NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS ARE ISRAEL

Sophrosyne said:

NO. the bride of Christ is no commonwealth or nations nor Israel those are your made up assumptions.
The church has nothing to do with Israel itself as Paul himself expressed that we are neither jew or gentile in Christ thus since Gentiles cannot be of Israel outside of Christ then in Christ we aren't of Israel either.

Click to expand...

Like I said before, you obviously don't understand God's concept of Israel. It's not just about a national identity, it's about God's Plan of Salvation through His son Jesus Christ. This is why Lord Jesus is the only truly Righteous King of Israel. You can't rewrite The Bible of what our Heavenly Father has already declared about Jesus as King.

Those men who refuse to recognize this per God's Word are seeking self-gain, stealing people's money, selling a false salvation up in the clouds. Christ's coming Kingdom will be right here, on earth, as written. And He is to inherit David's throne, which is an earthly throne. There is no such idea of the Church being raptured prior to the tribulation to Heaven, and living there with Jesus in Heaven while the nation of Israel remains on earth. Christ Jesus is returning here, to this earth, His Church is not going to be raptured to Heaven; He is coming back to earth to gather His Church to Jerusalem, on earth, and He and His elect will reign over ALL... nations from there.

Isa 44:6
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and His redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God.
KJV

John 1:49
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto Him, "Rabbi, Thou art the Son of God; Thou art the King of Israel."
KJV

John 12:12-13
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet Him, and cried, "Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord."
KJV

That was Old Testament prophecy that Jesus would enter Jerusalem like that, and they would proclaim Him (Zechariah 9:9; Psalms 118:26).


Mic 5:2
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
KJV

That's about Lord Jesus, our King, the "ruler in Israel" (when He returns).

Sophrosyne said:

NO. the bride of Christ is no commonwealth or nations nor Israel those are your made up assumptions.
The church has nothing to do with Israel itself as Paul himself expressed that we are neither jew or gentile in Christ thus since Gentiles cannot be of Israel outside of Christ then in Christ we aren't of Israel either.

Click to expand...

So who are those men you heed that preach a false separation between believing Israel and the idea of the Church? The Church is Israel, and visa versa. The word "church" simply means the assembly or congregation, and that assembly is to be under Christ Jesus, King of Israel. This is why God even promised in Jeremiah 33 that if one could end the ordinances of the sun and moon from their courses, then He would end the seed or nation of Israel, which means HIS Israel under His Son Jesus Christ (not unbelieving Israel).

In 1830s Great Britain, a man named John Darby preached a pre-tribulational rapture theory, and he also developed a special idea of dispensationalism.

Darby's theory was that since he believed the Church is raptured to Heaven by Christ prior... to the "great tribulation", that means the Church is separate from the nation of Israel, which is to be left on earth to suffer the tribulation, according to his rapture theory. God's Word does not teach that though. His dispensationalist idea was developed to support his preaching of a pre-trib rapture theory.

What God's Word actually... teaches, is that Lord Jesus returns to gather His Church AFTER... the "great tribulation". That means His Church is going to go through... the "great tribulation", and He expects us to make a stand (spiritual) for Him, giving a Testimony for Him against the beast. Then at the end of the trib, He will return to subdue all His enemies, bringing the asleep saints with Him like 1 Thessalonians 4 says. Then those of us still alive on earth will be changed as fast as the twinkling of an eye like Apostle Paul said. And then we all go with Him to Jerusalem, on earth, to reign with Him over all nations with the promised "rod of iron".

So your belief in a separation from the Church and God's Israel is nothing but a myth.

Davy said:

Like I said before, you obviously don't understand God's concept of Israel. It's not just about a national identity, it's about God's Plan of Salvation through His son Jesus Christ. This is why Lord Jesus is the only truly Righteous King of Israel. You can't rewrite The Bible of what our Heavenly Father has already declared about Jesus as King.

