Christ gave his life as a ransom

bling

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The lamb's blood marked the household to be spared from the angel of death during the Exodus period (Exo 12:5) . The lamb was ransom from death (due to bondage/slavery to pharoah). Sin offerings are female lambs (Lev 4:32).
If the sacrificial lamb offered at Passover is a ransom payment, who is making the payment?

If the sacrificial lamb offered at Passover is a ransom payment, who is being paid and why?

Do you have any references to suggest the Jews looked upon the sacrificial lamb at Passover as a ransom payment?

That sacrificial lamb was food for the Jews preparing them for their journey, so did they receive the ransom?

Was the bondage and slavery of the Jews in Egypt “just” disciplining for their previous behavior and did it result in improving the Jews spiritually?

I am not saying there is not a lot of symbolism in the Passover Lamb represent Christ and his blood, but I am not seeing the ransom part of Christ’s life and sacrifice, since the Passover lamb was not a sin offering.

Atonement sin offering can be as little as a bag of flour (Lev. 5) and there were male animal sin offerings also (Lev. 4:3), so I do not see your point?


Consider John 8:31-36, the use of bondage and slavery is used in relation to sin and faith. Jesus is the ransom from death, from the bondage of sin.
Jesus is speaking specifically to a group of Pharisees who want to kill Him and not to all and every sinner. Jesus is preaching to them the truth; this can be so later they might remember this when they come to their senses and repent. Later after the church is established, we find some Pharisee believers, but not now.

I do agree Jesus’ life and death are a huge ransom payment that set a child free to enter the Kingdom, but who is the kidnapper accepting or rejecting that huge payment?

We try to get the unbelieving sinner to accept “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” and not some doctrine, book, theology or message, but the person (Deity). Now if the unbeliever rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” a child is kept from the Father in the Kingdom, but if the sinner accepts “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” a Child is set free to enter the Kingdom and be with God. Will “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the writer of Hebrews as the ransom payment and the person holding a child from his/her Father for an acceptable huge payment from the Father, we call a kidnapper.
 
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bling

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We were ransomed from God's justice (eternal death) by the death of his own divine son.
That sure sounds like you are making God out to be the undeserving criminal kidnapper, since God determines His justice?

What do you not agree with in this reality:
We try to get the unbelieving sinner to accept “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” and not some doctrine, book, theology or message, but the person (Deity). Now if the unbeliever rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” a child is kept from the Father in the Kingdom, but if the sinner accepts “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” a Child is set free to enter the Kingdom and be with God. Will “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the writer of Hebrews as the ransom payment and the person holding a child from his/her Father for an acceptable huge payment from the Father, we call a kidnapper?


God is both justice and the justifier (Romans 3:26).
The context of Ro. 3:26 explains a lot if we dig into the message:

Romans 3:25 New International Version (NIV) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.

I use the NIV though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which most just translate with “past over”, since the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, I the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go. Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast.

There are lots of excellent benefits from being disciplined, but prior to Christ’s crucifixion, there was no way to fairly/justly discipline a rebellious disobedient repentant child seeking forgiveness and allow the child to live. The disciplines were just to hard being banishment or physical death. By Christ going to the cross we can now be “crucified with Christ”, empathetically. How severe of a disciplining is this for Christians and how would it compare to the pain and sorrow God went through while Christ was crucified?

Notice there is no language suggesting the sins are put on hold, rolled forward or dealt with later, but are “passed over”/left unpunished.

Lets look at the rest of the passage:

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive/accept that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

Have you ever stopped to think about what Christ went through while on the cross because of your actions personally?

Now verse: 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

God is always righteous but only after Christ went to the cross (the present time) could He show His righteousness in justifying people, so what was the problem before Christ went to the cross?

If we say prior to the cross, people were forgiven and justified by the same cross, there is no difference, just a timing issue, but there is a huge difference. Only after the cross can people literally experience empathetically being crucified with Christ, so God can be seen as a Loving parent providing excellent just disciplining of His children.
 
