Black violence against Asians continues

MrMoe · Mar 31, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
Apparently the people who just days ago were saying there was no violence against Asians happening

Can you provide evidence for this?

have now decided that it is happening, because now we can blame black people.

Did they openly state this?

muichimotsu · Mar 31, 2021

MrMoe said:
Can you provide evidence for this?

Did they openly state this?

You're far too optimistic about people's charitable interpretations of race relations, especially white people who don't like being challenged on their privilege.

You really think there weren't people, even if they were a minority overall, that were downplaying the Asian violence as exaggerated and may even overlap with those who try to act like Covid deaths are exaggerated? The kind of conspiracy theorist nutbars who have little connection to reality beyond what suits their preconceptions of America being the "greatest"

Ana the Ist · Mar 31, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
And how does that data correlate with data of significantly disproportionately higher rates of arrests, convictions, and prison sentences for African Americans compared to caucasians?

How does data that shows black people committing disproportionately higher amounts of crime correlate to them being convicted of crimes at a higher rate?

Correlates pretty well...generally speaking.

See the following in another thread where I cite and provide links to relevant reports and findings.
Systemic Racism

What exactly do you want me to look at?

Ana the Ist · Mar 31, 2021

muichimotsu said:
No, we have people bringing this up, that's not irrelevant, especially when we can create a decent database of information, such as the ones in regards to anti Asian violence in the last year. Or is that not good enough for you?

If we made such a database....what do you think it would show?

Algorithms are far less accurate than people applying critical thought to them: in and of themselves, they're almost worthless, because they can reach varied conclusions

One of the problems with the algorithm, which the article addressed, was it tracked the use of a certain racial slur as hate speech. That particular slur isn't always hateful but sometimes a term of endearment. So they removed it from the algorithm.

It didn't significantly alter the results.

Yes, white supremacy is a problem and that doesn't just manifest in the behavior of white people, you're equivocating and oversimplifying the term, as if it has no effect that can be observed with non white people that also marginalizes and creates prejudice against other non whites.

Let's pretend that I go along with your definition....

How does black people attacking asian people benefit white people? What systems in place created this effect?

Don't misrepresent my position. These are racist people committing hate crimes. You should at least consider the fact that you seem to want to blame everyone except those guilty, is enabling this behavior.

Ana the Ist · Mar 31, 2021

Jimmy D said:
I’ll probably get sanctioned in some way for this... but this is one of the more idiotic threads I’ve seen recently. Quoting several media articles and then complaining about a lack of coverage in the media of non-white violence as if there is some sort of sinister liberal conspiracy.

Well consider that the media spent a lot of time addressing the "racism" of a little white schoolboy on a field trip who stared down a native American. They spent a solid week talking about that.

5 black people beat an Asian woman on a subway for not wearing a mask and shouting racial slurs the whole time didn't get talked about for more than a day.

You didn't hear about it....because it happened before asians pointed out the relative media silence on the matter.

Hate Crime investigation underway after woman without mask attacked on subway

So they racist criminals here are all black and judging by the smiles on their faces, pretty proud of what they did.

Ana the Ist · Mar 31, 2021

muichimotsu said:
Societal privileges, or have you not even looked into what people describe as white privilege in a way that isn't already biased to your presuppositions about it?

Societal privilege isn't something measurable.....it's even more nebulous than a term like power.

Why would I consider that kind if power to be more significant than other kinds of power....and how do you measure it? Clearly you believe that white people have more of this obscure undefined power....but how do you know that? How can you possibly measure such a thing?

Acting like white people are somehow on even ground with non whites assumes a LOT of factors like wealth accumulation

I don't know what you mean by even ground. If you're talking about wealth....there's never been a system that gave everyone equal wealth. I can't even imagine how such a system would work.

It also appears that the characteristics that you have decided to divide people by are completely arbitrary.

If French Americans have 25% less wealth than Russian Americans....is that because Russian Americans have made a system that benefits them?