Those men who refuse to recognize this per God's Word are seeking self-gain, stealing people's money, selling a false salvation up in the clouds. Christ's coming Kingdom will be right here, on earth, as written. And He is to inherit David's throne, which is an earthly throne. There is no such idea of the Church being raptured prior to the tribulation to Heaven, and living there with Jesus in Heaven while the nation of Israel remains on earth. Christ Jesus is returning here, to this earth, His Church is not going to be raptured to Heaven; He is coming back to earth to gather His Church to Jerusalem, on earth, and He and His elect will reign over ALL... nations from there.

Isa 44:6
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and His redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God.
KJV

John 1:49
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto Him, "Rabbi, Thou art the Son of God; Thou art the King of Israel."
KJV

John 12:12-13
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet Him, and cried, "Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord."
KJV

That was Old Testament prophecy that Jesus would enter Jerusalem like that, and they would proclaim Him (Zechariah 9:9; Psalms 118:26).


Mic 5:2
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
KJV

That's about Lord Jesus, our King, the "ruler in Israel" (when He returns).

Click to expand...

You have a huge problem here.... if one is the "bride" of a king then one is considered a queen and the church is not a queen. Israel is God's chosen people, Christians are not considered in that fashion, our lineage does not corporately trace back to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
You are doing what many want to do and "spiritually" adopting Christians into Israel itself via Christ himself and Israel as a nation (spiritually) rejected Christ as their king. Jesus doesn't become king until he sets up his kingdom on earth here. It is like saying the King of now Israel rules over the United States....... and that isn't so.

I've heard this over and over and in the end when you try to imply we are grafted into Israel you end up in the end putting Christians under the rulership of Israel and going down that path, the Mosaic Law.

Sophrosyne said:

You have a huge problem here.... if one is the "bride" of a king then one is considered a queen and the church is not a queen. Israel is God's chosen people, Christians are not considered in that fashion, our lineage does not corporately trace back to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Click to expand...

God's Word in Revelation 21:9-10 shows us the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Rev 21:9-14
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
KJV


I guess you're following those false men who preach the Hyper-Dispensationalist theories too, who took Darby's theory and ran with it. They falsely preach that only Paul's Epistles apply to the Church, so they wouldn't recognize even this by Apostle Peter, since Peter was a Jew...

1 Peter 2:5-10
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, "Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded."

Wow! Peter also had the Message that Paul also preached about those in Christ as lively stones in the spiritual temple foundation of the prophets, Apostles, with Jesus as The Chief Cornerstone (Eph.2).


7 Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Peter is even making a distinction between his 'unbelieving' brethren, and those like Peter which believe on Jesus Christ! How can this not apply to Gentile believers too!?! I assure you, it does apply to Gentile believers too.


9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him Who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
KJV

The verse 9 part in red is a quote from Old Testament like Exodus 19.

The verse 10 quote is from the Book of Hosea which Paul also quoted to Roman Gentiles in Romans 9. Thing about that Hosea quote, the Book of Hosea was written SPECIFICALLY to the ten tribe kingdom of Israel, of how they had rebelled, and God ended their kingdom and scattered them out of His sight, and they became Lo Ami, or 'not My people'. But in final, it would be said to them, 'ye are the sons of the living God'. Apostle Paul applied that to BOTH believing Israelites and believing Gentiles together, for the future. It's about Christ's Church!

You are doing what many want to do and "spiritually" adopting Christians into Israel itself via Christ himself and Israel as a nation (spiritually) rejected Christ as their king. Jesus doesn't become king until he sets up his kingdom on earth here. It is like saying the King of now Israel rules over the United States....... and that isn't so.

Click to expand...

What I am doing is following God's Word as written, and not some dreamed up baloney by men who steal the money of the gullible who listen to soothsayers. Christ's Kingdom is already here on earth, in part. He simply is not sitting upon David's earthly throne yet today. He is coming HERE, on earth, to sit on that throne of David.

