No Lives Matter vs All Lives Matter

Strathos

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Yes! Wealth does not add or take away your right to be a jerk; neither does being poor.

Oh, those poor, set-upon billionaires :rolleyes:

This seems to be our fundamental disconnect here, so let me try another example.

John Doe is a poor, conservative-leaning man who lives in a trailer park in Alabama. He's not famous or well-known, and his only followers on social media are his immediate friends and family.

Scenario 1: John Doe makes a post online criticizing Joe Biden, saying he's a bad president and not fit to run the country.

Scenario 2: Joe Biden makes a post online criticizing John Doe, saying he's a loser and ignorant about politics.

Do you think that the latter, where a famous person with millions of followers, money, and political power, publicly picks on a nobody, is the same as the former? Doesn't the latter come off as bullying to a much greater extent due to the power imbalance?
 
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Ken-1122

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BLM isn't a racist movement, but otherwise you are correct.
Of course they are. There has been too many examples of racist activity within their events and in their organization to call it an equal opportunity movement. The problem with liberals is they like to pretend as if only white people can be racists so they look the other way, or even attempt to excuse it when other races exhibit such behavior. But this shouldn't be surprising; whenever an organization puts race on the forefront of everything, such an organization will always attract racists. If a white person started a group called "white and proud" would it surprise you if it attracts white racists? Why would it be such a surprise that such a thing would happen when black people start such an organization?
It's completely irrelevant to what we were just talking about, but you can, in fact, do that.
This conversation has been going on a lot longer than the (relatively) few exchanges I have thus far had with you.
 
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Ken-1122

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Oh, those poor, set-upon billionaires :rolleyes:

This seems to be our fundamental disconnect here, so let me try another example.

John Doe is a poor, conservative-leaning man who lives in a trailer park in Alabama. He's not famous or well-known, and his only followers on social media are his immediate friends and family.

Scenario 1: John Doe makes a post online criticizing Joe Biden, saying he's a bad president and not fit to run the country.

Scenario 2: Joe Biden makes a post online criticizing John Doe, saying he's a loser and ignorant about politics.

Do you think that the latter, where a famous person with millions of followers, money, and political power, publicly picks on a nobody, is the same as the former? Doesn't the latter come off as bullying to a much greater extent due to the power imbalance?
This is a completely different scenario than the one I responded to before. The first scenario was about whether a billionaire insulting a middle income to poor man is on the same MORAL level as a middle income to poor man insulting a billionaire. Now you are talking about the President of the USA criticizing vs a poor man criticizing, and your question has to do with bullying not morality Obviously my response will be different.
 
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Strathos

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This is a completely different scenario than the one I responded to before. The first scenario was about whether a billionaire insulting a middle income to poor man is on the same MORAL level as a middle income to poor man insulting a billionaire. Now you are talking about the President of the USA criticizing vs a poor man criticizing, and your question has to do with bullying not morality Obviously my response will be different.

It's exactly the same. The difference is the power imbalance. Hence the difference between punching up and punching down.
 
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Ken-1122

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It's exactly the same. The difference is the power imbalance. Hence the difference between punching up and punching down.
I disagree. The first scenario was billionaire vs middle income/lower income. Just because a person is a billionaire doesn’t mean he has more friends, or even power than a middle income or even poor person.

The second scenario, was about the President vs an average person. Now that is a power imbalance. The President has millions of fans, and supporters, such an elected official is given far more power than the average person.

As far as punching up or down, White people in America do not have more power than black people (a case can be made that the average white person actually has less than the average black person) so to suggest black people have to punch up to white people is an insult. I can’t really fault you for thinking this way because unfortunately there are plenty of loser black people who like to play the victim, and claim they are being oppressed, because being the victim gives you power and they like having that power; even if they have to play the victim to get it.
 
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Strathos

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I disagree. The first scenario was billionaire vs middle income/lower income. Just because a person is a billionaire doesn’t mean he has more friends, or even power than a middle income or even poor person.

I'm struggling to think of a case where a billionaire is less well-off in society than a poor or middle-class person. That's part of the reason I brought it up as an extreme example of imbalance.

