Is Once Saved Always Saved Biblical?

Carl Emerson said:

The prodigal son was never not a son.

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A dead son is not saved. But an alive son is saved.
Anyways, what is the spiritual meaning behind the son being ALIVE AGAIN mean to you? There really is no answer that makes any sense in a sin and still be saved type belief. Did you also check James 5:19-20? What do you think that passage is saying? Again, I don't think you can believe this passage at face value.

Bible Highlighter said:

But dead sons do not partake in family picnics, and or family reunions. Dead sons are in the grave.

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Yep... I was outside of the blessings of the Kingdom due to disobedience - as good as dead - but still a son Praise God.

Bible Highlighter said:

Scripture talks about how the children of the kingdom were cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12).
Another translation says “sons of the kingdom” instead of the “children of the kingdom.”
So being a son did not save them! For gnashing of teeth is what wolves do.

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That reference to the 'sons of the kingdom' is not blood washed believers in the New Covenant.

Carl Emerson said:

Yep... I was outside of the blessings of the Kingdom due to disobedience - as good as dead - but still a son Praise God.

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Again, what do you make of James 5:19-20 that teaches the same truth in the Parable of the Prodigal Son? Note: This would be the truth that a believer can die spiritually because of sin, and then come back to rededicating their life to Christ (seeking forgiveness with Him) to the saving of their soul.

Bible Highlighter said:

A dead son is not saved. But an alive son is saved.
Anyways, what is the spiritual meaning behind the son being ALIVE AGAIN mean to you? There really is no answer that makes any sense in a sin and still be saved type belief. Did you also check James 5:19-20? What do you think that passage is saying? Again, I don't think you can believe this passage at face value.

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The prodigal son was not physically dead He was spiritually dead and by Grace found His way back to Kingdom blessing where there is truth and life. (so much that the elder brother was jealous of him) There is no record of him renouncing his faith.
There is a sin that is unforgivable - I never committed that.

As for James 5... this is confirmation that what I claim is true - there were folks appointed to assist my journey back.
Jesus did not want me to eternally die as a Father loves a son - so He intervened directly by Grace.

Incidently If you don't believe God does this you can give no hope to folks who slip away into sin - rather you sit in judgement over them.

It is worth noting that Hebrews 6 makes it clear that we cant be born again twice because that would be to shame the blood of Jesus (as if it couldn't do the job first time around)

To me both sides of this debate end up with the same result.

1. You can leave your salvation.

2. If you leave your salvation it means you were never really saved - so OSAS doesn't apply to that person.

MMXX said:

To me both sides of this debate end up with the same result.

1. You can leave your salvation.

2. If you leave your salvation it means you were never really saved - so OSAS doesn't apply to that person.

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Pretty much it...

Note Jer 32:40

Jeremiah prophesies concerning the New Covenant...

39 I will give them one heart and one way, so that they will always fear Me for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never turn away from doing good to them, and I will put My fear in their hearts, so that they will never turn away from Me.
41 Yes, I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.…

Being truely born again means being indwelled with the fear of Him which seals our salvation. We cant cross the line to renouncing the faith.

Carl Emerson said:

Pretty much it...

Note Jer 32:40

Jeremiah prophesies concerning the New Covenant...

39 I will give them one heart and one way, so that they will always fear Me for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never turn away from doing good to them, and I will put My fear in their hearts, so that they will never turn away from Me.
41 Yes, I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.…

Being truely born again means being indwelled with the fear of Him which seals our salvation. We cant cross the line to renouncing the faith.

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It's inconceivable to me that I would turn away from the Lord and no longer fear Him. There's no scenario I've thought up that would cause that. As a matter of fact the worse the scenario, the more I would cling to the Lord. I've had my spells of a certain amount of complacency, but that's always had its limits (1 Corinthians 10:13). The Spirit always brings me out of it. It's a no lose situation.

Totally agree - this is a sign of a truely indwelled believer...

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Romans 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Colossians 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Albion said:

If a person takes the view that he is home free because he believes, he obviously does not have saving Faith.

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True.

And there's that often misunderstood word again, "believe" Believing is fine but only if we believe in the full sense of the term.