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

Shiloh is put for Jesus Christ, and the time of His gathering of the people is at His return, His 2nd coming, which is when He will gather His Church to Himself per 1 Thess.4. But that prophecy reveals David's throne is still here on earth somewhere, and one of Judah is sitting upon it still, just not Jesus yet.

I've heard this over and over and in the end when you try to imply we are grafted into Israel you end up in the end putting Christians under the rulership of Israel and going down that path, the Mosaic Law.

Click to expand...

That's a bunch of balderdash. Like making up fibs? All you're trying to do is slander any concept of calling Christ's Church being what God's Israel is about. The name 'ISRAEL' is the Salvation label under Jesus Christ.

Jesus is NOT King of The Church. He is King of Israel.

It's false ones that have dreamt up the idea that Lord Jesus is 'King of The Church'. Again, doing that comes from Darbyite false theories involving a false pre-trib rapture theory.

Davy said:

God's Word in Revelation 21:9-10 shows us the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Rev 21:9-14
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
KJV


I guess you're following those false men who preach the Hyper-Dispensationalist theories too, who took Darby's theory and ran with it. They falsely preach that only Paul's Epistles apply to the Church, so they wouldn't recognize even this by Apostle Peter, since Peter was a Jew...

1 Peter 2:5-10
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, "Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded."

Wow! Peter also had the Message that Paul also preached about those in Christ as lively stones in the spiritual temple foundation of the prophets, Apostles, with Jesus as The Chief Cornerstone (Eph.2).


7 Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Peter is even making a distinction between his 'unbelieving' brethren, and those like Peter which believe on Jesus Christ! How can this not apply to Gentile believers too!?! I assure you, it does apply to Gentile believers too.


9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him Who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
KJV

The verse 9 part in red is a quote from Old Testament like Exodus 19.

The verse 10 quote is from the Book of Hosea which Paul also quoted to Roman Gentiles in Romans 9. Thing about that Hosea quote, the Book of Hosea was written SPECIFICALLY to the ten tribe kingdom of Israel, of how they had rebelled, and God ended their kingdom and scattered them out of His sight, and they became Lo Ami, or 'not My people'. But in final, it would be said to them, 'ye are the sons of the living God'. Apostle Paul applied that to BOTH believing Israelites and believing Gentiles together, for the future. It's about Christ's Church!



What I am doing is following God's Word as written, and not some dreamed up baloney by men who steal the money of the gullible who listen to soothsayers. Christ's Kingdom is already here on earth, in part. He simply is not sitting upon David's earthly throne yet today. He is coming HERE, on earth, to sit on that throne of David.

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

Shiloh is put for Jesus Christ, and the time of His gathering of the people is at His return, His 2nd coming, which is when He will gather His Church to Himself per 1 Thess.4. But that prophecy reveals David's throne is still here on earth somewhere, and one of Judah is sitting upon it still, just not Jesus yet.




That's a bunch of balderdash. Like making up fibs? All you're trying to do is slander any concept of calling Christ's Church being what God's Israel is about. The name 'ISRAEL' is the Salvation label under Jesus Christ.

Jesus is NOT King of The Church. He is King of Israel.

It's false ones that have dreamt up the idea that Lord Jesus is 'King of The Church'. Again, doing that comes from Darbyite false theories involving a false pre-trib rapture theory.

Click to expand...

