So the rest of Christianity is false?
The Old Covenant was in effect until Christ's death on the cross (Hebrews 9:16-17). Jesus lived and died under the Law of Moses. Hence his teachings like "if you do not forgive men, neither will your heavenly Father forgive you." As opposed to the the New Covenant teaching:
John 6:28–29 (AV)
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
This is rightly dividing the word of truth (the Bible).
Or Old Covenant teaching: "if your eyes cause you to sin gouge them out... better to enter life with one eye than hell with two...
as opposed to:
Ephesians 2:8–10 (AV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
And the by faith only passages:
John 3:16-18 / John 16:26-27 / Romans 3:22 / Romans 4:11 / 2 Thessalonians 1:10 etc.
No works, no rites or rituals. No water baptisms. Only believe.
About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusions to the OT, so much of what is said in the OT is reiterated in the NT, which means that Christians who only follow what is reiterated are correct, just not fully correct. God's law is truth and in John 8:31-36, it is sin transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage, while it is the truth that sets us free, so someone is in bondage to the degree that they are not aligned with the full truth of God's word.
I'd be with you on that, if that's what the New Testament actually taught. But it doesn't.
Like my last pastor (who's mentor is a leading expert in Messianic Judaic theology) said "I can make this book say anything I want it to".
The Mosaic Law is God's word, and the NT also says to sanctify them in the truth and that God's word is truth (John 17:17).
So we can make the Bible say that followers of God should follow what He has commanded and we can make it say that followers of God shouldn't follow what God has commanded. It seems to me that we should expect people who join a religion to have a desire to want to learn how to follow the rules of that religion. For example, it would be bizarre for someone to want to become a Muslim while not wanting to follow Allah's laws. In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for the Torah, so seems equally bizarre to me that Gentiles would observe Jewish believers practicing their religion and decide that they want to become a member while not wanting to follow the laws for how to practice their religion. It just seems really bizarre to me the times when people have called me a heretic for holding the position that followers of God should follow what He has commanded and it seems far more problem that the ones turning the Bible against obeying what God has commanded are the ones guilty of making it say what they want it to. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet was if they taught against obeying the Torah, so God simply did not leave his people any room to follow anyone trying to do that.
And this is common reasoning being used in this theology, drawing conclusions nowhere supported in the NT, and many times denied in the NT.The Mosaic Law was given to give us knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so any of the many verse in the NT that is calling for Gentiles to repent from their sins is calling for Gentiles to obey it.
In Romans 10:4-10, Christ is the goal of the Mosaic Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. This faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what it means to confess that Jesus is Lord.
Jesus did not come to start his own religion following a different God, but rather he came to bring fulness to Judaism as its Jewish Messiah in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. He practiced Judaism by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and by teaching his followers how to obey it by word and by example. In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for the Torah, which means that all Christians were Torah observant Jews for roughly the first 7-15 years after Christ's resurrection up until the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10, so Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as its prophesied Messiah, and that is the form of Christianity that I seek by faith to practice.
And this is common reasoning being used in this theology, drawing conclusions nowhere supported in the NT, and many times denied in the NT.
It's a circular associative hermeneutic:
Mosaic law = revelation of sin = repent from sin = obey Mosaic law
Using this hermeneutic, I can make the NT say anything I want it to say.
But in the NT, it is
Mosaic law = revelation of sin = unrighteousness = condemnation
sacrifice of Christ = ceremonial law abolished (Eph 2:15) = obey Jesus's law
(Matthew 22:37-41; Romans 13:8-10)
In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came not to abolish the Mosaic Law and warned those who would relax the least part of it or teach others to do the same, so saying that he abolished any of its laws is calling Jesus a liar and disregarding his warning. Furthermore, in Romans 3:31, Paul also confirmed that our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds yet, yet your faith does not upholds it, and you are trying to abolish it. Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, and in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so saying that Jesus abolished any laws undermines what he accomplished through his ministry and through the cross. Laws for how to testify about Christ's nature can't be abolished without first abolishing Christ.
