When does the rapture happen? Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib?

When does the rapture happen? Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib?

  • Pre-trib

  • Mid-trib

  • Post-trib


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Berean Tim

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If you conclude that the 7 trumpets chronologically follow the 6th seal, does this also mean you think the 42 month reign of the beast follows the 6th seal as well? The 42 month reign of the beast is obviously the great trib. And if the rapture occurs during the 6th seal, but that the 42 month reign of the beast chronologically follows the 6th seal, that obviously adds up to Pretrib. Any rapture that precedes the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast, regardless what label one has for that rapture, that rapture is still Pretrib.
Not exactly. I believe the AC starts (his reign) with power over the saints (5th Seal martyrs) sometime in the 4th Seal. I don't know how long into the Trumpets that goes and I don't see the Word teaching that. Only one Trumpet has a stated time frame, the 5th Trumpet is 5 months. The Bible is quiet on the rest of the Trumpet timeline.

I guard against coming to conclusions where the Bible is quiet. I don't know how long each Seal,Trumpet and Bowls are and I'm ok with that.
 
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Timtofly

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The great tribulation begins by this event.
“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 25:15-21

JLB
What tribulation? The tribulation that started with Stephen, when he claimed the end for the Jews and they stoned him because of his testimony? Were not the words of Jesus enough? They did not want to hear from any one, that the Temple would be destroyed. It was a long miserable 40 years, with constant infighting among the Jewish rebellion. The Sanhedrin thought they would be in control for ever.

Does any one see that Jesus was mixing in the 1st century with His actual Second Coming? The Second Coming has no fleeing, and the first century had no Second Coming. Fleeing to Judea was the first century. The time like no other is the Second Coming. Unprecedented trouble did not happen in the first century. Saying the trouble happens before the Second Coming is not backed up by other Scripture, nor did it happen in the first century. Those in the first century did not flee, after this time of great trouble. The point is not about seeing the abomination, fleeing, or great trouble being before the Second Coming. What was the abomination that caused them to flee, and if it happened it was in the first century and cannot happen again first. The tribulation of those days would be ongoing from the first century until now. They would only stop after the Second Coming. Has tribulation been non stop? Has tribulation come and gone many times in the last 1991 years? Can trouble cause people to flee at any time? These verses are not specific for the first century nor specific for the Second Coming. They only portray constant tribulation and the constant need to escape each time it happens. Yet the greatest and Unprecedented time will happen at the Second Coming. John in Revelation shows the Jews will flee twice historically, but does not place the Second Coming in the same narrative. The Second Coming does not have to wait for events that happened in the first century. It already waited 1991 years. So the timing is not necessarily in the same order as the first century.

If one is accurate, even in the first century, Pilate set up the abomination before Jesus was baptized. It was removed to please the Jews. Titus was never able to, but many argue over that point. Truth be told, they already knew when Jesus was even making the distinction, that it was prior to His own ministry on earth. The Romans never had the chance again. The reason they fled Jerusalem was because of the armies. It would have been too late to escape the armies, after they could desecrate the Temple. Many escaped years before. Many Jews from all over the empire who came that year in 70AD did not escape.

The point is there will be wars right before the Second Coming, but the time of trouble and the abomination do not happen prior to the Second Coming. Daniel's prophecy had already been fulfilled, as Jesus pointed out, before Jesus even told them to look out for it. It was the armies heading their way that they needed to flee from. The next time the armies come against Jerusalem, the OT claims Christ will come and save them, Himself. That is the Second Coming. John still claims any abomination happens after the Second Coming. Revelation 13 is after the last event of Revelation 12.