You are the one equating we are grafted into Israel and saying Jesus is king of ALL because he is king of Israel and we are "of Israel" then logically he must be the king of the Church. The dots put in place by you lead to the conclusion made here. If we are grafted into Jesus himself then the Church is one branch, Israel (believing) is the other and the branch cast off is unbelieving Israel. One must IGNORE that MOST of Israel rejected (unbelief) Jesus and using Israel without making a distinction of believing vs unbelieving is a huge stumbling block because Christians are (saved ones) believing by definition. Israel by definition is a nation of people.
I see constantly people who want to foist the law upon Christians make for this idea of a "spiritual Israel" which isn't supported in the Bible and REPLACE any mention of Israel anywhere in the bible with Spiritual Israel in their minds and making conclusions based upon that notion while NOT ALWAYS USING the term "Spiritual" with Israel every time one can also consider a "Carnal Israel" in the thinking, that is the unbelieving idolatrous evil Israel who rejected God sinning and dong great evil, and calling for the death of their King to be. Israel had a chance to keep God as their King twice, the first time they wanted a man to be King and the second time (Jesus) they rejected a man to be their king who was ALSO God.
One cannot pick and choose what Israel means to suit themselves to explain away things that another persons pick and choose definition of Israel is that totally rejects their premise. The fact is grafting doesn't make sense to me why graft in a good branch in a bad tree (carnal Israel) when you can graft a good branch into a good tree (Jesus).

Sophrosyne said:

You have a huge problem here.... if one is the "bride" of a king then one is considered a queen and the church is not a queen. Israel is God's chosen people, Christians are not considered in that fashion, our lineage does not corporately trace back to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Click to expand...

Gal 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Might want to study God's Word more instead of just listening to the doctrines of men. Per Romans 9, those of the Promise are counted as the children of Israel.

Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

That Promise of course is The Gospel, first preached to Abraham.

You are doing what many want to do and "spiritually" adopting Christians into Israel itself via Christ himself and Israel as a nation (spiritually) rejected Christ as their king. Jesus doesn't become king until he sets up his kingdom on earth here. It is like saying the King of now Israel rules over the United States....... and that isn't so.

Click to expand...

You are showing Biblical ignorance, willing ignorance, so you can follow something else instead. God's Israel is about those who BELIEVE on Jesus Christ, those who do not... are cut off. You will finally understand this when Lord Jesus returns, and the unbelieving Jews discover how they were blinded.

Sophrosyne said:

You are the one equating we are grafted into Israel and saying Jesus is king of ALL because he is king of Israel and we are "of Israel" then logically he must be the king of the Church. The dots put in place by you lead to the conclusion made here. If we are grafted into Jesus himself then the Church is one branch, Israel (believing) is the other and the branch cast off is unbelieving Israel. One must IGNORE that MOST of Israel rejected (unbelief) Jesus and using Israel without making a distinction of believing vs unbelieving is a huge stumbling block because Christians are (saved ones) believing by definition. Israel by definition is a nation of people.
I see constantly people who want to foist the law upon Christians make for this idea of a "spiritual Israel" which isn't supported in the Bible and REPLACE any mention of Israel anywhere in the bible with Spiritual Israel in their minds and making conclusions based upon that notion while NOT ALWAYS USING the term "Spiritual" with Israel every time one can also consider a "Carnal Israel" in the thinking, that is the unbelieving idolatrous evil Israel who rejected God sinning and dong great evil, and calling for the death of their King to be. Israel had a chance to keep God as their King twice, the first time they wanted a man to be King and the second time (Jesus) they rejected a man to be their king who was ALSO God.
One cannot pick and choose what Israel means to suit themselves to explain away things that another persons pick and choose definition of Israel is that totally rejects their premise. The fact is grafting doesn't make sense to me why graft in a good branch in a bad tree (carnal Israel) when you can graft a good branch into a good tree (Jesus).

Click to expand...

You're just pushing men's doctrines. It's called Hyper-Dispensationalism, a modified form of John Darby's dispensationalist theory dreamed up to try and support his preaching of a false pre-trib rapture theory. And you'll try to use any old excuse you can to steer away from these facts I point out.

Sophrosyne said:

No. Israel as a nation rejected Jesus they rejected the New Covenant as a whole.

Click to expand...

John says He came unto His own and His own received Him not. Jesus says He came for those who need a physician... for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
The divided kingdom is still divided.