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Clare73

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Hm, is it not so that God's justice is also to save the redeemed? Better wording would be: "We are ransomed from God's judgement" IMO.
God's judgment (punishment) is required by God's justice.
They are saved after they have been delivered from his justice on their sin (condemnation--Romans 5:18), through their faith and trust in the atoning work of Christ.
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because
in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
— Romans 3:25-26
 
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Clare73

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If the sacrificial lamb offered at Passover is a ransom payment, who is making the payment?
If the sacrificial lamb offered at Passover is a ransom payment, who is being paid and why?
Do you have any references to suggest the Jews looked upon the sacrificial lamb at Passover as a ransom payment?
Nor do we have any reference to suggest that the Jews looked upon any the sacrifices as prefigures of the bloody sacrifice of God's one and only Son.

The sacrificial Lamb of God offered on the cross was the ransom from eternal death.
God's justice required the sacrifice, and God himself provided the sacrifice in his one and only Son.
That sacrificial lamb was food for the Jews preparing them for their journey, so did they receive the ransom?

Was the bondage and slavery of the Jews in Egypt “just” disciplining for their previous behavior and did it result in improving the Jews spiritually?
I am not saying there is not a lot of symbolism in the Passover Lamb represent Christ and his blood, but I am not seeing the ransom part of Christ’s life and sacrifice, since the Passover lamb was not a sin offering.
Agreed. . .the effect of Christ's sacrifice is presented several ways in the NT.

Christ's shed blood saves us from eternal death, as/like the blood on the doorposts saved them from the angel of death in Egypt at Passover.

That sacrifice also bore our sin as/like the sin offering on the Day of Atonement.

That sacrifice also bought us back from eternal death as/like a ransom (Matthew 20:28).

Atonement sin offering can be as little as a bag of flour (Lev. 5) and there were male animal sin offerings also (Lev. 4:3), so I do not see your point?

Jesus is speaking specifically to a group of Pharisees who want to kill Him and not to all and every sinner. Jesus is preaching to them the truth; this can be so later they might remember this when they come to their senses and repent. Later after the church is established, we find some Pharisee believers, but not now.

I do agree Jesus’ life and death are a huge ransom payment that set a child free to enter the Kingdom, but who is the kidnapper accepting or rejecting that huge payment?

We try to get the unbelieving sinner to accept “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” and not some doctrine, book, theology or message, but the person (Deity). Now if the unbeliever rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” a child is kept from the Father in the Kingdom, but if the sinner accepts “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” a Child is set free to enter the Kingdom and be with God. Will “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the writer of Hebrews as the ransom payment and the person holding a child from his/her Father for an acceptable huge payment from the Father, we call a kidnapper.
 
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Clare73

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That sure sounds like you are making God out to be the undeserving criminal kidnapper, since God determines His justice?
So you would have God using different standards for his application of justice?
That's not justice.
What do you not agree with in this reality:
Why do you not agree with Jesus' reality in Matthew 20:28?

It's not complicated.

Tell me about your baptism.
We try to get the unbelieving sinner to accept “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” and not some doctrine, book, theology or message, but the person (Deity). Now if the unbeliever rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” a child is kept from the Father in the Kingdom, but if the sinner accepts “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” a Child is set free to enter the Kingdom and be with God. Will “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the writer of Hebrews as the ransom payment and the person holding a child from his/her Father for an acceptable huge payment from the Father, we call a kidnapper?
And when the sinner begins to question why Jesus was crucified, what say ye?
And when he begins to probe the reasons you give, what say ye then?
Sooner or later, you're going to have to deal with the NT presentation of Jesus saving from God's condemnation to eternal death.

I must let you know this feels like parlaying with the devil, "Hath God said?" (Genesis 3:1), and is most egregious to me, this kind of unbelief and complete re-arranging of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
(2 Timothy 4:3-4; Galatians 1:9)

The context of Ro. 3:26 explains a lot if we dig into the message:

Romans 3:25 New International Version (NIV) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.