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Whether the Second Coming is the giving of the eagle wings, or the point the earth opens up and swallows the Flood of water, we are not told. Yet the OT claims the Second Coming is this life saving event. There is no other point given. Jerusalem is taken over by Satan when Israel flees into the desert. John gives us the details why in chapter 13. John gives a totally different outcome than the victorious return given by the OT prophecies. That is why the Second Coming is not found in that narrative. The Second Coming cannot fit in Revelation 19 for the same reason. Satan is already in control and has been for 42 months. Satan chased out or killed all of those living in Jerusalem. There is no one to save, they have all fled. The Second Coming in Revelation 19 is 42 months late to come and save Jerusalem from Satan's attacks. Satan has ruled from Jerusalem already for 42 months. At Revelation 19 Satan is bound. But not in Jerusalem nor the mount of Olives. It is at Megiddo 60 miles north of Jerusalem. This is a battle 42 months at the least, if not 4+ years after the Mt. Of Olives Second Coming appearance. The really bad time happens after the Second Coming, during the Trumpets and Thunders and ends with Satan in control of Jerusalem for 42 months. Satan's 42 months is the 3rd woe. It can be avoided. John just shows what happens if it is unavoidable.
 
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Timtofly

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If God would say to every generation that the second coming will happen during their lives and it did not happen, then yes, its a manipulation.

If every generation believed they are the last generation based on their wrong theology, its not a manipulation by God.

The problem is that the apostolic generation (Jesus, apostles) should be inspired and therefore not to have a wrong theology.
God wants all to be ready at all time. Every generation is correct in thinking God gives them that reason to accept a soon return.

The theology is wrong when theology demands it is only one specific generation that needs to be ready.
 
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trophy33

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The theology is wrong when theology demands it is only one specific generation that needs to be ready.
So, was Jesus wrong when He said it will happen in the generation He lived in?
 
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Timtofly

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So, was Jesus wrong when He said it will happen in the generation He lived in?
Is that your theological demanded interpretation?

The temple was destroyed in 70AD. Was Jesus only talking to infants who lived the next 40 years? Did all those 20 and older live to be 60 and older and no one died during those 40 years? Are you going to state exactly which generation? Or was it the generation that was born in 70AD, and Jesus was not even talking to that generation. They were not born yet in 30AD. Jesus' generation was born in 3BC. They would have all had to be alive for 73 years. Not even the Romans could keep an emperor alive for that long of a period. Several came and died during those 73 years.
 
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DavidPT

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Not exactly. I believe the AC starts (his reign) with power over the saints (5th Seal martyrs) sometime in the 4th Seal. I don't know how long into the Trumpets that goes and I don't see the Word teaching that. Only one Trumpet has a stated time frame, the 5th Trumpet is 5 months. The Bible is quiet on the rest of the Trumpet timeline.

I guard against coming to conclusions where the Bible is quiet. I don't know how long each Seal,Trumpet and Bowls are and I'm ok with that.


You do at least agree that the 7 trumpets are in chronological order, correct? If you do, it is during the 6th trumpet that the 2Ws are still testifying, and that it is after that that the beast makes war with them and kills them. The beast would have to be reigning when he makes war with them. As for me, I don't conclude that the 7 trumpets chronolologically follow the 6th seal. Yet I conclude that the 6th seal involves the 2nd coming and the rapture. That would have to mean that the trumpet events occur during the 6 seal events.
 
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trophy33

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Is that your theological demanded interpretation?

The temple was destroyed in 70AD. Was Jesus only talking to infants who lived the next 40 years? Did all those 20 and older live to be 60 and older and no one died during those 40 years? Are you going to state exactly which generation? Or was it the generation that was born in 70AD, and Jesus was not even talking to that generation. They were not born yet in 30AD. Jesus' generation was born in 3BC. They would have all had to be alive for 73 years. Not even the Romans could keep an emperor alive for that long of a period. Several came and died during those 73 years.
I am not sure if I understand your question (I am not native English speaker).

Jesus preached the gospel of coming kingdom of heaven in around 30-33 AD. He spoke to people around Him, lets say some were young, like 15 years old, some were adult, lets say in their 30', some might be lets say in 40' and some were, of course, older.
Not all, but some of His listeners were very easily alive when the kingdom of heaven came and the kingdom of Israel was put to an end (63-70 AD). For example the apostle John.
 
