The western world hates PATRIARCHY and the church ignores it. By this are we sinning?

Paidiske · Mar 30, 2021

Eloy Craft said:
That is ridiculously misleading.

sub·ju·gate
/ˈsəbjəˌɡāt/
Learn to pronounce

verb

bring under domination or control, especially by conquest.
"the invaders had soon subjugated most of the native population"

No, it's not misleading. That's what patriarchy is. We have to confront that reality honestly in any discussion of it.

Eloy Craft · Mar 30, 2021

Paidiske said:
It seems that the key idea here is that patriarchy is "natural" because men are stronger. Therefore, that that strength "naturally" entitles men to dominate, control and subjugate women.

Of course, if that were true, murder would be natural, genocide would be natural, the mutilation of captured children to make them servile eunuchs would be natural, and so on, and so on.

If the argument is "our biology means that we can, therefore we should, and call it good," that's not an argument we would admit for any other ethical question, is it?

No offense .but you seem incapable of discussing this topic without prejudicial bias. I

Eloy Craft · Mar 30, 2021

Paidiske said:
No, it's not misleading. That's what patriarchy is. We have to confront that reality honestly in any discussion of it.

That's your experience perhaps but that doesn't define or characterize patriarchy.

Paidiske · Mar 30, 2021

Eloy Craft said:
No offense .but you seem incapable of discussing this topic without prejudicial bias. I

I'm biased, sure, I'll admit it. I think there's plenty of good reason, though.

We live in a world where girl babies are aborted at a much higher rate than boy babies. Where the majority of the world's poor are women. Where girls are routinely excluded from accessing education. Where women suffer the vast majority of rapes and domestic violence.

All of these things - and so many more - are the direct result of patriarchy.

So tell me again how awesome patriarchy is?

Eloy Craft said:
That's your experience perhaps but that doesn't define or characterize patriarchy.

Yes. That is exactly what patriarchy is, by definition.

Ohorseman · Mar 30, 2021

Eloy Craft said:
No offense .but you seem incapable of discussing this topic without prejudicial bias. I

LOL. You are such a gentleman. And thank you for your deep and piercing input. Well done, brother.

My right hand can do things that my left hand can not do. I tried my best to be ambidextrous, again and again. But, I am not. My left is just not as strong as my right. Yet, there are things that my left hand does that my right hand is not good it. It relates to intimacy with my wife and I will say no more about that, LOL.

The western world hates PATRIARCHY and the church ignores it. By this are we sinning? That is my original question. Indeed, patriarchy as we know it is a product of the Fall. If we have anything less than it, be thankful. This means there is a degree of peace and stability... thanks to patriarchy. It is not just the hunter gather societies of the ancient past where this rules. Are we sinning? Yes, we are always sinning.

Ohorseman · Mar 30, 2021

To bring a little levity to the situation, I will say it like this. I do not wish to argue with women that insist on wearing man-pants nor men that may or may not be wearing dresses. Now, I beg you. Men, use the mens room. Women, use the ladies room. And, men, it is your business whether only you wear the pants in your family or not, or if you and your wife both wear the pants... just don't wear a dress, LOL. And, please, please, please, husband and wife, let no person split apart what God has put together. Work it out, even if that means you both wear pants. Seriously. Thank you for your contributions. Thank you for listening to my imperfect words as we gather around the perfect words of Our Lord Jesus Christ. And thank you for letting me share a little of my art with you. It is a joy.

And, everyone, men and women, please listen to what I say now.

I said before in this thread that sometimes words are a device. Many of my words here are just that, a device. I am not the fan boy of patriarchy. Reasonable thinking people can plainly see in my opening post that I am very critical of our sins within patriarchy. That said, patriarchy in and of itself is not a sin. We are the sinners. Everything we do individually and / or collectively usually turns out sinful: fatherhood, motherhood, priesthood, patriarchy, egalitarianism, etc., etc. Think about it, if even our priests can't restrain themselves from such horrific sins, and even small sins, then there is no earthly institution that can possibly be without sin.

I came here to ultimately say this:

A seemingly new system of power rises. Its power grows. Some call it liberalism, or progressivism, or modernism, or humanism, etc. But, it is more than that. This "new" world order rejects God. Not face to face. Rather, it crawls on its belly. It slithers and strikes at the heel. It lies. It tries to re-define God and what God has told us. It rejects absolute right and wrong. It advances moral anarchy. It claims fluidly in all things. It tries to do away with the sins of the Bible and create fake sins with worldly names like: homophobia, xenophobia, misogynistic, a re-defined racism, transphobia, etc. Distractions! But this new world order is not new. It is ancient. It is that same foe that said to God, "I will make myself like the Most High" and to us said, "Did God really say...."