Does that sound like an extraordinarily dumb way of looking at things?

over generations that black people have only had significant access to since the 60s, not even the 1860s when slavery was legally abolished (see Jim Crow law). And that's just one of the major factors, to say nothing of consistent representation, almost excessively so relative to demographic proportions for white people. That creates the perspective that being white is the norm and thus alienates and marginalizes non whites.

There's many nations where black people are in every position of power. In most cases, these are some of the worst places to live for black people.

If representation of skin color mattered....why do black people in nations with majority white populations do better than those in majority black populations?

The bottom line is that your perspective can be skewed by how society treats you better implicitly than others, but you have the illusion of equality because of legal changes without understanding the lived experiences of people different from you.

There's no evidence of any real connection between implicit bias and behavior. The science disagrees with you.

I'd assume you're white, but honestly, even non whites can encourage this attitude because that helps them be approved of by society at large, even if it isn't in the best interests of those who aren't going to conform to expectations of a group that's had it easy and never been challenged merely because of their skin color as to legitimacy in this country (ethnicity or national origin perhaps, but that's small potatoes versus race, arguably)

Had it easy? At what point did being white mean you "had it easy"?

Ana the Ist · Mar 31, 2021

muichimotsu said:
Societal privileges, or have you not even looked into what people describe as white privilege

Have you ever considered the reason why you can't define the terms you're using without using more vaguely described words that require more definitions is because you're engaged in sophistry?

Definition of SOPHISTRY

Let's be honest.....you're using one undefined concept like "societal privilege" to describe another vague concept like "power".

Do you think that we can ever get to a clear understanding of what you're talking about that doesn't rely on this vague nonsense?

MrMoe · Mar 31, 2021

muichimotsu said:
You're far too optimistic about people's charitable interpretations of race relations, especially white people who don't like being challenged on their privilege.

You have to be an optimist in regards to race relations, otherwise what would be the point if you see no hope of them getting better?

You really think there weren't people, even if they were a minority overall, that were downplaying the Asian violence as exaggerated and may even overlap with those who try to act like Covid deaths are exaggerated? The kind of conspiracy theorist nutbars who have little connection to reality beyond what suits their preconceptions of America being the "greatest"

I don't deny there are people who are downplaying it, There are definitely a minority that are downplaying it, but that wasn't the evidence I was asking for.

Rene Loup · Mar 31, 2021

SoldierOfTheKing said:
What's Christ-like about blaming white people for black-on-Asian crime?

It is not Christ-like at all. Just do not repay evil unto evil, but repay good unto evil (Matthew 5:1-12, 5:38-48, 6:9-15, Romans 12:9-21). Never become the very thing you fight against. Otherwise, it only amounts to hypocrisy (Luke 12:1-3, Matthew 7:1-6, 23:1-39). Forgiveness is key (Ephesians 4:25-32, Matthew 6:14-15, 18:21-35). Many who have been persecuted in the past are not forgiving and are only adding fuel to the fire (James 3:1-18, Matthew 12:33-37, Proverbs 18:21). Present grieviences are currently being addressed and need to be done in a Christ-like manner, not as bitter competition (Ephesians 4:25-32, Matthew 5:38-48, Philippians 2:1-11).

NEVER play the Oppression Olympics. Every participant is a gold medalist in their own eyes.

Easier said than done, I know, but it is worth it. All worthwhile things in life take effort, sacrifice, and suffering to gain. We are to serve God, not Mammon nor any empty promises the latter makes, such as positions of authority (Luke 9:25, 16:1-15, Mark 8:36, Matthew 6:19-24, 16:26).

Which is the better option: To forgive as God forgave us as described in Matthew 18:21-35, or to continue the cycle of hatred, violence, and selfish ambition condemned in Galatians 5:19-21? Why or why not?

9 Your love must be real. Hate what is evil. Hold on to what is good. 10 Love each other like brothers and sisters. Give your brothers and sisters more honor than you want for yourselves. 11 Do not be lazy but work hard. Serve the Lord with all your heart. 12 Be joyful because you have hope. Be patient when trouble comes. Pray at all times. 13 Share with God’s people who need help. Bring strangers in need into your homes.