All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), but Ephesians 2:15 is referring to laws that are not eternal, therefore it is not referring to any of God's laws. God did not make any mistakes when He gave the law, so He had no need to abolish His own eternal laws. God did not give any laws for the purpose of creating a dividing wall of hostility, but rather His law instructs us to love our neighbor as ourselves. The Bible never lists which laws Paul considered to be ceremonial and never even refers to that as a subcategory of law, so I'm not seeing any justification for interpreting Ephesians 2:15 as referring to abolishing ceremonial laws.
The greatest two commandments are the greatest two because they are inclusive of all of the other commandments, which are all examples of what it means to love God and our neighbor.
What is this disposition of resistance to/denial of/against Jesus' NT revelation, given by him personally in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-5)?
Belief, without actual belief?
Really strange. . .
I did not deny anything in the NT, but I do deny interpretations of the NT that make it out to be speaking against obeying God. None of the authors of the NT had the authority to countermand God even if that was something they had wanted to do. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, God did not give His people any room to follow anyone who teaches against obeying the Mosaic Law, and the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if you should be quicker to disregard everything any man has said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, though the reality is that no one in the NT spoke against obeying anything that God has commanded.
If you are referring to the Decalogue, I agree, Christians are not free to violate it.P1: God has revealed what sin is through what is in transgression of the Mosaic Law
P2: We should repent from doing what God has revealed to be sin.
C: Therefore, we should obey the Mosaic Law.
This is sound deductive argument and there is nothing about it that means that you can make the NT say anything that you want.
That would be completely uninformed of NT teaching given to Paul by Jesus Christ personally,Thinking that God gave the Mosaic Law with the goal of condemning his children is expressing an extremely poor opinion of God when in reality God can be trusted to give us laws that are for our own good in order to bless us and to teach us how to walk in His ways (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).
That's what that verse says. But overall the NT does not teach what you're trying to get it to teach though selective verse pulling.
Well there are "rules" regarding Christianity called theology and doctrine. That which is outside of orthodox theology and doctrine, is "breaking the rules", which is why people are calling you a heretic. I don't know enough about Messianic Judaism to know if what you're saying aligns with it, or if you've developed a personal version of it. But I do have an expert to consult, if I get around to it. Based on several years of extensive teaching from him, I'm pretty sure he's going to tell me exactly what's wrong with what you're saying.
If you are referring to the Decalogue, I agree, Christians are not free to violate it.
That would be completely uninformed of NT teaching given to Paul by Jesus Christ personally,
in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-5).
"All who rely on observing the law (for justification) are under a curse" (of Deuteronomy 27:26). Galatians 3:10
The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Mosaic Law and it is more of a stretch to interpret people who consider the Psalms to be Scripture as though they were in disagreement with the Psalms than as though they were in agreement with the Psalms. So I interpreted the NT as though its authors were in complete agreement with the Psalms and found that it made much more sense and had much continuity that I had previously given it credit for. Overall the NT consistently teaches what I have been teaching. If we believe that the who NT is true, then you should fit the verses that I have been citing into your doctrine.
I just think it is bizarre that position that followers of God should follow what God has commanded is holding an opinion that is at odds with what is generally accepted by followers of God. There are different flavors of Christianity in different denominations and even within a different denomination, so there are likewise different flavors within Messianic Judaism. I'd be interested to hear why he thinks I'm wrong, though it is also for your own good to be able to articulate why you think that I am wrong.
Different flavors. In other words you're making stuff up. Which is why it sounded so forgien to me, despite having a semi Messianic background.
In the New Covenant we focus on Christ's law of love of God and neighbor, rather than works of the law and, thereby, fulfill the law (Matthew 22:37-41; Romans 13:8-10).Christ taught obedience to the Mosaic Law by word and by example and followers of Christ are not free to violate what he taught.