Meanwhile, the church of wheat and tares sits back and argues over right and left, red and blue, complementarianism and egalitarianism, Capitalism and Marxism, and on and on. What is this church of wheat and tares that I speak of? Read the words of our Lord Jesus Christ from Matthew 13:24-30 and 36-43. Who is who? Apparently, only the Angels can separate them in the end. Our churches have become ineffective because they are overtaken by radical contention, political agenda, and cancel culture, just like everything else. The church of wheat and tares has turned the field over to a sinful world and is often times even an accomplice in turning away from God and embracing sinfulness, i.e. blessing gay pride unions.

To me it is ironic that the very first thing God said to the newly created male and female was, “BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY AND FILL THE EARTH AND SUBDUE IT." Now, a fallen and misled humanity responds back... with gender spectrum and an obese pet cat!

God said that the serpent would crawl on his belly and eat dust. Revelation shows us that a time comes when the serpent will rise up off his belly, stand, and fight as the dragon. Has this begun? When it happens, then will be near the time for Jesus Christ the King to come again. These are exciting times. Hold fast, brothers and sisters.

GEN 5
12. And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

MAT 24
37. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

THE FLOOD OF SIN IS ALL AROUND US - THE TRUE CHRISTIAN PLAN

I thought about Noah, the way things were before the Great Flood. And now, I see it raining sin. And I see a flood of sin. We all see it in these days. And I prayed to the Lord. I reminded the Lord that he gave Noah a plan, a design. The Lord told Noah to build an ark and gave him a design on how to build it. I cried to the Lord and asked Him where was our plan to deal with our time. The Lord told me this:

I have a design. The family. The family is the ark.

This is comforting. Every family that looks to God and follows his plan, his design is an ark, no matter what part of the globe they live. The design is detailed plainly in the Bible. In all its details, study the plan, live the plan. This involves connecting with other Godly families and living out God's plan. We call it going to church. And the sacred texts also clearly show us that you do not have to marry to be part of the church family and the place of the single is an honored place . Be certain to go to the right church, a fruitful church, a church that is not overrun with tares. Build your ark. It's raining sin and the rising flood of sin is all around. Warn everyone that will listen. This we do until that day, the day when the King returns and makes things new.

But one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion
of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open
the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

Philip_B · Mar 30, 2021

Eloy Craft said:
Childbirth makes women more nurturing and less detached than men.

That seems a broad generalisation. My maternal progenitor was what might be described as an alpha female. She readily described herself as not having a maternal bone in her body. She ran an organisation embracing nearly 500 people providing education, food, medicine, to others both here and abroad and she was exceptionally capable. At one stage when I was hospitalised, she came to visit, to one look at me and said 'Oh, I don't do tubes and blood, ring me when all this is removed and I will come and see you', and left. My mother was not a bad person, but nurturing she certainly was not. Of my four siblings, the three boys and noticeably more nurturing than our sister. (Our later discovered half sister I will concede is more nurturing by nature).

So for me, the myth may well be that women are more nurturing, however the truth of my experience leads me to another conclusion.

KitKat1230 · Mar 30, 2021

Philip_B said:
That seems a broad generalisation. My maternal progenitor was what might be described as an alpha female. She readily described herself as not having a maternal bone in her body. She ran an organisation embracing nearly 500 people providing education, food, medicine, to others both here and abroad and she was exceptionally capable. At one stage when I was hospitalised, she came to visit, to one look at me and said 'Oh, I don't do tubes and blood, ring me when all this is removed and I will come and see you', and left. My mother was not a bad person, but nurturing she certainly was not. Of my four siblings, the three boys and noticeably more nurturing than our sister. (Our later discovered half sister I will concede is more nurturing by nature).

So for me, the myth may well be that women are more nurturing, however the truth of my experience leads me to another conclusion.

I agree. Not all women are nurturers. While I am hospitable and empathetic towards others, I'm not what you would call a nurturer. Sure, I'm affectionate towards my cats, but I know I wouldn't be a good caretaker. I'm not particularly good with children, don't like to clean up other people's messes (especially it involves bodily fluids), and I never liked babies. I would not last a week as a stay-at-home mom or a nurse. I'm just not cut out for that.