14 Wish good for those who do bad things to you. Wish them well and do not curse them. 15 Be happy with those who are happy. Be sad with those who are sad. 16 Live together in peace with each other. Do not be proud, but make friends with those who seem unimportant. Do not think how smart you are.

17 If someone does wrong to you, do not pay him back by doing wrong to him. Try to do what everyone thinks is right. 18 Do your best to live in peace with everyone. 19 My friends, do not try to punish others when they wrong you. Wait for God to punish them with his anger. It is written: “I am the One who punishes; I will pay people back,” says the Lord. 20 But you should do this:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if your enemy is thirsty, give him a drink.
Doing this will be like pouring burning coals on his head.” Proverbs 25:21-22

21 Do not let evil defeat you. Defeat evil by doing good.

~Romans 12:9-21 (ICB)

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 12 - King James Version
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Jesus Teaches the People
1 Jesus saw the crowds who were there. He went up on a hill and sat down. His followers came to him. 2 Jesus taught the people and said:

3 “Those people who know they have great spiritual needs are happy.
The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.
4 Those who are sad now are happy.
God will comfort them.
5 Those who are humble are happy.
The earth will belong to them.
6 Those who want to do right more than anything else are happy.
God will fully satisfy them.
7 Those who give mercy to others are happy.
Mercy will be given to them.
8 Those who are pure in their thinking are happy.
They will be with God.
9 Those who work to bring peace are happy.
God will call them his sons.
10 Those who are treated badly for doing good are happy.
The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.

11 “People will say bad things about you and hurt you. They will lie and say all kinds of evil things about you because you follow me. But when they do these things to you, you are happy. 12 Rejoice and be glad. You have a great reward waiting for you in heaven. People did the same evil things to the prophets who lived before you.

~Matthew 5:1-12 (ICB)

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9 So when you pray, you should pray like this:

‘Our Father in heaven,
we pray that your name will always be kept holy.
10 We pray that your kingdom will come.
We pray that what you want will be done,
here on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us the food we need for each day.
12 Forgive the sins we have done,
just as we have forgiven those who did wrong to us.
13 And do not cause us to be tested;
but save us from the Evil One.’
[The kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours forever. Amen.]

14 Yes, if you forgive others for the things they do wrong, then your Father in heaven will also forgive you for the things you do wrong. 15 But if you don’t forgive the wrongs of others, then your Father in heaven will not forgive the wrong things you do.

~Matthew 6:9-15 (ICB)

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Jesus Is Killed on a Cross
26 The soldiers led Jesus away. At that time, there was a man coming into the city from the fields. His name was Simon, and he was from the city of Cyrene. The soldiers forced Simon to carry Jesus’ cross and walk behind him.

27 A large crowd of people was following Jesus. Some of the women were sad and crying. 28 But Jesus turned and said to them, “Women of Jerusalem, don’t cry for me. Cry for yourselves and for your children too! 29 The time is coming when people will say, ‘Happy are the women who cannot have children! Happy are the women who have no babies to nurse.’ 30 Then people will say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us!’ And they will say to the hills, ‘Cover us!’ 31 If they act like this now when life is good, what will happen when bad times come?”

32 There were also two criminals led out with Jesus to be killed. 33 Jesus and the two criminals were taken to a place called the Skull. There the soldiers nailed Jesus to his cross. They also nailed the criminals to their crosses, one beside Jesus on the right and the other beside Jesus on the left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them. They don’t know what they are doing.”

The soldiers threw lots to decide who would get his clothes. 35 The people stood there watching. The leaders made fun of Jesus. They said, “If he is God’s Chosen One, the Christ, then let him save himself. He saved other people, didn’t he?”

36 Even the soldiers made fun of him. They came to Jesus and offered him some vinegar. 37 They said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself!” 38 (At the top of the cross these words were written: “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”)

39 One of the criminals began to shout insults at Jesus: “Aren’t you the Christ? Then save yourself! And save us too!”

40 But the other criminal stopped him. He said, “You should fear God! You are getting the same punishment as he is. 41 We are punished justly; we should die. But this man has done nothing wrong!” 42 Then this criminal said to Jesus, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom!”