Some insist it only means to say we believe. I've even heard people here say, technically we don't even have to do as Christ tells us, just say we believe.

When we believe in Christ, we must believe all he is about, including all he tells us, as his words are him. If it weren't for his words, we would not know the way to heaven, but it seems some adhere to the words that are advantages to us, yet discount the ones that demand we do something we don't want to do.

Faith without works is dead.

MMXX said:

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

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OSAS takes that to mean, no matter how we act, God holds on to us, but in order to truly be his "sheep" we must obey Christ. When we refuse to, or stop obeying and begin to live in sin, we are no longer his Sheep.

So are we brave enough to not knock the full meaning out of that scripture, or will we believe the short sighted/easy way version?

Kenny'sID said:

True.

And there's that often misunderstood word again, "believe" Believing is fine but only if we believe in the full sense of the term.

Some insist it only means to say we believe. I've even heard people here say, technically we don't even have to do as Christ tells us, just say we believe.

When we believe in Christ, we must believe all he is about, including all he tells us, as his words are him. If it weren't for his words, we would not know the way to heaven, but it seems some adhere to the words that are advantages to us, yet discount the ones that demand we do something we don't want to do.

Faith without works is dead.

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The objection usually isn't in doing works, it's the idea that works and performance is our way to heaven. Many come close to saying that and some say it outright.

Kenny'sID said:

OSAS takes that to mean, no matter how we act, God holds on to us, but in order to truly be his "sheep" we must obey Christ. When we refuse to, or stop obeying and begin to live in sin, we are no longer his Sheep.

So are we brave enough to not knock the full meaning out of that scripture, or will we believe the short sighted/easy way version?

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Probably one can go too far in either direction. Someone who bases their salvation upon their works and performance, could be in the same boat.

Kenny'sID said:

True.

And there's that often misunderstood word again, "believe" Believing is fine but only if we believe in the full sense of the term.

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Right. We both agree about that.

When we believe in Christ, we must believe all he is about, including all he tells us, as his words are him. If it weren't for his words, we would not know the way to heaven, but it seems some adhere to the words that are advantages to us, yet discount the ones that demand we do something we don't want to do.

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Very well, then the "bottom line" to this issue is that the POV which goes like this: "I am a Christian so I can do whatever I want because I am assured of salvation" is not possible in the case of someone who actually has Faith.

If you have saving Faith, you will never adopt that attitude. Therefore, that view does not bear upon the debate over OSAS vs freewill.

Faith without works is dead.

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That's right, but what James was saying is that the CLAIM of having Faith is disproved if you don't try to live a changed life. He's not saying that we are saved by good works, not even in tandem with Faith.

OSAS takes that to mean, no matter how we act, God holds on to us, but in order to truly be his "sheep" we must obey Christ. When we refuse to, or stop obeying and begin to live in sin, we are no longer his Sheep.

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But if we take that view, it means that his sheep are NOT all his sheep and that they do NOT hear his voice. Yet the passage says the opposite.

In addition to that, we also know from Scripture that the Good Shepherd will leave the flock to go in search of and find the one stray, so that also is telling us that the sheep are always his and that it's not a matter of any of them deciding to go astray with the Lord responding to that by giving up on them.

Carl Emerson said:

The prodigal son was not physically dead He was spiritually dead and by Grace found His way back to Kingdom blessing where there is truth and life. (so much that the elder brother was jealous of him) There is no record of him renouncing his faith.
There is a sin that is unforgivable - I never committed that.

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Now you appear to be singing a different tune, my friend (or I am not understanding what you actually believe). You are now saying a believer abides in spiritual death during the time period of while they are prodigal. Does spiritual death equate with a loss of salvation in your view? Remember, the father said his son was also lost, and now he is found, too.

Also, you do not appear to understand my position on sin and salvation, either.

You appear to look at salvation as in a final event. A one and your done kind of concept. I believe that if a believer goes prodigal, they are dead spiritually (they are on the road to hell) UNLESS they repent (i.e. seek forgiveness of their sin with the Lord Jesus Christ). So yes, there is a chance at salvation again, but they have to repent. If they do not confess of their sins to Jesus and they refuse to give up their sins, they will end up dying in a physical state of death and be condemned by God. But only God knows a person's heart and if they will change or not and repent. If there is no repentance, there is no forgiveness or salvation. You appear to be against this idea initially because you implied that a believer is still saved during the time they are prodigal by saying they are still a son of the kingdom (i.e. saved). But this means that a believer can sin as much as they want and still be saved (of which the Bible is emphatically against - See: Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8).