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DavidPT

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Is that your theological demanded interpretation?

The temple was destroyed in 70AD. Was Jesus only talking to infants who lived the next 40 years? Did all those 20 and older live to be 60 and older and no one died during those 40 years? Are you going to state exactly which generation? Or was it the generation that was born in 70AD, and Jesus was not even talking to that generation. They were not born yet in 30AD. Jesus' generation was born in 3BC. They would have all had to be alive for 73 years. Not even the Romans could keep an emperor alive for that long of a period. Several came and died during those 73 years.


Finally someone arguing some of these things like I might.
 
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Berean Tim

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You do at least agree that the 7 trumpets are in chronological order, correct? If you do, it is during the 6th trumpet that the 2Ws are still testifying, and that it is after that that the beast makes war with them and kills them. The beast would have to be reigning when he makes war with them. As for me, I don't conclude that the 7 trumpets chronolologically follow the 6th seal. Yet I conclude that the 6th seal involves the 2nd coming and the rapture. That would have to mean that the trumpet events occur during the 6 seal events.
I do believe the Trumpets are chronological.
The scripture seems clear to me the Trumpets follow the Seals

Revelation 8:
1When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and
seven trumpets were given to them.

It's not until the 7th Seal is open are the trumpets given to the Angels.

As far as the Two Witness, Revelation 11:
. 3And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
It is (we) that guess which half of the 70th Week they prophesy, the scripture only gives a number of days. We assume it's one half or the other. I (think) that perhaps the 1260 days overlap the Seals & Trumpets , but can't back that with scripture. The 6th Seal makes no mention of the
Two Witness.

How do you determine they're prophesy at the 6th Seal ?
 
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ViaCrucis

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The common word elements in the two passages below prove they are parallel Gospels.
Matthew 24:15-16 cannot be "understood" without John 10:22.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada said the only thing left of Jerusalem was that which belonged to the Romans.


All of those who want to fully understand the text above should read “The Wars of the Jews”, Book 6, chapters 1-7, if you want to understand the temple, and Fort Antonia, and the cloisters that connected them, and the horrors of the war of 70 AD.

Before the temple was destroyed, Titus sent Josephus to speak to the leaders of the Jews in an attempt to stop the horror.
However, the Jews refused to listen.

The Wars of the Jews by Flavius Josephus

.

What happened to Jerusalem was horrific, the Zealots were cruel and massacred even the priests in the Temple until it ran red with blood, and the Romans brought their own brand of cruelty when they took the city. Lots of people died, it was a blood bath, it was arguably the worst period and time in the entire history of the city of Jerusalem, which had never been seen before or since.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Timtofly

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I am not sure if I understand your question (I am not native English speaker).

Jesus preached the gospel of coming kingdom of heaven in around 30-33 AD. He spoke to people around Him, lets say some were young, like 15 years old, some were adult, lets say in their 30', some might be lets say in 40' and some were, of course, older.
Not all, but some of His listeners were very easily alive when the kingdom of heaven came and the kingdom of Israel was put to an end (63-70 AD). For example the apostle John.
Define kingdom of heaven?
 
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DavidPT

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I do believe the Trumpets are chronological.
The scripture seems clear to me the Trumpets follow the Seals

Revelation 8:
1When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and
seven trumpets were given to them.

It's not until the 7th Seal is open are the trumpets given to the Angels.

As far as the Two Witness, Revelation 11:
. 3And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
It is (we) that guess which half of the 70th Week they prophesy, the scripture only gives a number of days. We assume it's one half or the other. I (think) that perhaps the 1260 days overlap the Seals & Trumpets , but can't back that with scripture. The 6th Seal makes no mention of the
Two Witness.

How do you determine they're prophesy at the 6th Seal ?