A distinction without a difference, which purpose is to create another way of salvation apart from faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ.Again, I agree with everyone in the NT, but I do agree with interpretations of it that make it out to be against obeying God. I have never supported the position that we should rely in works of the law in order to earn our justification. In Galatians 3:10 those who were relying on works of the law were under curse because they were relying on them instead of relying on the Book of Law.
You know better than that as well as I do.Paul associated a quote from Leviticus 18:5 with a quote from Habakkuk 2:4, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law,
Are "the law" and the "Mosaic law" different? Please explain the difference.while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith, unlike the Mosaic Law.
And here we have the false construct creating a way of salvation apart from faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and reconciliation with God.God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to rely on the Mosaic Law is to rely on the Lawgiver, while to deny that the Mosaic Law is of faith is to deny that the faithfulness of the Lawgiver.
Actually, the body of Christ is the church, which goes all the way back to Abraham.Hi and what I see , that the division is between Israel and the BODY OF CHRIST !
And that division begins at ACTS 9:6 where Saul was saved .
The verses are in 1 Tim 1:15 where it says , that Jesus came into the world to save sinners , of whom I AM PROTO / FIRST !
Also in verse 16 , THAT IN ME [ PROTO / FIRST show forth all long suffering for a PATTERN OF THE ONES COMING TO BELIEVE ON HIM UNTO EVERLASTING LIFE >
This is where the BODY OF CHRIST BEGAN .
dan p
In the New Covenant we focus on Christ's law of love of God and neighbor, rather than works of the law and, thereby, fulfill the law (Matthew 22:37-41; Romans 13:8-10).
A distinction without a difference, which purpose is to create another way of salvation apart from faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
You know better than that as well as I do.
Are "the law" and the "Mosaic law" different? Please explain the difference.
And here we have the false construct creating a way of salvation apart from faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and reconciliation with God.
Faith in the law is not faith in Jesus Christ, and you know that.
Faith in the law does not save, only faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ saves, and you know that.
You are trying to create a fig leaf whereby those who deny Jesus Christ are, nevertheless, covered from God's wrath with a faith which is not in Jesus Christ and his atoning work, which is the only faith that saves (John 3:18, John 3:36). . .and you know that!
Anathema! (curem)
Do you think this is God-honoring. . .trying to do an end run around his salvation through faith in his one and only Son?
The focus of the Mosaic Covenant was on Christ law of love of God and neighbor rather than works of the law. The greatest two commandments are a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave all of the other commandments to teach us how to correctly obey them, so if someone's obedience to the greatest two commandments does not involve obedience to God's other commandments, then they are not treating the greatest two as being the fulfillment of the other commandments.
There you go with that perverted gospel that gives salvation to those, such as Orthodox Jews, who have faith in the law but deny Jesus Christ. . .and you know better than that.The authors of the Bible were not enemies of God, so it is a critically important distinction not to mistake what was only said against obeying man's laws as being against obeying God's laws. To put our faith and trust in the Mosaic Law is to put our faith and trust in the Lawgiver and in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to testify about His nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so he showed the nature of the Father through his works by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is why he could say everything that he did in John 14:6-11.
More perverted gospel. . .faith in the law saves. . .So putting our trust in the nature of Jesus as the model for how we should live our lives by following his example of obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it means to put our faith and trust in the person on Jesus,
which is why he said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law.
Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, and in Titus 2:14,
More perverted gospel. . .Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it means to put our faith and trust in the work of Jesus both in what he accomplished through his ministry and through the cross (Acts 21:20).
And that faith which those who deny Christ, such as Orthodox Jews, live by is in the law, not in Jesus Christ. . .the gospel from hell. . .Anathema!What else do you think was the point that Paul was making by associating the righteous who are living by faith in Habakkuk 2:4 with with those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law in Leviticus 18:5? In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Mosaic Law, so living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to the Mosaic Law. We can't attain life apart from faith, so there is no way that those who are attaining life in Leviticus 18:5 are not living by faith.