43 Then Jesus said to him, “Listen! What I say is true: Today you will be with me in paradise!”

~Luke 23:26-43 (ICB)

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Jesus Washes His Followers’ Feet
1 It was almost time for the Jewish Passover Feast. Jesus knew that it was time for him to leave this world and go back to the Father. He had always loved those who were his own in the world, and he loved them all the way to the end.

2 Jesus and his followers were at the evening meal. The devil had already persuaded Judas Iscariot to turn against Jesus. (Judas was the son of Simon.) 3 Jesus knew that the Father had given him power over everything. He also knew that he had come from God and was going back to God. 4 So during the meal Jesus stood up and took off his outer clothing. Taking a towel, he wrapped it around his waist. 5 Then he poured water into a bowl and began to wash the followers’ feet. He dried them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

6 Jesus came to Simon Peter. But Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”

7 Jesus answered, “You don’t understand what I am doing now. But you will understand later.”

8 Peter said, “No! You will never wash my feet.”

Jesus answered, “If I don’t wash your feet, then you are not one of my people.”

9 Simon Peter answered, “Lord, after you wash my feet, wash my hands and my head, too!”

10 Jesus said, “After a person has had a bath, his whole body is clean. He needs only to wash his feet. And you men are clean, but not all of you.” 11 Jesus knew who would turn against him. That is why Jesus said, “Not all of you are clean.”

12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and sat down again. Jesus asked, “Do you understand what I have just done for you? 13 You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord.’ And this is right, because that is what I am. 14 I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet. So you also should wash each other’s feet. 15 I did this as an example for you. So you should do as I have done for you. 16 I tell you the truth. A servant is not greater than his master. A messenger is not greater than the one who sent him. 17 If you know these things, you will be happy if you do them.

18 “I am not talking about all of you. I know those I have chosen. But what the Scripture said must happen: ‘The man who ate at my table has now turned against me.’ 19 I am telling you this now before it happens. Then when it happens you will believe that I am he. 20 I tell you the truth. Whoever accepts anyone I send also accepts me. And whoever accepts me also accepts the One who sent me.”

~John 13:1-20 (ICB)

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ViaCrucis · Mar 31, 2021

MrMoe said:
Can you provide evidence for this?

Did they openly state this?

Is The Asian Community Under Attack?

-CryptoLutheran

durangodawood · Mar 31, 2021

So, the press "racializes" everything therefore I will too.

Brilliant.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 31, 2021

muichimotsu said:
Not sure we've necessarily studied it to that extent, but the numbers you cite in regards to black on black violence don't reflect that the problem is purely within the black community as if there cannot be any responsibility with the longstanding white supremacist tendencies in American culture if we're talking about that issue.

You're making a reductionist argument, neglecting a holistic perspective that factors in cultural and socioeconomic situations that lead to people going into crime and inflicting violence against blacks in higher numbers

Those are some nice words but it's not really an answer to my question, is it?

Aldebaran · Mar 31, 2021

muichimotsu said:
Whatever you think your point is, you haven't really made any argument, just more hollow rhetoric that you think you're somehow a victim and that everyone should feel sorry for a group that hasn't had to struggle remotely by contrast in any way that is caused directly by their skin color

Oh, poor privileged white person: you struggled socioeconomically? So what? You were never treated nearly as badly as non white people have for centuries in America: your problems are a grain of sand compared to the oppression of black, Asian, Hispanic, etc by a culture that others them, that marginalizes their struggles and makes them out to be a joke, that they should be thankful to their white saviors.

Is that your argument that the white community should be blamed for black people attacking Asian people?

Aldebaran · Mar 31, 2021

Good news! The attacker has been caught, and he has a history of violence--having killed his own mother by stabbing her to death.

"The hate-fueled attacker accused of stomping a 65-year-old Asian woman on a Hell’s Kitchen sidewalk was freed from prison 16 months ago after doing time for the savage 2002 stabbing murder of his mom, authorities said Wednesday.