I use the NIV though I do not like any translation, NIV does what I consider to be the best translation of the Greek word πάρεσις (paresis) which most just translate with “past over”, since the NIV translates it “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”. The Greek word Πάρεσις is only found here in the Greek New Testament and not used at all in the Greek Old Testament, so it is difficult to translate, but really not that hard, since secular koine Greek manuscripts can be found using πάρεσις. It is used to describe when a lender, on rare occasions, does not put a debtor in prison to try and get some of his money back from friends and relatives of the debtor, before releasing him. So, I
the context of Ro. 3:25 the forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined/punished for their sins but were just forgiven and let go.
No, they were simply unpunished at the time, punishment was not removed, it was only delayed until the cross.
Since Paul is making his argument showing a huge contrast between Jews before and after the cross, those after the cross would have to go through some “punishment” or better expressed as some disciplining to be a contrast.
None who believed in the Promise (of Christ--Genesis 15:5), or who are in Christ (the Promise) through belief, have to go through any punishment at all. Jesus did it for them.
There are lots of excellent benefits from being disciplined, but prior to Christ’s crucifixion, there was no way to fairly/justly discipline a rebellious disobedient repentant child seeking forgiveness and allow the child to live. The disciplines were just to hard being banishment or physical death. By Christ going to the cross we can now be “crucified with Christ”, empathetically.
Run, Forest, run!

That's my cue. . .is this a troll job by an anti-Christian? . .sorry, done here.
How severe of a disciplining is this for Christians and how would it compare to the pain and sorrow God went through while Christ was crucified?

Notice there is no language suggesting the sins are put on hold, rolled forward or dealt with later, but are “passed over”/left unpunished.

Lets look at the rest of the passage:

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive/accept that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

Have you ever stopped to think about what Christ went through while on the cross because of your actions personally?

Now verse: 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

God is always righteous but only after Christ went to the cross (the present time) could He show His righteousness in justifying people, so what was the problem before Christ went to the cross?

If we say prior to the cross, people were forgiven and justified by the same cross, there is no difference, just a timing issue, but there is a huge difference. Only after the cross can people literally experience empathetically being crucified with Christ, so God can be seen as a Loving parent providing excellent just disciplining of His children.
 
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bling

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Nor do we have any reference to suggest that the Jews looked upon any the sacrifices as prefigures of the bloody sacrifice of God's one and only Son.
OK but not the issue, this was asked because the person being addressed was making that connection.



The sacrificial Lamb of God offered on the cross was the ransom from eternal death.
God's justice required the sacrifice, and God himself provided the sacrifice in his one and only Son.
Who are you saying is the undeserving criminal kidnapper accepting this ransom payment?

So, you feel God “needs” something to be just?

God is the author of justice and has always been just. Where, do we find in scripture, it is “just” to require the torture, humiliation and murder of an innocent being/person to allow the guilty to go free?

The Bible presents just and unjust both in words, examples and with Jesus where the innocent is never to be punished for any reason and the guilty are to be punished or disciplined if at all possible.


Agreed. . .the effect of Christ's sacrifice is presented several ways in the NT.

Christ's shed blood saves us from eternal death, as/like the blood on the doorposts saved them from the angel of death in Egypt at Passover.
First off: “acts” do not save us, God saves us. Symbolic actions help us to see and maybe understand better what God is doing.

Christ’s blood showers us as we walk the path of life cleaning us outwardly and internally, but the blood of the Passover Lamb did not clean the people of sin, but kept physical death away for some.


That sacrifice also bore our sin as/like the sin offering on the Day of Atonement.
Which goat bore our the Jewish sins on the day of atonement and what sins are we talking about (was rape included in the sins being bore)?


That sacrifice also bought us back from eternal death as/like a ransom (Matthew 20:28).
Again, did the physical sacrifice bring us back or did God’s forgiveness bring us back?
 