Paul spoke about multiple categories of law, such as the Law of God, works of the law, and the law of sin. For example, in Romans 7:25, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin. In Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds the Law of God, so it is of faith, unlike works of the law. The phrase "works of the law" has no definitive article in the Greek, so it is literally translated as "works of law", which means that it does not refer to a definitive set of laws, such as THE Law of Moses, but rather Paul used it as a catch-all phrase to refer to a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences, which were being taught that people needed to obey in order to become justified.
For example, in Acts 10:28, Peter referred a law that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles, which is not a law found anywhere in the Law of God, and is therefore a man-made law. It was this law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2:11-16 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles, which was giving credibility to those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified, which is why Paul rebuked him and reiterated that we are justified by faith and not by works of the law.
It is contradictory for someone to think that a law that is not reliable came from a Lawgiver who is reliable. The reason why God gave the Mosaic Law was to teach what it means to put our faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and reconciliation with God, not in order to create a false way of salvation.
And yet we still sin (1 John 1:8-10), so have we been "saved" from it?To think that God gave the Mosaic Law for the purpose of creating a false way of salvation is essentially to think that God is not reliable. I am not trying to do an end run around His salvation through faith in His one and only Son, but rather I have been speaking about what the content of that is. Our salvation is from sin
and sin is the transgression of God's law, so living in obedience to it is what it means to receive the gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of it. Do you think it is honoring the Lawgiver to think that His law is not reliable?
But no one can do that perfectly, and so all who rely on the law are under a curseIn John 5:39-40, Jesus said that they search the Scriptures because they think that in them they will find eternal life, and they testify about him, yet they refuse to come to him that they might have life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments,
Which goal those, such as Orthodox Jews, who despise and reject Jesus want no part of, and you want to give them eternal life even though they despise and reject the only one who can give it to them (John 10:28).so eternal life can be found in the Scriptures, which means that the Pharisees were correct to search for it there, but they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in Scripture is to testify about how to enter into a relationship with Christ for eternal life.
It is the Holy Spirit who teaches us "how to have relationship with Christ," not a written code.In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of God's law is to teach us how to have a relationship with Christ, and a relationship with Christ is required for salvation.
The law does not mediate relationship with Jesus Christ, that is the domain of the Holy Spirit. And there is no relationship with Jesus Christ in those who deny him, no matter how faithfully they keep the law.So people can obey the law while standing condemned because they missed the goal of the law, but that does not detract from what the goal of the law is.
There you go with that perverted gospel that gives salvation to those, such as Orthodox Jews, who have faith in the law but deny Jesus Christ. . .and you know better than that.
More perverted gospel. . .faith in the law saves. . .
It's not faith in Jesus' obedience to the Mosaic law that saves, it's faith in him and his atoning work on the cross that saves. . .and you know that.
You pervert the gospel so that those, such as Orthodox Jews, who deny Christ still receive the benefits of believing in Christ. ..you know better than that. . .Anathema!
More perverted gospel. . .
To put our faith and trust in the work of Jesus Christ is to put them in his atoning sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin and reconciliation with God. It has nothing to do with law keeping.
In your perverted gospel (Galatians 1:9) those, such as Orthodox Jews, who deny Jesus are really putting their faith and trust in Jesus... straight from the pit of hell. . .Anathema!
And that faith which those who deny Christ, such as Orthodox Jews, live by is in the law, not in Jesus Christ. . .the gospel from hell. . .Anathema!
And yet we still sin (1 John 1:8-10), so have we been "saved" from it?
Salvation is from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9) on those who reject his Son.
The Holy Spirit is salvation from the power of sin.
But no one can do that perfectly, and so all who rely on the law are under a curse
(Galations 3:10) for failing to keep it perfectly.
Which goal those, such as Orthodox Jews, who despise and reject Jesus want no part of, and you want to give them eternal life even though they despise and reject the only one who can give it to them (John 10:28).
