is taken up into heaven, before the Ancient of Days. He is taken up, on the clouds, and given everlasting kingdom, power, and authority.
"And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.'" - Matthew 28:18
"And when He had said these things, as they were looking on, He was lifted up, and a cloud took Him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as He went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw Him go into heaven.'" - Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11
The Son of Man, taken up on the clouds before the Ancient of Days to receive all kingdom, power, and authority.
To be seated at the right hand of the Father. Where our Lord Christ now reigns as King of kings and Lord of lords, even until the day He returns in glory.
We are living in the day of the Lord, we have been; these are the last days, they have been for two thousand years. The shaking of the heavens is apocalyptic language, because the heavens were shaken and the earth was likewise shook--some of this quite literally when our Lord was crucified. The previous order of things passing, and the new arising--with our Lord Jesus' death and resurrection, taking His Throne as the King Messiah at the right hand of the Father. This is the Messianic Age, the age between the Messiah's first and second comings. The present age of sin and death is passing away, perishing; and in Christ the new has come and is coming. It is both now and not yet, the nearly ubiquitous eschatological tension that runs throughout the entire New Testament.
One day, this old age will finally be no more, for God will make all things new and be all-in-all. When our Lord returns in Judgment, the dead are raised, and there is the restoration of all things.
But here and now, there is the fading of the old and the rising of the new--it's in we ourselves as redeemed sinners, redeemed by grace through faith. So that what is promised is ours now by faith, behold only through the eyes of faith; but then on that Last Day we shall see with our sight. Though our skin might be destroyed, yet with our flesh shall we see God.
Jesus is not talking about a future tribulation, He is not talking about a future "end times". Not here at least.
-CryptoLutheran
One thing that is clear, at least to me anyway, the trib of those days in question, they are meaning before the sun goes dark, etc. If you take the part about the sun going dark having to do with the day of Pentecost, this indicates that the trib of those days precede that event, not follow it. What great trib, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, preceded the day of Pentecost?
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
As can be plainly seen from the text, first there is the trib of those days followed by shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
IMO, you don't have any valid arguments here, that according to the chronology of events shown from Matthew 24:29.
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