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Clare73

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OK but not the issue, this was asked because the person being addressed was making that connection.

Who are you saying is the undeserving criminal kidnapper accepting this ransom payment?
Not my question to answer. . .Jesus is the one who said he was a ransom (Matthew 20:28). . .you'll have to ask him.

Tell me about your baptism.

And that's all the parlaying with "Hath God said?" (Genesis 3:1) for this one.
 
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bling

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So you would have God using different standards for his application of justice?
That's not justice.
God is totally consistent and is not a hypocrite (giving us one standard and applying a different standard of justice to Himself). That is being just.


Why do you not agree with Jesus' reality in Matthew 20:28?
Matt. 20: 28 even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

I am very much totally in agreement with that verse, the question is: “Who did Christ offer this ransom to which many accepted?”


It's not complicated.
You are very right since, “the process of atonement” is something much easier experienced, then it is explained intellectually. When the nonbelieving sinner comes to the realization his personal sins caused Christ to be tortured, humiliated and murdered on the cross, he has that death blow to his heart (the worst feeling he can have and live) as did those on Pentecost (Acts 2:37) and will cry out in sorrow for help. He is experience empathically being crucified with Christ, which is fair, just, loving discipline for him as a sinner.

It is not at all hard for the nonbelieving sinner to personally experience Christ in human flesh, listening to him, teaching him, spending time with him, seeing wonderful things happening with Christ in front of him, and Christ Loving on him all through a Christian having Christ in them and living through them. It is thus up to the nonbelieving sinner to accept Christ (the ransom payment). If he rejects the ransom payment a child is kept out of the kingdom.


And when the sinner begins to question why Jesus was crucified, what say ye?
That is the question I love to be asked and now we have a wonderful learning experience!

I have been asked this many times by nonbelieving sinners, but I try to let the Spirit lead me to the very best answer for that individual at this particular point in their spiritual growth. I have a hard time knowing where you are at, so I might not give the best answer for you.


Generally, and being very logical:

Jesus was crucified because of your sins and to benefit you. (I should have already explained the objective in life and how God is doing everything possible to help them in their completing that objective.)

(If they knew what a good parent is), I can talk about God being the very best parent who can easily forgive His rebellious disobedient children, but will also if at all possible, see to His children’s fair, just loving disciplining. (I might go over the benefits of fair, just loving discipline and being a good child that willingly accepts correct discipline even though it is hard at the time.)

God and Christ are personally going through your disciplining with you (like wonderful parent do), so it can be a relationship growing experience.

Christ willingly forced himself to spent the time needed on the cross to complete all prophecies concerning Him and allow us to experience the pain of being crucified with Him.

I personally need all the help I can get to feel, experience, know how unbelievably hugely sin’s hurt is and thus how much I have been forgiven of (this is all so I will Love like God Loves “he that is forgiven much Loves much”). I need to really experience being Loved beyond believe, God is my Loving parent, and Jesus Loves me.

I would use further questions to go deeper.

Some have, Christ going to the cross as being God’s fault for not being able to forgive us without a sacrifice, but what is your reason?


And when he begins to probe the reasons you give, what say ye then?
Sooner or later, you're going to have to deal with the NT presentation of Jesus saving from God's condemnation to eternal death.

I must let you know this feels like parlaying with the devil, "Hath God said?" (Genesis 3:1), and is most egregious to me, this kind of unbelief and complete re-arranging of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
(2 Timothy 4:3-4; Galatians 1:9)

God’s forgiveness saves people, not some actions.



No, they were simply unpunished at the time, punishment was not removed, it was only delayed until the cross.
The Greek word does not mean “delayed, rolled forward or postponed” but does mean “not punished’.

If it did mean “delayed” there would be no contrast between the way sins were handled before and after the cross, making Paul’s argument worthless.