And women are just as capable of cruelty and violence as men. According to DHHS data, 70.6% of American children abused by one parent between 2001 and 2006 were abused by their mothers, and 70.8% of American children killed by one parent between 2001 and 2006 were killed by their mothers. Look at all the women on true crime shows like Deadly Women, many of whom killed their own children, or other people's children. In fact, female serial killers tend to target those who they are expected to nurture: children, the elderly, pregnant women, the sick, men, etc.

Gregorikos · Mar 31, 2021

Ohorseman said:
The western world hates PATRIARCHY and the church ignores it. By this are we sinning? That is my original question. Indeed, patriarchy as we know it is a product of the Fall. If we have anything less than it, be thankful. This means there is a degree of peace and stability... thanks to patriarchy. It is not just the hunter gather societies of the ancient past where this rules. Are we sinning? Yes, we are always sinning.

No, because as I pointed out, patriarchy is a result of the fallen condition of mankind as described in Genesis 3:16. It is in the same category with sickness, death, poverty, envy, greed, and murder.

Gregorikos · Mar 31, 2021

Ohorseman said:
Meanwhile, the church of wheat and tares sits back and argues over right and left, red and blue, complementarianism and egalitarianism, Capitalism and Marxism, and on and on.

You're saying it is unimportant that over 50% of God's army is serving with one hand tied behind their backs. Patriarchy places limits on what women can do for God. Not men, only women.

Jesus said, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.” Matthew 9:37-38 (NASB)

Jesus said we need more workers, and to pray for that. You say women are limited in what work they can do. And now you say this isn't an important issue? Well first of all, I disagree. And second of all, if you think it isn't an important issue, then why did you bring it up?

Gregorikos · Mar 31, 2021

Clare73 said:
Where do we find this intention against slavery in Scripture?

Allow me to help you with that.

The first mention of slavery is in Genesis 9:25, and it mentioned as a curse there. It is also mentioned as a curse in Joshua 9:23. Slavery is a curse.

Slavery is not God's will. (Jeremiah 34:8-22) and not for God's people. (Leviticus 25:39-55) Slavery is not in accord with loving one's neighbor as oneself. (Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18; Mk 12:31; Lk 10:27; Jn 13:34; Ro 13:9; Gal 5:14; Jas 2:8)

Slavery is not in accord with doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. (Matt 7:12)

Paul condemns slavery in 1 Tim 1:10 as not conforming to the Gospel.

Paul uses an allegory that speaks negatively of slavery in Galatians 4:21-26, 30-31, 5:1

No matter how you define slavery, it is not and was not ever God's will for His kingdom.

Clare73 · Mar 31, 2021

Gregorikos said:
Allow me to help you with that.

The first mention of slavery is in Genesis 9:25, and it mentioned as a curse there. It is also mentioned as a curse in Joshua 9:23. Slavery is a curse.

Slavery is not God's will.

It may be time to take a look at God's view of slavery as he presents it in the Scriptures,

We start with God's own words authorizing ownership of slaves in Leviticus 25:44-46; Deuteronomy 20:10-11.

And in Leviticus 25:39-43, his own words regulate slavery of a Hebrew so that a Hebrew slave cannot be owned permanently, but must be released after six years (Exodus 21:2), because he was no one's property, having already been purchased (redeemed) by God as his servant (Leviticus 25:42), another model (type, pattern) used of the spiritual freedom in Christ (Galatians 5:1, 13) of the sons of God, who have been purchased at a great price (1 Corinthians 6:20, 1 Peter 1:18-19), who are his slaves (Romans 6:22; Ephesians 6:6) and, therefore, are not to become slaves to the lusts of men (participate in their sin--1 Corinthians 7:23), or to their own lusts (Romans 6:12, Romans 6:22).

And in God's own words we have the Year of Jubilee (Leviticus 25:10, Leviticus 25:54)--a guarantee that the sons of God (Hebrew) would never lose their freedom from slavery in Israel, just as Jesus Christ, the fulfillment of, and our Jubilee, guarantees that the sons of God shall never lose their spiritual freedom from slavery to sin (John 8:34; Romans 6:6-18) in the kingdom of God (Luke 17:20-21).

And then, again in God's own words, there were the bondservants (Exodus 21:5-6; Deuteronomy 15:16-17), who chose slavery and, with an awl, pierced their ear against the doorpost to show their willing servitude, which is used as a model for the NT servant of Christ who willingly chooses to serve his master.