Numerous tips to the NYPD Crime Stoppers line after the Monday assault steered cops to Brandon Elliot, 38, who was hit with assault as a hate crime and other charges after his Wednesday arrest at 1:10 a.m. A shocking video captured Elliot kicking the smaller, elderly victim to the ground before planting his foot into the helpless woman three times and walking away."
Paroled killer, busted for stomping Asian woman in caught-on-video Manhattan hate crime, murdered his mom in 2002

But still, some people on this forum are still going to say it's all because of "white supremacy".

muichimotsu · Mar 31, 2021

If we made such a database....what do you think it would show?

Well, we already have one that shows supposedly a massive spike in anti Asian violence, but apparently you're content to just act like there isn't a problem because it doesn't affect you.

One of the problems with the algorithm, which the article addressed, was it tracked the use of a certain racial slur as hate speech. That particular slur isn't always hateful but sometimes a term of endearment. So they removed it from the algorithm.

It didn't significantly alter the results.

Yeah, just like the n word, I'm sure someone is totally trying to use it like that and isn't just being ignorant or attempting to be "hip" with the subconscious recognition of their white privilege

Let's pretend that I go along with your definition....

How does black people attacking asian people benefit white people? What systems in place created this effect?

Don't misrepresent my position. These are racist people committing hate crimes. You should at least consider the fact that you seem to want to blame everyone except those guilty, is enabling this behavior.

It keeps them from being the target of rightful condemnation of enabling systemic racism by scapegoating black people as "troublemakers" or such.

Do you have to take the expression that literally? Or is it that hard to understand that society is a system?

I never avoided blaming the individuals, but that doesn't mean anything in regards to the whole when it comes to minorities in America, who have been consistently othered for centuries and that reflects in present day attitudes. It certainly could sound like special treatment and unfairly biased against white people, but when you have the situations that white people get off the hook so much easier than black people, particularly as regards law enforcement, that isn't just something you can dismiss without the consideration that your own societal privilege as, I'm almost certain, a white person, is blinding you to actual empathy and only giving the pretense of sympathy at best

A problem is not solved by just addressing the individual incidents, but considering the foundation that created this situation in the first place, not just Trump in particular politicizing and creating xenophobia and racism against Asians in relation to a pandemic that does not have a nationality, ethnicity or race, but also longstanding racism against Asians in America.

This is not remotely a new situation, it's just become more verified and recorded in regards to the incidents, it isn't going to just go away because people want to pretend these are isolated incidents and not reflective at all of rampant prejudice that has been encouraged by a populist proto fascist that only got out of the White House a few months ago instead of when he should have gracefully admitted defeat in December at the latest

muichimotsu · Mar 31, 2021

You have to be an optimist in regards to race relations, otherwise what would be the point if you see no hope of them getting better?

Not a simple either/or dichotomy, I'm a realist, there isn't going to just be an elimination of prejudices, we have subconscious conditioning by the media and culture. A refusal to recognize it is enabling the more explicit manifestations of prejudice we see, you're still gaslighting and trying to victim blame, like the only people who should get blame are those who cry racism that you don't recognize as valid, conveniently because you're convinced it only comes about in one way

Better /=/ perfect, let's not equivocate implicitly like that

I don't deny there are people who are downplaying it, There are definitely a minority that are downplaying it, but that wasn't the evidence I was asking for.

I'm skeptical you'd accept anything as legitimate evidence, as if this works remotely like natural sciences when this is a social issue and doesn't work the same way in terms of investigation

muichimotsu · Mar 31, 2021

Aldebaran said:
Is that your argument that the white community should be blamed for black people attacking Asian people?

When they aren't making an effort to address problems that affect the black community and are indirectly responsible for their racist behavior, yes, they should be blamed. Nice generalization of my position, because that's the best you seemingly have is more strawmanning and dishonest spin instead of actually asking a genuine question that isn't loaded with presuppositions

muichimotsu · Mar 31, 2021

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Those are some nice words but it's not really an answer to my question, is it?