If one compares the 6th seal with Matthew 24, Matthew 24 places the 6th seal events after the great tribulation, but prior to the 2nd coming. The great tribulation in Matthew 24 is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Revelation 13. That has to mean that the beast has already been reigning 42 months when the 6th seal events begin to occur. But if one takes the trumpets to be meaning after the 6th seal events, we already from the text, that during the 6th trumpet the beast hasn't even waged war with the 2Ws yet, not until they finish their testimony.

Matthew 24:15-26, that is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Immediately after the tribulation of those days--- meaning Matthew 24:15-26 and the 42 months recorded in Revelation 13---- shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken---meaning the 6th seal events recorded in Revelation 6.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other---meaning the 2nd coming and rapture.

Matthew 24:15-26 and Matthew 24:29-31 prove that the 42 month reign of the beast is before the 6th seal events, not after. Therefore, the first trumpet can't be meaning after the 6th seal events since this would place the time of the 2Ws after the time of Matthew 24:15-26, and instead place it during the time of---shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken---which then also applies to the 42 month reign of the beast.

So I'm not saying the beast is reigning during the 6th seal. I'm saying he has already been reigning for 42 months when the 6th seal events begin, IOW at the end of it's reign, that is when the 6th seal events begin.
 
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DavidPT

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How do you determine they're prophesy at the 6th Seal ?


What I'm saying is, before the 6th seal events even occurs, they will have already finished their testimony and will have already been made war against and killed. I see them being killed during the time of Matthew 24: 15-26, since that would be when the beast would be reigning. The book of Revelation is not in chronological order from start to finish. To determine the chronology of events recorded in Revelation, that is done via other sources, such as Matthew 24, as one example.
 
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ewq1938

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And if it were simply a matter of semantics then it wouldn't be an issue. But it's not just semantics.

The term "rapture" conjures some pretty explicit ideas: Of Christians being zapped into heaven before, during, or after a specific 3.5 or 7 year period known as the "Tribulation".

The Scriptures never teach this.

Yes it does:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Caught up is the Greek word Harpazo which through time and various languages became the English word Rapture.


The Scriptures teach, and the Church has always confessed, that Jesus Christ will come again in glory as judge of the living and the dead, and at His coming the dead shall be raised, and both the living and reposed saints shall share in the resurrection. That is the point, in fact, of what Paul is saying in 1 Thessalonians 4, that at the resurrection of the body we who are alive need not worry that we will miss out; because they and we together shall share in the same glorious moment. The moment Jesus comes again as Judge, and all creation is made new.


You left out the harpazo that Paul spoke of, and the same event Christ spoke of when he said the saints would be gathered together. That event cannot be left out.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes it does:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Caught up is the Greek word Harpazo which through time and various languages became the English word Rapture.





You left out the harpazo that Paul spoke of, and the same event Christ spoke of when he said the saints would be gathered together. That event cannot be left out.

Caught up to meet the Lord in the air, yes.

Caught up and taken into heaven, no.

Scripture never says that Jesus is going to beam Christians directly into heaven at the resurrection, it says that we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air--as He comes down here.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Berean Tim

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If one compares the 6th seal with Matthew 24, Matthew 24 places the 6th seal events after the great tribulation, but prior to the 2nd coming. The great tribulation in Matthew 24 is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast recorded in Revelation 13. That has to mean that the beast has already been reigning 42 months when the 6th seal events begin to occur. But if one takes the trumpets to be meaning after the 6th seal events, we already from the text, that during the 6th trumpet the beast hasn't even waged war with the 2Ws yet, not until they finish their testimony.

Matthew 24:15-26, that is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Immediately after the tribulation of those days--- meaning Matthew 24:15-26 and the 42 months recorded in Revelation 13---- shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken---meaning the 6th seal events recorded in Revelation 6.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other---meaning the 2nd coming and rapture.

Matthew 24:15-26 and Matthew 24:29-31 prove that the 42 month reign of the beast is before the 6th seal events, not after. Therefore, the first trumpet can't be meaning after the 6th seal events since this would place the time of the 2Ws after the time of Matthew 24:15-26, and instead place it during the time of---shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken---which then also applies to the 42 month reign of the beast.