The second scenario, was about the President vs an average person. Now that is a power imbalance. The President has millions of fans, and supporters, such an elected official is given far more power than the average person.

Hence, the president picking on an average guy is much less excusable than the other way around.

As far as punching up or down, White people in America do not have more power than black people (a case can be made that the average white person actually has less than the average black person)

This isn't true. Granted, it's far more subtle compared to the extreme examples brought up earlier, and in many cases a black person may be more well-off (for example, if you take my John Doe example and substitute Barack Obama for Joe Biden, and assume John Doe is white, nothing would change - he would still be punching up and Obama would be punching down).

But that only applies on an individual level, not a societal level. It's weather, not climate. With all other factors being equal, blacks, Hispanics, and most other minorities have it worse off in modern America than whites do.

This can be shown in many ways, such as traffic stop statistics, studies that show that job applicants with 'black' sounding names are less likely to be chosen than those with 'white' sounding names even with equal or better resumes, black students being held to different standards in schools, poverty statistics, etc.

A large majority of African Americans believe that there is institutional racism against them in the US.

By dismissing all of their experiences by calling them 'losers' who 'like to play the victim', you're the one being insulting.
 
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Ken-1122

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I'm struggling to think of a case where a billionaire is less well-off in society than a poor or middle-class person. That's part of the reason I brought it up as an extreme example of imbalance.
Consider the possibility of a middle income or poor person with a huge twitter following, Instagram, and lots of friends. Then consider the possibility of a billionaire who doesn't do twitter, Instagram, and doesn’t have a lot of friends. Who do you think has more influence?
This isn't true. Granted, it's far more subtle compared to the extreme examples brought up earlier, and in many cases a black person may be more well-off (for example, if you take my John Doe example and substitute Barack Obama for Joe Biden, and assume John Doe is white, nothing would change - he would still be punching up and Obama would be punching down).

But that only applies on an individual level, not a societal level. It's weather, not climate. With all other factors being equal, blacks, Hispanics, and most other minorities have it worse off in modern America than whites do.

This can be shown in many ways, such as traffic stop statistics, studies that show that job applicants with 'black' sounding names are less likely to be chosen than those with 'white' sounding names even with equal or better resumes, black students being held to different standards in schools, poverty statistics, etc.

A large majority of African Americans believe that there is institutional racism against them in the US.

By dismissing all of their experiences by calling them 'losers' who 'like to play the victim', you're the one being insulting.
I scanned over some of the links you provided, below are some of my observations

I noticed the link where you said “Job applicants with black sounding names are less likely to be chosen”, but when I read the link, it had nothing to do with having black sounding names, it was about black applicants feeling a need to “whiten up” their resume; nothing to do with names. And what are black sounding names anyway? Most of the black people I know have names like Greg, Joe, Robert, or Phil; and most of the white people I know have names like Greg, Joe, Robert, or Philip.

The link you listed about “black students held to a different standard in schools”, the link had nothing to do with blacks being held to a different standard, it just pointed out that blacks are suspended at a higher rate than white students, so it must be due to racism. The link didn’t point it out, but ya think the fact that boys (black or white) are suspended at a higher rate than girls, that this must be due to sexism?

The link where it says the majority of African Americans say there is institutional racism against them, the link only said African Americans say racism exist, it said nothing about institutional racism.

The link about poverty statics was basically pointing out that poor blacks are more likely to live in concentrated areas than poor whites. Yeah; poor blacks are more likely to live in Urban areas, and poor whites more likely to live in rural areas. But how is this racist? Sounds like a personal choice to me.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting racism doesn’t exist against black people, Of course it does; but it goes both ways; there are disadvantages of being white and advantages of being black as well. Suppose you were a black contractor just getting started, you could join the Black Contractors and owners and get business thrown your way, and help getting started; but if are a white contractor you’re on your own.
https://www.bcoechicago.org/membership

How about if you are black and want to start a business? Well the minority business agency, and black business professions has got your back if you are black, but not if you are white.
Minority Business Development Agency
Black Business and Professional Association | The premiere destination for Black Businesses and Professionals

They’ve got black lawyers
Black Lawyers Association of Cincinnati - BLAC is a bar association
black physicians,
Association of Black Women Physicians
and lots of other agencies designed to help black people in business. Not every city has one but many of them do.
 