None who believed in the Promise (of Christ--Genesis 15:5), or who are in Christ (the Promise) through belief, have to go through any punishment at all. Jesus did it for them.
“for” is rarely used to convey the idea of, “instead of”. There are at least four Greek words that are sometimes translated in the English, “for”, but only one “anti” is used only sometimes to mean “instead of”. The Greek “anti” is use once in the context of atonement when Jesus talked about being a ransom for many, but there it could mean because of many or to benefit many or as a gift to many and does not have to mean instead of many equaling the “ransom”. All the other times “anti” is not used.


That's my cue. . .is this a troll job by an anti-Christian? . .sorry, done here.
How can I see that as a kind question?
 
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Chi.C

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If the sacrificial lamb offered at Passover is a ransom payment, who is making the payment?

If the sacrificial lamb offered at Passover is a ransom payment, who is being paid and why?

Do you have any references to suggest the Jews looked upon the sacrificial lamb at Passover as a ransom payment?

Payer is God - the unblemished of firstborn of the flock is the property of God.

The payment is to redeem the firstborn of his people from the bondage to the pharaoh. The word ransom is english and modern. The greek λύτρον is plainly has to do with slavery.

Exodus 13:13-14 shows the ransom with respect firstlings

That sacrificial lamb was food for the Jews preparing them for their journey, so did they receive the ransom?

Was the bondage and slavery of the Jews in Egypt “just” disciplining for their previous behavior and did it result in improving the Jews spiritually?

>Be more specific. I suspect you once again misunderstand "ransom"

>Be more specific. I recollect no call for discipline of the Israelites in that Abrahamic epoch.

I am not saying there is not a lot of
symbolism in the Passover Lamb represent Christ and his blood, but I am not seeing the ransom part of Christ’s life and sacrifice, since the Passover lamb was not a sin offering.

Atonement sin offering can be as little as a bag of flour (Lev. 5) and there were male animal sin offerings also (Lev. 4:3), so I do not see your point?

The point is Jesus is the Lamb. He is the only begotten Son of God. He is the Male Lamb. OT rules specifies the meaning of his sacrifice. Talking about other animals is impertinent.

I do agree Jesus’ life and death are a huge ransom payment that set a child free to enter the Kingdom, but who is the kidnapper accepting or rejecting that huge payment?

We try to get the unbelieving sinner to accept “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” and not some doctrine, book, theology or message, but the person (Deity). Now if the unbeliever rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” a child is kept from the Father in the Kingdom, but if the sinner accepts “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” a Child is set free to enter the Kingdom and be with God. Will “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the writer of Hebrews as the ransom payment and the person holding a child from his/her Father for an acceptable huge payment from the Father, we call a kidnapper.

Once again you misunderstand ransom as the modern meaning. There is no kidnapper per se. The slave owner is sin, the bondage is death. Jesus is the Messiah (Liberator). Liberation from the Sin, who's wages is death. The price of liberation from Sin is death - the ransom. Jesus died (paid the price) as ransom for our freedom from sin.
 
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bling

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Not my question to answer. . .Jesus is the one who said he was a ransom (Matthew 20:28). . .you'll have to ask him.

And that's all the parlaying with "Hath God said?" (Genesis 3:1) for this one.
It is very simple to answer and I have answered it several times on this thread, so you have no answer?
 
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Clare73

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Matt. 20: 28 even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

I am very much totally in agreement with that verse, the question is: “Who did Christ offer this ransom to which many accepted?”
You believe it, you answer it. . .you have as much information as everyone else.
 
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Clare73

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It is very simple to answer and I have answered it several times on this thread, so
you have no answer?
Not that I want to parlay about with "Hath God said?" (Genesis 3:1)
 
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Jesusfann777888

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So you would have God using different standards for his application of justice?
That's not justice.
Why do you not agree with Jesus' reality in Matthew 20:28?

It's not complicated.
And when the sinner begins to question why Jesus was crucified, what say ye?
And when he begins to probe the reasons you give, what say ye then?
Sooner or later, you're going to have to deal with the NT presentation of Jesus saving from God's condemnation to eternal death.