So human slavery was a useful model for the meaning and practice of Biblical spiritual Lordship, as well as for the meaning and understanding of spiritual slavery to sin/Satan (Romans 6:6, Romans 6:12-14, Romans 6:16-20).

And then I note that in the inferences you assert in your NT Scriptures, you omit 1 Peter 2:18-21: "Slaves, submit to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For. . .if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps," as well as Colossians 3:22-24; Titus 2:9-10.

Likewise, you omit Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 7:21-24:
"Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves to men (your ultimate allegiance is not to men but to Christ). Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to."

And also Paul's appeal to Philemon--the slave owner in Colosse (Colossians 4:1), whose slave, Onesimus, had apparently stolen from Philemon (Philemon 18-19) and then run away, which under Roman law was punishable by death, whom Paul was sending back--to receive Onesimus back as a Christian brother (Philemon 16).

So, while it is definitely better and more desirable to be free, and while slavery--like poverty, disability and terminal cancer--is profoundly depriving, objectionable and difficult, and to be avoided if at all possible (1 Co 7:21), Scripture does not condemn slavery as immoral, and shows it to be ordained by God in Israel (Leviticus 25:44-46).

Rather, it is often used as a model for our relationship to Christ in Romans 6:18-19, Romans 6:22, Romans 7:25b (NIV), Ephesians 6:5-8, 2 Peter 2:19.

So I don't find an intention against slavery in Scripture, rather I find slavery, particularly the bond servant, being used as a model par excellance for an extremely important Biblical spiritual truth regarding slavery to sin and bond service to Christ.

I find that freedom is the goal, while slavery is deprivation, but then so are poverty, disability and terminal cancer. . .none of which are immoral.

(Jeremiah 34:8-22) and not for God's people. (Leviticus 25:39-55) Slavery is not in accord with loving one's neighbor as oneself. (Love your neighbor as yourself Lev 19:18; Mk 12:31; Lk 10:27; Jn 13:34; Ro 13:9; Gal 5:14; Jas 2:8)

Slavery is not in accord with doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. (Matt 7:12)

Paul condemns slavery in 1 Tim 1:10 as not conforming to the Gospel.

Paul uses an allegory that speaks negatively of slavery in Galatians 4:21-26, 30-31, 5:1

No matter how you define slavery, it is not and was not ever God's will for His kingdom.

Gregorikos · Mar 31, 2021

Clare73 said:
And yet in Ge 9:25, he ordained/established it when there was none.

That wasn't God, that was Noah. And it was clearly described as a curse. There were no curses in Eden, and there won't be any in heaven. (Revelation 22:3) Curses are clearly not God's thing.

And likewise regulated it as legal in Leviticus 25:44-46.

And also in Leviticus 25:39-43, where slavery of a Hebrew is regulated so that a Hebrew slave cannot be owned permanently, but must be released after six years (Exodus 21:2), because he was no one's property, having already been purchased (redeemed) by God as his servant (Leviticus 25:42), another model (type, pattern) of the spiritual freedom in Christ (Galatians 5:1, 13) of the sons of God, who have been purchased at a great price (1 Corinthians 6:20, 1 Peter 1:18-19), who are his slaves (Romans 6:22; Ephesians 6:6) and, therefore, are not to become slaves to the lusts of men (participate in their sin--1 Corinthians 7:23), or to their own lusts (Romans 6:12, Romans 6:22).

And other models, such as the Year of Jubilee (Leviticus 25:10, Leviticus 25:54)--a guarantee that the sons of God (Hebrew) would never lose their freedom from slavery in Israel, just as Jesus Christ, the fulfillment of, and our Jubilee, guarantees that the sons of God shall never lose their spiritual freedom from slavery to sin (John 8:34; Romans 6:6-18) in the kingdom of God (Luke 17:20-21).

And then there were the bondservants (Exodus 21:5-6; Deuteronomy 15:16-17), who chose slavery and, with an awl, pierced their ear against the doorpost to show their willing servitude, which is the model for the NT servant of Christ who willingly chooses to serve his master.

So human slavery was a good model for the meaning and practice of Biblical spiritual Lordship, as well as for the meaning and understanding of spiritual slavery to sin/Satan (Romans 6:6, Romans 6:12-14, Romans 6:16-20).

And then I note that in the inferences you assert in your NT Scriptures, you omit 1 Peter 2:18-21: "Slaves, submit to your masters with all respect, etc., etc." as well as Colossians 3:22-24; Titus 2:9-10.