At Jerusalem, His own tribe rejected Jesus, the 10-northern-tribes did not. Jeremiah 18 says Israel is a pot which will be repurposed... we see that happening in the Gospels, where the Father has given men who were His own to Jesus... and Jesus says those men have kept His commandments. Peter is, by Jesus, prophesied to keep the commandments unto death.

The last supper is the New Covenant with the Apostles... ratified by the word of God and the blood of the Lamb.

Mat26:28 For this is My blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

For years I thought this meant the house of Israel was that nation (not the 12 tribes, but the divided kingdom called Israel). And then I found Esaias 65 which says God was found by people not called by His name... so Israel is not being replaced. Here's where the "whosoever will" of Revelation 22 belong.

Davy said:

You are showing Biblical ignorance, willing ignorance, so you can follow something else instead. God's Israel is about those who BELIEVE on Jesus Christ, those who do not... are cut off. You will finally understand this when Lord Jesus returns, and the unbelieving Jews discover how they were blinded.

Click to expand...

Zacharias 11:10 And I will take My beautiful staff, and cast it away, that I may break My covenant which I made with all the people. 11 And it shall be broken in that day; and the Chananites, the sheep that are kept for Me, shall know that it is the word of the Lord. 12 And I will say to them, If it be good in your eyes, give me my price, or refuse it. And they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the Lord said to me, Drop them into the furnace, and I will see if it is good metal, as I was proved for their sakes. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them into the furnace in the house of the Lord. 14 And I cast away My second rod, even Line, that I might break the possession between Juda and Israel.LXX

Esaias 65:11 But ye are they that have left Me, and forget My holy mountain, and prepare a table for the devil, and fill up the drink-offering to Fortune. 12 I will deliver you up to the sword, ye shall all fall by slaughter: for I called you, and ye hearkened not; I spoke, and ye refused to hear; and ye did evil in My sight, and chose the things wherein I delighted not. 13 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, My servants shall eat, but ye shall hunger: behold, My servants shall drink, but ye shall thirst: behold, My servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed: 14 behold, My servants shall exult with joy, but ye shall cry for the sorrow of your heart, and shall howl for the vexation of your spirit. 15 For ye shall leave your name for a loathing to My chosen, and the Lord shall destroy you: but My servants shall be called by a new name, 16 which shall be blessed on the earth; for they shall bless the true God: and they that swear upon the earth shall swear by the true God; for they shall forget the former affliction, it shall not come into their mind.

Ligurian said:

Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

For years I thought this meant the house of Israel was that nation (not the 12 tribes, but the divided kingdom called Israel). And then I found Esaias 65 which says God was found by people not called by His name... so Israel is not being replaced. Here's where the "whosoever will" of Revelation 22 belong.

Click to expand...

The symbolic 'vineyard' there in Matthew 21 is about the lost ten tribed house of Israel scattered among the Gentiles, with them forming Christ's Church. God labeled the ten tribed house of Israel as His vineyard of Isaiah 5. It would be through the lost ten tribes how God would fulfill His prophecy that Jacob would become "a company of nations" (Gen.35), and that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). That was to happen within The Gospel, and it did, with the western Christian nations where probably the majority of scattered Israel wound up. It would be from there that both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles in the West would take The Gospel to the rest of the world.

Apostle Paul in Romans 9, speaking to Gentile Roman believers on Christ, quoted a passage from Hosea to them which was originally only meant for the ten tribe house of Israel. Paul applied the passage to Gentile believers joined with Israel in final, both as one body under Christ Jesus. Paul also gave this kind of comparison of believing Gentiles with believing Israel in Ephesians 2 with the "commonwealth of Israel" label.

So the reality is that God has kept His promises to Israel (ten tribes) while using them in The Gospel. This is according to His Birthright also, which involves The Gospel promise first given through Abraham and transferred all they way down to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh.