I must let you know this feels like parlaying with the devil, "Hath God said?" (Genesis 3:1), and is most egregious to me, this kind of unbelief and complete re-arranging of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
(2 Timothy 4:3-4; Galatians 1:9)

No, they were simply unpunished at the time, punishment was not removed, it was only delayed until the cross.
None who believed in the Promise (of Christ--Genesis 15:5), or who are in Christ (the Promise) through belief, have to go through any punishment at all. Jesus did it for them.

Run, Forest, run!

That's my cue. . .is this a troll job by an anti-Christian? . .sorry, done here.

man where do you begin with some of the thing's you people read into Scripture, I know I'm confused but, you guy's are taking Scripture and giving it a context that I don't even know how your arriving at.

1. When Adam sinned, he became spiritually seperated from God, which is defined as a spiritual death. If that's even what happened.

Contextually, because Adam sinned, the nature of the flesh is what predominantly influences born children, a nature by which, satan can manipulate man, because it is a fallen nature.

the sin nature, or the nature absent of God'S HOly Spirit, indwelling a person, Charecterize's Impluses that are not Influencef by God's Spirit or nature, as a result of seperation from man.

When Your talking about God's Plan of Salvation, God had already realized man would sin and would require someone to effectively pay the "randsom" that is associated with sin, the penalty being death.

In Context, God The Father, Had God The Son, who Existed before Creation, die in man's place.if this is Conceptually hard to realize, Understand this has to do with what God was doing in the world he created that pertain's to His Plan for it, because of man's sin.

Now When God effectively died in man's place, he paid a randsom, a debt, that is associated with each and every sinner and the individual debt they incur because of sin.

so when God Died in man's place, as a Consequence for our individual sin's he paid everyone's debt as a sacrifice for all mankind and allowed for human beings to become son's through adoption, by professing His Son Whom He Sent.

Whatever your talking about confuse's me to a degree I have never been confused to before.
 
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Clare73

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man where do you being with some of the thing's you people read into Scripture, I know I'm confused but, you guy's are taking Scripture and giving it a context that I don't even know how your arriving at.

1. When Adam sinned, he became spiritually seperated from God, which is defined as a spiritual death. If that's even what happened.

Contextually, because Adam sinned, the nature of the flesh is what predominantly influences born children, a nature by which, satan can manipulate, because it is a fallen nature.

the sin nature, or the nature absent of God'S HOly Spirit, indwelling a person, Charecterize's Impluses that are not Influences by God's Spirit or nature.

When Your talking about God's Plan of Salvation, God had already realized man would sin and would require someone to effectively pay the random that is associated with sin, the penalty being death.

In Context, God The Father, Had God The Son, who Existed before Creation, die in man's place.if this is Conceptual hard to realize, Understand this has to do with what God was doing in the world he created that pertain's to His Plan for it.

Now When God effectively died in man's place, he paid a random, a debt, that is associated with each and every sinner and the individual debt they incur because of sin.

so when God Died in man's place, as a Consequence for our individual sin's he paid everyone's debt as a sacrifice for all mankind and allowed for human beings to become son's through adoption.

Whatever your talking about confuse's me to a degree I have never been confused to before.
Don't pay any attention to this particular conversation. . .one of the participants does not take God at his word and seeks to re-work the gospel to make it more in agreement with his own fancies.
 
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Jesusfann777888

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Don't pay any attention to this particular conversation. . .one of the participants does not take God at his word and seeks to re-work the gospel to make it more in agreement with his own fancies.
Maybe he's confused, or there's an underlining issue. I think it's always best to approach someone with the idea of assistance rather than hatred because I can already tell I'm hated by some of the member's here over what I'm confused about.

you have to remember satan works individually with people the same as Jesus does to confuse them. So it's always best to ensure that you never get into an argument because then that person might get angry with Yahweh and blaspheme, when that happens satan takes an incredible amount of time to make them as angry as possible and make sure they target Christian's and Christianity. Christian's must take time in all patience to explain things without being offended because satan is a few words that can't be said here.
 