It is the Holy Spirit who teaches us "how to have relationship with Christ," not a written code.
So. . .those, such as Orthodox Jews, who reject and despise Jesus Christ are lost and condemned, no matter how much faith and obedience they put in the law?
The law does not mediate relationship with Jesus Christ
, that is the domain of the Holy Spirit. And there is no relationship with Jesus Christ in those who deny him, no matter how faithfully they keep the law.
So which is it, faith in and obedience to the law is salvation, or not?
You've said both, that faith in and obedience to the law is saving faith in Christ, even among those who reject Christ, and that relationship with Christ is saving faith in Christ. Which is it?
As your perverted gospel stands now, it is law keeping that gives a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, whether you believe in him or not.
Relationship with Jesus Christ is not based on law keeping, it is based on the work of the Holy Spirit.
Law keeping does not give a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, only faith and trust in him personally and his atoning work for the forgiveness of one's sin and reconciliation with God give this saving relationship.
Those are not my words.Clare73 said:It is contradictory to have faith in the law but deny Jesus Christ
I will correct one, and only one, of the multitude of contradictions in this post....and you know better than that.
I didn't say that it was faith in Jesus' obedience to the Mosaic law that saves...and you know that.
Rather, I said obedience to the Mosaic Law is what in means to have faith in Jesus and his atoning work on the cross.
Faith in the person and work of Christ is salvation.Soyeong said:To put our faith and trust in the Mosaic Law is to put our faith and trust in the Lawgiver and in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it means to have faith in what he accomplished on the cross (Acts 21:20).
Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14). Likewise, in Acts 2:38, when Peter told his audience to repent and to become baptized for the forgiveness of sins, the Mosaic Law was how they knew what sin is. In Romans 15:4, Paul referred to OT Scriptures as being written for our instruction and in 15:18-19, his Gospel message involved bringing the Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so his Gospel was on the same page as Christ's Gospel, which is the same one I have been teaching. Likewise, in Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17, it speaks against those who do not obey the Gospel, so it is complete false that the Gospel has nothing to do with law keeping. On the contrary, a Gospel that does not involve repentance from our sins would be a perverted Gospel.
Again, it is contradictory to live by faith in the law while denying Christ...and you know that. In Matthew 1:21, it says that Jesus came to save us from our sins. To reject the law that was given to testify about who the Son is is to reject the Son.
In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said nothing about keeping the law perfectly. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have already failed to have perfect obedience, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that it is not a requirement for us. Likewise, Galatians 3:10 says nothing about needing perfect obedience. While everyone in the OT fell short of perfect obedience, everyone being under God's curse does not reflect the reality of what is recorded about those who served God. The reason why they were under a curse for relying on works of the law was because they were doing that instead of relying on the Book of the Law.
In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that that they searched the Scriptures because they think that in them they will find eternal life, and they testify about him, yet they refuse to come to him that they might have life, so Orthodox Jews need to recognize that the goal of the law is to lead us to a relationship with Christ for eternal life, so there is no eternal life apart from Christ.
The Holy Spirit teaches us how to have a relationship with Christ by leading us to obey the Mosaic (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law is His instructions for how to know Christ, or in other words, for how to have a relationship with him.
If someone rejects and despises Jesus Christ, then they are not putting faith in the law and if someone is putting faith in the law, then they are not rejecting or despising Jesus.
In Romans 10:4, it is speaking in regard to a relationship with Jesus being the goal of the law. In Romans 9:30-10:3, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge because they did not understand that Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as through righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as though righteousness were by faith in Christ. There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Covenant as being a marriage relationship between God and Israel, so the whole point of the Mosaic Law was to teach Israel how have a relationship with Christ. People can't have faith in the law while missing the goal of the law through faith in Christ.
The Holy Spirit leads us in having a relationship with Christ by teaching us to obey the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 7:23, God's law is His instructions for how to have a relationship with Christ and a relationship with Christ is required for salvation. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, obedience to it is the way to express faith in Christ and in his atoning work.