Davy said:

The symbolic 'vineyard' there in Matthew 21 is about the lost ten tribed house of Israel scattered among the Gentiles, with them forming Christ's Church. God labeled the ten tribed house of Israel as His vineyard of Isaiah 5. It would be through the lost ten tribes how God would fulfill His prophecy that Jacob would become "a company of nations" (Gen.35), and that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). That was to happen within The Gospel, and it did, with the western Christian nations where probably the majority of scattered Israel wound up. It would be from there that both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles in the West would take The Gospel to the rest of the world.

Click to expand...

Esaias 1:1 The vision which Esaias the son of Amos saw, which he saw against Juda, and against Jerusalem, in the reign of Ozias, and Joatham, and Achaz, and Ezekias, who reigned over Judea.

Isaiah 5 isn't speaking about Israel's 10 tribes, and neither is Jesus in Matthew 21.

39 "And they caught Him, and cast [Him] out of the vineyard, and slew [Him]."

This is prophecy about them catching Jesus in Jerusalem, taking Him outside the city, and killing Him. Jerusalem is the vineyard.

They're both talking about the same people: Judah of Jerusalem.

Ligurian said:

Esaias 1:1 The vision which Esaias the son of Amos saw, which he saw against Juda, and against Jerusalem, in the reign of Ozias, and Joatham, and Achaz, and Ezekias, who reigned over Judea.

Isaiah 5 isn't speaking about Israel's 10 tribes, and neither is Jesus in Matthew 21.

39 "And they caught Him, and cast [Him] out of the vineyard, and slew [Him]."

This is prophecy about them catching Jesus in Jerusalem, taking Him outside the city, and killing Him. Jerusalem is the vineyard.

They're both talking about the same people: Judah of Jerusalem.

Click to expand...

The ten northern tribes of the "house of Israel" do represent the "vineyard" of Isaiah 5, and Judah there represents the "pleasant plant". It is this parable of the vineyard in Isaiah 5 that goes with Lord Jesus' parable of the husbandmen and vineyard in Matthew 21.

Isa 5:1-7
5 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:

2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard.

4 What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:

6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant: and He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
KJV

Sophrosyne said:

You have a huge problem here.... if one is the "bride" of a king then one is considered a queen and the church is not a queen. Israel is God's chosen people, Christians are not considered in that fashion, our lineage does not corporately trace back to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
You are doing what many want to do and "spiritually" adopting Christians into Israel itself via Christ himself and Israel as a nation (spiritually) rejected Christ as their king. Jesus doesn't become king until he sets up his kingdom on earth here. It is like saying the King of now Israel rules over the United States....... and that isn't so.

I've heard this over and over and in the end when you try to imply we are grafted into Israel you end up in the end putting Christians under the rulership of Israel and going down that path, the Mosaic Law.

Click to expand...

I believe you do distinguish between the Body of Christ and the nation Israel?

Jews and gentiles who are saved under Paul's gospel of grace is the Body of Christ.

The nation Israel remains the nation.

Guojing said:

I believe you do distinguish between the Body of Christ and the nation Israel?

Jews and gentiles who are saved under Paul's gospel of grace is the Body of Christ.

The nation Israel remains the nation.

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Yes I do distinquish between the two, the Body of Christ is full
of believers while the nation Israel is mostly in unbelief still.

Sophrosyne said:

Yes I do distinquish between the two, the Body of Christ is full
of believers while the nation Israel is mostly in unbelief still.

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Yep, I can sense that from your postings in this thread.

Many Christians however think in terms of "spiritual or true" Israel and think themselves as parked under that term. That is why many here are disagreeing with what you are saying.

The reality of the matter is per God's written Word.

In Zechariah 12, near the latter part, it links to the day of Jesus' 2nd coming of Revelation 1, where He said He comes in the clouds and all eyes shall see Him, even those who pierced Him (i.e., unbelieving Jews).