So I'm not saying the beast is reigning during the 6th seal. I'm saying he has already been reigning for 42 months when the 6th seal events begin, IOW at the end of it's reign, that is when the 6th seal events begin.
I think it (the 42 months) could overlap the Seals thru the Trumpets. My best (guess) is from the 4th Seal thru the Trumpets. We only have a timeline on one Trumpet (5 months). How long are the others ? I don't know. It is clear the Angels are NOT given the Trumpets until the 7th Seal is open.
Revelation 8:
1When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and
seven trumpets were given to them.

The Trumpets must start after the seals as plainly recorded. I can't get around that.

Most Pre-Wrath folks believe the 6th Seal rapture is 6 years into the 70th Week, with the Trumpets and Bowls completed in the final year. I can't from scripture be definite on that.

I'm keeping my eye on Israel. I can envision scenarios where the AOD and tribulation can occur very quickly. It might not look like we imagined it. For those not watching, it will be like "a thief in the night"
 
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ewq1938

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Caught up to meet the Lord in the air, yes.

Caught up and taken into heaven, no.

The air where the clouds are is heaven, known as the 1st heaven. That's where people are raptured to.


Scripture never says that Jesus is going to beam Christians directly into heaven at the resurrection, it says that we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air--as He comes down here.

See above.
 
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Berean Tim

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And if it were simply a matter of semantics then it wouldn't be an issue. But it's not just semantics.

The term "rapture" conjures some pretty explicit ideas: Of Christians being zapped into heaven before, during, or after a specific 3.5 or 7 year period known as the "Tribulation".

The Scriptures never teach this.

The Scriptures teach, and the Church has always confessed, that Jesus Christ will come again in glory as judge of the living and the dead, and at His coming the dead shall be raised, and both the living and reposed saints shall share in the resurrection. That is the point, in fact, of what Paul is saying in 1 Thessalonians 4, that at the resurrection of the body we who are alive need not worry that we will miss out; because they and we together shall share in the same glorious moment. The moment Jesus comes again as Judge, and all creation is made new.

-CryptoLutheran
Matthew 24:29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The "days" of the AOD and tribulation that follow.

Revelation 13 :5And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.
 
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JulieB67

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Do you believe Paul wrote both letters? How do you reconcile the fact he believed in imminency yet gives a list of events that must occur first before the Lord's return?

Paul definitely wrote both letters. He in fact knew of their own confusion by his first letter, this is why he writes,

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

He's still discussing the same subject as before, our gathering back to Christ.

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

He's telling write them to not be shaken in mind or troubled by spirit, word or even by letter as from us. He's saying don't even be confused by the first letter. And he's about to set them straight on the subject.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Paul sets the record straight on the confusion from his first letter. He tells them very clearly the day of Christ is not at hand -imminent. Although many are still confused to this day. So no, Paul was not teaching that Chris't return was imminent in the first letter although the Thessalonians thought so and so part of Paul's 2nd letter is to clear up that confusion on the timing. He is a second witness to Christ's teaching and both give our warnings on this very subject.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Matthew 24:29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The "days" of the AOD and tribulation that follow.

Revelation 13 :5And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

Where does Jesus say the "tribulation of those days" refers to the end? But let's instead look at what Jesus does say here.

He speaks of the sun becoming dark, the moon not shining, etc. Where else do we see this?

"And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, you young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.
" - Joel 2:28-32

So, okay then, that means that all these things will happen at the end, these are the end times certainly, right? Except, aren't these words familiar?

They are, because this is the passage St. Peter quotes on Pentecost,

"So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, 'Whatever could this mean?' Others mockingly said, 'They are drunk on new wine.'

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, 'Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these here are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But rather this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. And on My manservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; and they shall prophesy.