Likewise, you omit Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 7:21-24:
"Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves to men (your ultimate allegiance is not to men but to Christ). Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to."

And also Paul's appeal to Philemon--the slave owner in Colosse (Colossians 4:1), whose slave, Onesimus, had apparently stolen from Philemon (Philemon 18-19) and then run away, which under Roman law was punishable by death, whom Paul was sending back--to receive Onesimus back as a Christian brother (Philemon 16).

So, while it is definitely better and more desirable to be free, and while slavery--like poverty, sickness and disability--is undesirable and to be avoided if possible (1 Co 7:21), Scripture does not condemn slavery as immoral, and shows it to be ordained by God (Lev 25:44-46).

Instead, it is used as a model for our relationship to Christ in Romans 6:18-19, Romans 6:22, Romans 7:25b (NIV), Ephesians 6:5-8, 2 Peter 2:19.

So I don't find an intention against slavery in Scripture, rather I find slavery, particularly the bond servant, is the model par excellance for an extremely important Biblical spiritual truth regarding slavery to sin and bond service to Christ.

Yes, because God meets us where we’re at, the law of Moses sought to mitigate & limit slavery instead of abolishing it. God instituted laws for Israel that applied to their current situation. Compared to the slavery laws of their surrounding neighbors, the laws of Moses were quite humane and a definite improvement. Even Jesus referred to Moses’ law on divorce as being less than ideal but necessary because of human sin and our hard-heartedness. (Matthew 19:8).
The laws of Moses addressed abuses so that masters did not have absolute rights over their slaves. For example;
– a master could lose his own life if he killed his slave (Exodus 21:20,23)
– if a master inflicted bodily injury to his slave, the slave was automatically freed
(Exodus 21:23-26)
– the slave had a day of rest each week (Exodus 20:10 & Deuteronomy 5:14)
– slaves who ran away from abusive masters were to be protected and not returned to
their master (Deuteronomy 23:15,16)
– all Jewish slaves were freed every 7 years (Exodus 21:2, Deuteronomy 15:12 &
Jeremiah 34:14)
– Jewish slaves couldn’t be sold by their masters (Leviticus 25:42)
– Read Job 31:13-15
Biblical scholars have noted that Old Testament slaves having legal rights and intrinsic worth as human beings was nothing short of revolutionary for its day. By New Testament times, slaves were to be treated as ‘brothers and sisters’ and not property. Ephesians 6 and Colossians 4 give specific rules for masters on how to treat their slaves, as fellow believers in Jesus. In 1st Timothy 1:9,10, Paul condemns slave traders for violating the 8th commandment (“You shall not steal”).Paul reminds Christian masters that they themselves are slaves to Christ (Colossians 3:22-25) and their slaves, like them, are members of the body of Christ. Paul also reminds the masters that, before God, slaves are equals (Galatians 3:28 & Colossians 3:11). These comments were outrageous in their day. There have been a few Christians who have supported slavery but they were WRONG.

Clare73 · Mar 31, 2021

Gregorikos said:
That wasn't God, that was Noah. And it was clearly described as a curse. There were no curses in Eden, and there won't be any in heaven. (Revelation 22:3) Curses are clearly not God's thing.

Yes, because God meets us where we’re at, the law of Moses sought to mitigate & limit slavery instead of abolishing it. God instituted laws for Israel that applied to their current situation. Compared to the slavery laws of their surrounding neighbors, the laws of Moses were quite humane and a definite improvement. Even Jesus referred to Moses’ law on divorce as being less than ideal but necessary because of human sin and our hard-heartedness. (Matthew 19:8).
The laws of Moses addressed abuses so that masters did not have absolute rights over their slaves. For example;
– a master could lose his own life if he killed his slave (Exodus 21:20,23)
– if a master inflicted bodily injury to his slave, the slave was automatically freed
(Exodus 21:23-26)
– the slave had a day of rest each week (Exodus 20:10 & Deuteronomy 5:14)
– slaves who ran away from abusive masters were to be protected and not returned to
their master (Deuteronomy 23:15,16)
– all Jewish slaves were freed every 7 years (Exodus 21:2, Deuteronomy 15:12 &
Jeremiah 34:14)
– Jewish slaves couldn’t be sold by their masters (Leviticus 25:42)
– Read Job 31:13-15

Biblical scholars have noted that Old Testament slaves having legal rights and intrinsic worth as human beings was nothing short of revolutionary for its day. By New Testament times, slaves were to be treated as ‘brothers and sisters’ and not property.