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Strathos

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Consider the possibility of a middle income or poor person with a huge twitter following, Instagram, and lots of friends. Then consider the possibility of a billionaire who doesn't do twitter, Instagram, and doesn’t have a lot of friends. Who do you think has more influence?

The billionaire. Because they could use their money to buy more influence than the other person could possibly hope to attain. If they have less, it would only be because they choose to have less.

I scanned over some of the links you provided, below are some of my observations

I noticed the link where you said “Job applicants with black sounding names are less likely to be chosen”, but when I read the link, it had nothing to do with having black sounding names, it was about black applicants feeling a need to “whiten up” their resume; nothing to do with names. And what are black sounding names anyway? Most of the black people I know have names like Greg, Joe, Robert, or Phil; and most of the white people I know have names like Greg, Joe, Robert, or Philip.

Let me quote some relevant excerpts:

Asian applicants often changed foreign-sounding names to something American-sounding—like substituting “Luke” for “Lei”—and they also “Americanized” their interests by adding outdoorsy activities like hiking, snowboarding, and kayaking that are common in white western culture.

One Asian applicant said she put her “very Chinese-sounding” name on her resume in her freshman year, but only got noticed after subbing in her American nickname later: “Before I changed it, I didn’t really get any interviews, but after that I got interviews,” she said.

Here is another link with relevant quotes:

Employers' Replies to Racial Names

A job applicant with a name that sounds like it might belong to an African-American - say, Lakisha Washington or Jamal Jones - can find it harder to get a job. Despite laws against discrimination, affirmative action, a degree of employer enlightenment, and the desire by some businesses to enhance profits by hiring those most qualified regardless of race, African-Americans are twice as likely as whites to be unemployed and they earn nearly 25 percent less when they are employed.

Half of the applicants were assigned African-American names that are "remarkably common" in the black population, the other half white sounding names, such as Emily Walsh or Greg Baker.

The results indicate large racial differences in callback rates to a phone line with a voice mailbox attached and a message recorded by someone of the appropriate race and gender. Job applicants with white names needed to send about 10 resumes to get one callback; those with African-American names needed to send around 15 resumes to get one callback. This would suggest either employer prejudice or employer perception that race signals lower productivity.

The link you listed about “black students held to a different standard in schools”, the link had nothing to do with blacks being held to a different standard, it just pointed out that blacks are suspended at a higher rate than white students, so it must be due to racism. The link didn’t point it out, but ya think the fact that boys (black or white) are suspended at a higher rate than girls, that this must be due to sexism?

If blacks are consistently suspended at a higher rate, how is that not racism?

From the article:

There are big racial differences in how school discipline is meted out: students of color are much more likely to be suspended or expelled that white students, even when the infractions are the same.

It goes on to say:

But an interesting study released in February suggests a contributing factor. A team of Harvard researchers found that black boys faced harsher punishment because they're often perceived as older than they actually are.

"The study also involved 264 mostly white, female undergraduate students from large public U.S. universities. In one experiment, students rated the innocence of people ranging from infants to 25-year-olds who were black, white or an unidentified race. The students judged children up to 9 years old as equally innocent regardless of race, but considered black children significantly less innocent than other children in every age group beginning at age 10, the researchers found."

"The students were also shown photographs alongside descriptions of various crimes and asked to assess the age and innocence of white, black or Latino boys ages 10 to 17. The students overestimated the age of blacks by an average of 4.5 years and found them more culpable than whites or Latinos, particularly when the boys were matched with serious crimes, the study found. Researchers used questionnaires to assess the participants' prejudice and dehumanization of blacks. They found that participants who implicitly associated blacks with apes thought the black children were older and less innocent."

The link where it says the majority of African Americans say there is institutional racism against them, the link only said African Americans say racism exist, it said nothing about institutional racism.

If by 'racism exists' you mean 'some individuals are prejudiced against others because of race', then I don't think there's a person on earth who denies that.