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Clare73

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Maybe he's confused, or there's an underlining issue. I think it's always best to approach someone with the idea of assistance rather than hatred because I can already tell I'm hated by some of the member's here over what I'm confused about.

you have to remember satan works individually with people the same as Jesus does to confuse them. So it's always best to ensure that you never get into an argument because then that person might get angry with Yahweh and blaspheme, when that happens satan takes an incredible amount of time to make them as angry as possible and make sure they target Christian's and Christianity. Christian's must take time in all patience to explain things without being offended because satan is a few words that can't be said here.
I hear you, but I've had extensive discussion with this poster, and his beliefs are bizarre.
He defends them vigorously, wrestling the Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16) to do so.
He should be resisted. (1Timothy 4:16)
 
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I hear you, but I've had extensive discussion with this poster, and his beliefs are bizarre.
He defends them vigorously, wrestling the Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16) to do so.
He should be resisted. (1Timothy 4:16)
Well, I've had some bizzare expieriences and I think, the problem is based on what people are capable of understanding.

For instance, I expierience things that I know are of the devil and these things haven't stopped. They have become so vigorous, and there is Scripture associated with what I'm expieriencing that is starting to make me mad.

Maybe the devil really just confused him. I'm expieriencing something and DON't take this out of context, I'd run satan over with a train, that I understand why people are confused in the world and it's starting to get me to question how if people can be deceived, and so long as it's not intentional that they are deceiving other's, how God casts people into hell being deceived by something that is almost as old as time.

I have also started reading Bible verses and can't conceptually understand Certain thing's about God anymore. I have a basic Comprehension, but something that is notorious for it's idea that it has power and Expierience, and seek's out to damn people, I'm not to sure how simple understanding the Scripture, while not getting demolished by the devil is possible. I don't hide my sin, I'm just at a point where stress in my life is at 100% and when reading The Bible Verse, " God won't let you be tempted beyond what you can handle ", I'm assuming God as a Soverighn can instead Authoritatively Chose when or not something apply's.

So, I'm trying to suggest, that people can't be helped over night. while at the same time having question's no one can answer. Just be nice to him, Sometime's information doesn't help what kindness can.the devil's responsible for every bizzare belief out there, and that's where religion comes fr, and he's making new one's everyday. some people may not even perceive satan is the cause of their belief's so they never address the problem.

In my case, I'm starting to wonder how God allowed "my problem"
 
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I hear you, but I've had extensive discussion with this poster, and his beliefs are bizarre.
He defends them vigorously, wrestling the Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16) to do so.
He should be resisted. (1Timothy 4:16)
Look at it this way.
1. People who have subjective expieriences question what they have been raised to understand. this is how the devil get's people, and how he cause's strange belief's masquerading and dictating people's luve's and life Circumstance's.

He Blind's them to The Gospel by causing a host of spiritual expierience's and in that, Even I question God about how they deserve hell.
 
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I hear you, but I've had extensive discussion with this poster, and his beliefs are bizarre.
He defends them vigorously, wrestling the Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16) to do so.
He should be resisted. (1Timothy 4:16)
My problem is The Bible states satan has blinded the mind of men, but when you understand how The Scripture and the context don't seem honest.

How he does it, makes me question how a human blinded by the devil can be at fault. If it's their choice, that's one thing, bit there are other things that are problatic, yet I know not what God know's so I'm going to shut my mouth and go fishing.
 
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My problem is The Bible states satan has blinded the mind of men, but when you understand how The Scripture and the context don't seem honest.

How he does it, makes me question how a human blinded by the devil can be at fault. If it's their choice, that's one thing, bit there are other things that are problatic, yet I know not what God know's so I'm going to shut my mouth and go fishing.
And trust him! And pray!
 
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