I will show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
" - Acts of the Apostles 2:12-21

Well now hold the phone a minute, if Joel was talking about "the end times", then why does Peter say this has been fulfilled then, with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost?

There's also this phrase, "the day of the Lord", that's interesting too. It shows up several times in the Old Testament, for example,

"For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. And you shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.

Remember the law of My servant Moses, the statutes and the rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.
" - Malachi 4:1-6

This also is interesting, where have we heard this coming of Elijah to turn fathers to children and children to fathers? Right, in the Gospels,

"Now while [Zechariah] was serving as priest before God when his division was on duty, according to the custom of the priesthood, he was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense. And the whole multitude of the people were praying outside at the hour of incense. And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. And Zechariah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said to him, 'Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice in his birth, for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. And he will turn away many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God, and he will go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.'" - Luke 1:8-17

So John is the Elijah who was to come, yes? Well if there were any confusion, our Lord Jesus Christ tells us quite plainly that yes, John is the promised Elijah,

"Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.'" - Matthew 11:11-15

Elijah was to come before that great day, and John the Baptist did that. And Peter says that the day of the Lord, with darkened sun and moon and the shaking of the heavens was fulfilled when he was speaking then and there on Pentecost.

Well yeah, it is kind of sounding like the "day of the Lord" is about Christ's first advent, at the very least. Elijah came before the day of the Lord - check.
The Holy Spirit would be poured out on the day of the Lord - check.

With the coming of the Lord, and the inauguration of His public ministry through His baptism in the Jordan, culminating in His death, resurrection, and ascension, where He no is seated at the right hand of the Father in glory, with all power, kingdom, and authority these things have been fulfilled. And we are living in that time of the "last days", and inf act we have been for the last two thousand years.

There's also that interesting statement in Joel, that on that day all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

"For the Scripture says, 'Everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing the riches on all who call on Him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" - Romans 10:11-13

So in that great and awesome day, when all who call upon the name of the Lord, it's the going forth of the Gospel to all nations, to Jew and Gentile without discrimination. So that, indeed, all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. That's the Gospel.

But what about when our Lord says they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds into His kingdom?

Well, this comes straight out of Daniel,

"I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a Son of Man, and He came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom; that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom one that shall not be destroyed." - Daniel 7:13-14

Notice what's interesting here, the Son of Man isn't coming down from heaven here, but is taken up into heaven, before the Ancient of Days. He is taken up, on the clouds, and given everlasting kingdom, power, and authority.

"And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.'" - Matthew 28:18

"And when He had said these things, as they were looking on, He was lifted up, and a cloud took Him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as He went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw Him go into heaven.'" - Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11

The Son of Man, taken up on the clouds before the Ancient of Days to receive all kingdom, power, and authority.

To be seated at the right hand of the Father. Where our Lord Christ now reigns as King of kings and Lord of lords, even until the day He returns in glory.

We are living in the day of the Lord, we have been; these are the last days, they have been for two thousand years. The shaking of the heavens is apocalyptic language, because the heavens were shaken and the earth was likewise shook--some of this quite literally when our Lord was crucified. The previous order of things passing, and the new arising--with our Lord Jesus' death and resurrection, taking His Throne as the King Messiah at the right hand of the Father. This is the Messianic Age, the age between the Messiah's first and second comings. The present age of sin and death is passing away, perishing; and in Christ the new has come and is coming. It is both now and not yet, the nearly ubiquitous eschatological tension that runs throughout the entire New Testament.

One day, this old age will finally be no more, for God will make all things new and be all-in-all. When our Lord returns in Judgment, the dead are raised, and there is the restoration of all things.

But here and now, there is the fading of the old and the rising of the new--it's in we ourselves as redeemed sinners, redeemed by grace through faith. So that what is promised is ours now by faith, behold only through the eyes of faith; but then on that Last Day we shall see with our sight. Though our skin might be destroyed, yet with our flesh shall we see God.

Jesus is not talking about a future tribulation, He is not talking about a future "end times". Not here at least.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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