The specific issues being asked about were ones such as:

- Race relations in the US are generally bad
- The legacy of slavery affects the position of black people in American society today a great deal/fair amount
- Our country hasn't gone far enough in giving blacks equal rights with whites

This is all about institutional racism.

The link about poverty statics was basically pointing out that poor blacks are more likely to live in concentrated areas than poor whites. Yeah; poor blacks are more likely to live in Urban areas, and poor whites more likely to live in rural areas. But how is this racist? Sounds like a personal choice to me.

It was that they were concentrated in areas with high overall poverty. Ghettos.

It captures how we've designed communities to pen poverty in, restricting many poor African Americans in particular to a limited number of neighborhoods.


"The term ‘concentration’ does in some way suggest that poor people are moving from all over the place into these neighborhoods, and they become teeming slums like at the turn of the century," Jargowsky says. "But it’s actually the opposite: People are moving out to the older suburbs, and people in the older suburbs are moving to the newer suburbs."

Concentrated poverty is getting worse because poor people — especially poor African Americans — are increasingly left behind. And a number of forces drive this pattern, including systemic discrimination, policies that have historically concentrated public housing and modern zoning laws that keep the poor out of wealthier communities.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting racism doesn’t exist against black people, Of course it does; but it goes both ways; there are disadvantages of being white and advantages of being black as well. Suppose you were a black contractor just getting started, you could join the Black Contractors and owners and get business thrown your way, and help getting started; but if are a white contractor you’re on your own.
https://www.bcoechicago.org/membership

How about if you are black and want to start a business? Well the minority business agency, and black business professions has got your back if you are black, but not if you are white.
Minority Business Development Agency
Black Business and Professional Association | The premiere destination for Black Businesses and Professionals

They’ve got black lawyers
Black Lawyers Association of Cincinnati - BLAC is a bar association
black physicians,
Association of Black Women Physicians
and lots of other agencies designed to help black people in business. Not every city has one but many of them do.

Those organizations are created to attempt to counter the inherent disadvantages blacks have in American society. Saying they're an advantage is like saying that a person with a prosthetic arm has an advantage over someone with two healthy arms. Sure, the latter can't get a prosthetic, but they don't need one.
 
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Ken-1122

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The billionaire. Because they could use their money to buy more influence than the other person could possibly hope to attain. If they have less, it would only be because they choose to have less.
Buy friends and buy twitter followers? Rather than choosing to have less, perhaps the billionaire just doesn’t choose to have more.
Let me quote some relevant excerpts:
We’re not talking about Asians, we’re talking about Black people
Here is another link with relevant quotes:

Employers' Replies to Racial Names
I noticed they didn't mention examples of black sounding names, but the did mention “white sounding” names and they gave examples like Emily Walsh, and Greg Baker. Though I don't know anyone with the last name of Walsh, I do know a black woman named Emily, a black man named Greg, and a black person with the sat name of Baker; hardly white sounding names.
They should have compared names like Blyjoski, Burgdorf, Chapochnikov, (I know white people with those names) to names like Williams, Thompson, or Baker; (I know black people with those names) they should compare foreign sounding names vs American names, because due to slavery, most native blacks have American sounding names, but many whites do not.



If blacks are consistently suspended at a higher rate, how is that not racism?
The same way boys suspended at a higher rate is not an example of sexism.
The specific issues being asked about were ones such as:

- Race relations in the US are generally bad
I disagree; I think considering the circumstances, race relations are pretty good.
- The legacy of slavery affects the position of black people in American society today a great deal/fair amount
Slavery??? How?
- Our country hasn't gone far enough in giving blacks equal rights with whites
What rights do whites have that blacks do not?
This is all about institutional racism.
In order for institutional racism to exist, the institution itself has to be racist, not just the individuals working within the institution. Take a Police department as an example of the institution. In order for there to be institutional racism, the institution of law enforcement itself, or that specific jurisdiction must be created in such a manner that the institution will remain racist no matter the person(s) holding positions within it.
In short -- If you are given free reign to remove all officers within that jurisdiction, and replace them with a new group of people, hand chosen by you; would said racism remain?
If removing / replacing the variables from the system, in this case the officers, would cleanse the system of racism, then institutional racism does not exist. However, if you remove / replace all variables within the system with new variables known to be non-corrupt from the systems intention (in this case if you replace all cops with people known to not be racist), yet the system remains corrupt (racist here), then institutional racism exists

An example of Institutional racism would be Jim Crow laws because under those laws black people were required to sit in the back of the bus, enter business through the back door, or use separate restroom facilities regardless of how non corrupt those working the system were.