Zech 12:10-11
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
KJV

Those unbelieving Jews will mourn for Jesus when He returns, meaning they will come out of the blindness of Romans 11 that Paul said God put upon those, so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Paul showed there clearly that God is NOT finished with unbelieving Judah, and that His gifts of calling are without repentance (meaning He won't go back on His Promises to their fathers).

This is why Jesus showed in Luke 14 how the Jews in Jerusalem at His return will feel shame, and will wish for symbolic hills and mountains to fall upon them.

But until that day when Jesus returns to this earth, the unbelieving Jews in majority will stay blinded by God's Hand. And Apostle Paul told us, those in Christ Jesus, to NOT BE CONCEITED in thinking God has forgotten those (Romans 11).

Davy said:

Peter is even making a distinction between his 'unbelieving' brethren, and those like Peter which believe on Jesus Christ! How can this not apply to Gentile believers too!?! I assure you, it does apply to Gentile believers too.

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1 Peter 1:1 tells you the audience Peter was writing to

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Israel is the only nation that is chosen by God to have a covenant with. That is why Jews can be considered as strangers scattered, scattered means outside the nation Israel.

Gentile believers are from every nation in the world, so it does not make sense for Peter to describe them as scattered. They do not belong to a nation that has a covenant with God.

Guojing said:

1 Peter 1:1 tells you the audience Peter was writing to

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Israel is the only nation that is chosen by God to have a covenant with. That is why Jews can be considered as strangers scattered, scattered means outside the nation Israel.

Gentile believers are from every nation in the world, so it does not make sense for Peter to describe them as scattered. They do not belong to a nation that has a covenant with God.

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You've obviously left out what Paul said in Ephesians 2 about the "commonwealth of Israel" when speaking to GENTILE believers on Christ having come into the covenants and promises to Israel. Do you deny that Scripture?

Do you also deny what Apostle Paul taught in Galatians 3 about those of Faith being the "children of Abraham", and thus inherit with faithful Abraham?

You are simply regurgitating a system of doctrines from men, and not from God's Word.

Davy said:

You've obviously left out what Paul said in Ephesians 2 about the "commonwealth of Israel" when speaking to GENTILE believers on Christ having come into the covenants and promises to Israel. Do you deny that Scripture?

Do you also deny what Apostle Paul taught in Galatians 3 about those of Faith being the "children of Abraham", and thus inherit with faithful Abraham?

You are simply regurgitating a system of doctrines from men, and not from God's Word.

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You claimed Peter was writing to gentile believers, I used 1 Peter 1:1 to say that cannot be true. Have you addressed that?

As for your point, in the first place, Ephesians 2:11-12 never stated that we in the Body of Christ are now the "commonwealth of Israel".

Guojing said:

Yep, I can sense that from your postings in this thread.

Many Christians however think in terms of "spiritual or true" Israel and think themselves as parked under that term. That is why many here are disagreeing with what you are saying.

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This Idea that there is an imaginary Utopia Israel doesn't happen until Jesus becomes ultimate dictator of this planet in the book of Revelation. Equating "spiritual or true Israel" to the Body of Christ is contradictory as Israel's identity throughout the Body with the exception of the man Jacob who was named Israel is in no way associated apart from the Mosaic Law or old Covenant they are as much a part of Israel and arms and legs are to the point that breaking them caused others who were also "Israel" to stone people to death.
I would say those who want to fall for the idea of spiritual Israel want to de-evolve Paul back to Saul or rather rip off his faith and replace it with works because Saul was "True" to what Israel was and was very spiritual and when he became Paul he was no longer considered as an Israeli to his own people.
If one was to look throughout the OT then there was really no time the whole nation was totally believers (true and/or spiritual Israel).
In other words this is a ploy to put Gentile believers (the body of Christ) back under the Law usually by groups that by into this nonsense thinking they are "true". In a way it is a form of replacement theology as they think only the Body of Christ is truly Israel which means the Body of Christ existed all throughout the OT.....