You're winging it here.

Christians were to treat their Christian slaves as brothers and sisters, not all slaves as their brothers and sisters.

Ephesians 6 and Colossians 4 give specific rules for masters on how to treat their slaves, as fellow believers in Jesus. In 1st Timothy 1:9,10, Paul condemns slave traders for violating the 8th commandment (“You shall not steal”).

It wasn't slavery that was immoral, it was their stealing them that was immoral.

And note that it was because slaves were personal property that it was a violation of moral law (8th commandment) to take one.

Like it or not, the bottom line is that nowhere in Scripture is slavery presented as immoral.

God authorized ownership (Leviticus 25:44-46) of their captured enemies(Deuteronomy 20:10-11), whose descendants were then also their property.

Gregorikos · Mar 31, 2021

Clare73 said:
You're winging it here.

Christians were to treat their Christian slaves as brothers and sisters, not all slaves.

Like it or not, the bottom line is that nowhere in Scripture is slavery presented as immoral.

God authorized ownership of their captured enemies, whose descendants were then also their property.
God did not authorize slave trading for commerce.

You have an interesting take on the Scriptures, defending slavery such as you do. That makes your defense of patriarchy all the more understandable.

Philip_B · Mar 31, 2021

Clare73 said:
God authorized ownership of their captured enemies, whose descendants were then also their property. God did not authorize slave trading for commerce.

I find the viewpoint you express here vile and abominable. It is a view of God authorising to treatment of brothers and sisters in humanity as property.

I do accept that the biblical literature is scant in clear condemnation of the practice. This may be the result of the prevailing culture in which it was written, effectively an acceptance of it's normality. In that sense most of this should be seen as descriptive rather than proscriptive.

I my view slavery is a clear example of why we need Scripture, Tradition and Reason to understand the will of God in our time.

I fail to see how you think you can allow the ownership of other human beings as property without understanding that that allows for the commercial trading of those persons.

Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Clare73 · Mar 31, 2021

Gregorikos said:
You have an interesting take on the Scriptures,

And I find it "revealing" that taking God and Scripture at their word--the meaning of belief, both in regard to marriage (Ephesians 5:12-31) and to slavery (Leviticus 25:39-46; Deuteronomy 20:10-11), emphasizing 1 Corinthians 7:21, is a an "interesting take" to you.

defending slavery such as you do.

Am I defending slavery, or am I defending what Scripture actually presents on the matter, as distinct from what it does not present.

That makes your defense of patriarchy all the more understandable.

Yes, it's all part and parcel of defending what Scripture actually presents, as distinct from what it does not present, on both subjects.

. . .2 Timothy 4:3-4

Clare73 · Mar 31, 2021

Philip_B said:
I find the viewpoint you express here vile and abominable.

How do you feel about all those perfect little lambs, bleeting as they were slaughtered one by one, and their blood drained for the sacrifices?

It is a view of God authorising to treatment of brothers and sisters in humanity as property.
I do accept that the biblical literature is scant in clear condemnation of the practice. This may be the result of the prevailing culture in which it was written, effectively an acceptance of it's normality. In that sense most of this should be seen as descriptive rather than proscriptive.

And the NT does not describe slavery as immoral.

And while the institution itself is not prescriptive, its practice is regulated.

I my view slavery is a clear example of why we need Scripture, Tradition and Reason to understand the will of God in our time.

I fail to see how you think you can allow the ownership of other human beings as property without understanding that that allows for the commercial trading of those persons.

Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

I note that you don't address the Scriptures involved.

All is from the word of God written.
Your issue is with the Scriptures, not me.

1 Corinthians 7:21 is clear.

See 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

Ohorseman · Mar 31, 2021

Gregorikos said:
No, because as I pointed out, patriarchy is a result of the fallen condition of mankind as described in Genesis 3:16. It is in the same category with sickness, death, poverty, envy, greed, and murder.

By that logic, we should also place motherhood in the same category with sickness, death, poverty, envy, greed, and murder... and we should even strive to grow babies in artificial wombs.

Philip_B · Mar 31, 2021

Clare73 said:
No one regards poverty, disability or terminal cancer as proscriptive.
But none are immoral.

Unlike slavery which is profoundly immoral.

The western world hates PATRIARCHY and the church ignores it. By this are we sinning?

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