Can you give an example of institutional racism today?
It was that they were concentrated in areas with high overall poverty. Ghettos.
What’s stopping them from moving to trailer parks?
Those organizations are created to attempt to counter the inherent disadvantages blacks have in American society. Saying they're an advantage is like saying that a person with a prosthetic arm has an advantage over someone with two healthy arms. Sure, the latter can't get a prosthetic, but they don't need one.
Black people are not like a prosthetic arm, we don’t need those things to succeed. If Immigrant Nigerians can get off the boat and not only outperform black people, but out perform white people as well, than so can we if we had the desire to do so.
 
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Aldebaran

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The billionaire. Because they could use their money to buy more influence than the other person could possibly hope to attain. If they have less, it would only be because they choose to have less.

Trump is a billionaire, and he's not allowed to even have a Twitter or Facebook account, even though I can, and I'm not a billionaire.
 
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Strathos

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Trump is a billionaire

Or so he claims

and he's not allowed to even have a Twitter or Facebook account, even though I can, and I'm not a billionaire.

Because he abused the terms of service and was banned from those sites. Not that that did anything to diminish his influence. Who do you think has more influence overall, you or him? If you were to ask 1000 random people off the street, who do you think more of them would have heard of, him or you? Pretty bad example there.

Buy friends and buy twitter followers? Rather than choosing to have less, perhaps the billionaire just doesn’t choose to have more.

What does that even mean? You're just playing word games now.

We’re not talking about Asians, we’re talking about Black people

The point is that the phenomena exists. Do you think it only happens to Asians and never Blacks? I gave more links with examples of black name discrimination later in the post too.

I noticed they didn't mention examples of black sounding names, but the did mention “white sounding” names and they gave examples like Emily Walsh, and Greg Baker. Though I don't know anyone with the last name of Walsh, I do know a black woman named Emily, a black man named Greg, and a black person with the sat name of Baker; hardly white sounding names.

They did give examples. They were right there in the parts I directly quoted.

A job applicant with a name that sounds like it might belong to an African-American - say, Lakisha Washington or Jamal Jones

Emphasis mine.

They should have compared names like Blyjoski, Burgdorf, Chapochnikov, (I know white people with those names) to names like Williams, Thompson, or Baker; (I know black people with those names) they should compare foreign sounding names vs American names, because due to slavery, most native blacks have American sounding names, but many whites do not.

Perhaps there have been studies done on that too, or there could be, but that's beside the point. The data shows that job applicants with names that are more traditionally associate with African-Americans are treated unfavorably.

The same way boys suspended at a higher rate is not an example of sexism.

Then what is your argument? Are you trying to say that blacks are genetically predisposed to behave worse?

I disagree; I think considering the circumstances, race relations are pretty good.

That's fine. The majority of those polled disagree. You tried to say that the poll questions were not about institutional racism, I was pointing out otherwise.

Slavery??? How?

Again we're just talking about what the results of the poll are. But if you want to go into details, here's some.

A social scientist of any sophistication recognizes that societies are not amalgams of unrelated individuals creating themselves anew–out of whole cloth, as it were–in each generation. A complex web of social connections and a long train of historical influences interact to form the opportunities and shape the outlooks of individuals. Of course, individual effort is important, as is native talent and sheer luck, for determining how well or poorly a person does in life. But social background, cultural affinities, and communal influence are also of great significance. This is the grain of truth in the conservatives’ insistence that cultural differences lie at the root of racial inequality in America. But the deeper truth is that, for some three centuries now, the communal experience of the slaves and their descendants has been shaped by political, social, and economic institutions that, by any measure, must be seen as oppressive. When we look at “underclass culture” in the American cities of today we are seeing a product of that oppressive history. It is morally obtuse and scientifically naive to say, in the face of the despair, violence, and self-destructive folly of these people, that “if they would get their acts together, like the poor Asian immigrants, then we would not have such a horrific problem in our cities.”