Not sure what kind of answer you want when this isn't a cut and dry situation, much as you'd seemingly like it to be so you can move onto your own pet projects and not have a shred of empathy for human beings that aren't just like you

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 31, 2021

muichimotsu said:
Not sure what kind of answer you want when this isn't a cut and dry situation, much as you'd seemingly like it to be so you can move onto your own pet projects and not have a shred of empathy for human beings that aren't just like you

That's some nice moral posturing but still not an answer.

muichimotsu · Mar 31, 2021

Societal privilege isn't something measurable.....it's even more nebulous than a term like power.

You realize not everything can be measured, right, especially in regards to abstract concepts that don't have physical presence? This is social sciences, it's not nearly as precise as natural science, this should be almost common sense, the study of this is not going to be as simple, much as you'd like it to be

Why would I consider that kind if power to be more significant than other kinds of power....and how do you measure it? Clearly you believe that white people have more of this obscure undefined power....but how do you know that? How can you possibly measure such a thing?

I can observe it myself and in others, this isn't purely anecdotal, it's a consistent pattern where white people get the benefit of the doubt, they are treated as the norm, they aren't seen as dangerous or criminal, they're not profiled like non whites. Need I go on? Privilege and the power associated with it is going to vary even within the general population of white people, that doesn't mean the variability means the concept is nebulous if you actually look into it and consider that maybe this isn't going to work like an investigation of physical phenomena, since this is social interaction, not physics

I don't know what you mean by even ground. If you're talking about wealth....there's never been a system that gave everyone equal wealth. I can't even imagine how such a system would work.

It also appears that the characteristics that you have decided to divide people by are completely arbitrary.

If French Americans have 25% less wealth than Russian Americans....is that because Russian Americans have made a system that benefits them?

Does that sound like an extraordinarily dumb way of looking at things?

Never remotely suggested equal outcome, that's a dishonest strawman instead of having a charitable interpretation where it isn't just me demanding equality rather than equity (they're not the same)

If you reduce things to one statistic, you're going to look dumb regardless, that's not how a study works, you're ignoring a holistic method which applies even in the natural sciences, even moreso in social sciences

There's many nations where black people are in every position of power. In most cases, these are some of the worst places to live for black people.

If representation of skin color mattered....why do black people in nations with majority white populations do better than those in majority black populations?

That's whataboutism, we're not discussing global issues, this is primarily a white colonialist nation problem where Asians are treated like subhumans by white people, along with other non Asians

Never did I claim black people being better off relative to other nations reflected anything of superiority, that's more strawmanning of my position, which was not about global considerations of black people's status. Representation in a proportional fashion is the concern here, you're missing the point entirely by seemingly some very selective reading where I tried to make it clear that 1) this isn't a global issue necessarily and 2) that black people being better off in some nebulous (your word of choice) way doesn't mean they are remotely in an equitable position to white people, especially when systemic racism and biases are not addressed, because white fragility rears its ugly head so they don't want to confront their subconscious prejudices

There's no evidence of any real connection between implicit bias and behavior. The science disagrees with you.

Citation needed: just speaking with confidence doesn't end teh conversation. Seems to me you don't want to admit of any kind of subconscious prejudices or microaggressions because that'd be too uncomfortable. Well, that's too bad, because the world doesn't care about your feelings if they're so petty as to dismiss and downplay racism because you think things are "better"

Had it easy? At what point did being white mean you "had it easy"?

The whole time in America, because the other things that were used as prejudice weren't based on skin color, but nationality, ethnicity, religion, etc. Never were people being white used as a justification to segregate, to oppress, to other. It's like you haven't even remotely considered that race as a social construct has generally been distinct from other traits that you equivocate to being white (being Polish or being Catholic, neither of those are being white). You really think non white people were treated fairly and not othered by colonialists in pretty much every nation? Like they weren't inferior and needed to be "civilized" by white people?

This is part of the problem, acting like the racism of the past was somehow lesser because acknowledging those problems and how they may very well have persisted into biases and prejudices we have now would expose cognitive dissonance (or do you think the science isn't valid on that concept either?)

Black violence against Asians continues

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