In fact, the closing chapter of our Bible says,
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:14-15).

You said:

As for James 5... this is confirmation that what I claim is true - there were folks appointed to assist my journey back.
Jesus did not want me to eternally die as a Father loves a son - so He intervened directly by Grace.

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What do you mean that the Lord intervened directly by Grace? Are you saying that even if you continued down a road of sin, you would still be saved? Are you saying that the Lord forced you to come back against your own free will to repent of your mortal sins and to then walk uprightly?

You said:

Incidently If you don't believe God does this you can give no hope to folks who slip away into sin - rather you sit in judgement over them.

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I am not trying to judge you personally in any way. That is not my thing. I believe the most wicked of sinners can change by God's grace. Look at the apostle Paul. Who would have thought Saul (a persecutor of Christians) would have been a great servant of God? All I am here to do is teach the proper view on sin and salvation according to the Bible. So it's not personal, and I am not looking through down the hammer of judgment upon anyone. For even I need God's grace, as well. The point here is that God's Word does not teach that we can turn His grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). So I am attacking the wrong belief and not any actual person here.

Scripture tells me to work out my salvation with fear and trembling, but by what you described so far, that does not sound like the same view of salvation as described in Philippians 2:12.

MMXX said:

The objection usually isn't in doing works, it's the idea that works and performance is our way to heaven. Many come close to saying that and some say it outright.

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Because after we are saved by God's grace, the Bible does teach that “works” is a part of the faith. For Paul mentions this thing called the “work of faith” in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. So the “work of faith” is a part of the faith and it is not a separate thing. Yet, some want to separate the “work of faith” from the faith. It would be like saying the “work of God” and then claiming later that such a work is not of God (or a part of God in some way). The work of faith lines up with what James says. For James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James is saying that a faith (belief) is dead without the “work of faith” because the “work of faith” is a natural part of the faith. For if we are saved by God's grace THROUGH faith, then faith is merely the vehicle that accesses the saving grace of God. This would include the “work of faith.” How so? Just read 1 John 1:7. For 1 John 1:7 basically says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. The light is God (1 John 1:5). Walking in the light is the equivalent of loving your brother by the use of indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11. This is confirmed in the act that 1 John 3:10 that says, “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” So righteous actions and loving one's brother determines if one is truly of God (i.e. saved). You say that a believer cannot help but to do good works. I beg to differ.

We are told:



We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

In addition, the only good works a believer can do is by allowing God to do the good work through them (Philippians 2:13) (John 15:5); And God does not listen to those who regard iniquity in their heart (See: Psalms 66:18, John 9:31). For we know that good works done by a believer will not save if they also work iniquity or sin (See: Matthew 7:22-23). For not everyone who says unto me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 7:21, cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

In fact, how do you receive faith? Well, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). This would be hearing the words in Scripture or the Holy Bible. That is how we get the faith. So the whole Bible is a part of the faith. So if the Bible teaches us that Christians must have good works, holy living, and that we cannot justify sin, then that is a part of the faith.

Side Note:

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5: Paul is referring to “Works ALONE Salvationism” (without God's grace). Ephesians 2:9 is dealing with Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism. Yet, Ephesians 2:10 is dealing with the “work of faith” that follows after we are saved by God's grace. Ephesians 2:10 is referring to a God Directed Work done through the believer (Where there is no boasting in oneself like in Ephesians 2:9 but there is only a boasting in the goodness of God). Most in the “Belief Alone for Salvation” camp confuse this issue, though.

MMXX said:

To me both sides of this debate end up with the same result.

1. You can leave your salvation.

2. If you leave your salvation it means you were never really saved - so OSAS doesn't apply to that person.

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Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, any person who is honest with themselves when reading the above verses will not conclude that these verses are teaching that a person was never saved to begin with.

Also, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalms 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts of the Apostles 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)