The only decent response in the face of the “pathological” behavior of American history’s losers is to conclude that, while we cannot change our ignoble past, we must not be indifferent to the contemporary suffering that is linked to that past. The self-limiting patterns of behavior among poor blacks “which some commentators are so quick to trot out” are a product, not of some alien cultural imposition upon a pristine Euro-American canvas, but, rather, of social, economic, and political practices deeply rooted in American history. We should not ignore the behavioral problems of the underclass, but we should discuss and react to them as if we were talking about our own children, neighbors, and friends. This is an American tragedy, to which we should respond as we might to an epidemic of teen suicide, adolescent drunken driving, or HIV infection among homosexual males–that is, by embracing, not demonizing, the victims.

How the legacy of slavery affects the mental health of black Americans today


What rights do whites have that blacks do not?

Once again, these are just the subjects of the poll in question. My point was not to prove that they are true, but that the majority of those polled believed them to be true.

But as for your question, you won't find a law that explicitly says 'white people can do X and black people can't', but rather you'll find many laws and informal policies that disproportionately favor white people over black people.

Systematic Inequality - Center for American Progress

Several key factors exacerbate this vicious cycle of wealth inequality. Black households, for example, have far less access to tax-advantaged forms of savings, due in part to a long history of employment discrimination and other discriminatory practices. A well-documented history of mortgage market discrimination means that blacks are significantly less likely to be homeowners than whites,3 which means they have less access to the savings and tax benefits that come with owning a home. Persistent labor market discrimination and segregation also force blacks into fewer and less advantageous employment opportunities than their white counterparts.4 Thus, African Americans have less access to stable jobs, good wages, and retirement benefits at work5— all key drivers by which American families gain access to savings. Moreover, under the current tax code, families with higher incomes receive increased tax incentives associated with both housing and retirement savings.6 Because African Americans tend to have lower incomes, they inevitably receive fewer tax benefits—even if they are homeowners or have retirement savings accounts. The bottom line is that persistent housing and labor market discrimination and segregation worsen the damaging cycle of wealth inequality.

In order for institutional racism to exist, the institution itself has to be racist, not just the individuals working within the institution. Take a Police department as an example of the institution. In order for there to be institutional racism, the institution of law enforcement itself, or that specific jurisdiction must be created in such a manner that the institution will remain racist no matter the person(s) holding positions within it.
In short -- If you are given free reign to remove all officers within that jurisdiction, and replace them with a new group of people, hand chosen by you; would said racism remain?
If removing / replacing the variables from the system, in this case the officers, would cleanse the system of racism, then institutional racism does not exist. However, if you remove / replace all variables within the system with new variables known to be non-corrupt from the systems intention (in this case if you replace all cops with people known to not be racist), yet the system remains corrupt (racist here), then institutional racism exists

I disagree with that definition of institutional racism. It's as much a cultural thing as anything else. If every law says to treat groups X and Y equally, but group X is the majority, they have most of the wealth, power, and influence, and prejudice and negative stereotypes about group Y are common, then group Y is going to be worse off in that kind of society.

What’s stopping them from moving to trailer parks?

Poor people can't move out of the ghetto because it takes a significant amount of money to relocate. They already spent all of their money on other bills. They cannot save any money to move. They can't just go and get a different job. To do that would mean taking time to search for a job. Much of their time is already used up somehow. Poor people spend more money buying the same things that wealthy people buy.

Let's say you buy a car, how do you do that? You go to the bank and get a loan preapproved and then you go down to the car lot and choose your car. They try to get you to choose something outside your price range but you hold to what you can afford. You pay for the car with the loan from your bank with a reasonable interest rate.

The poor person goes to the car lot and gets turned down as soon as they check his credit. He just wasted an entire day at a car lot with an aggressive salesman. So next weekend he goes to the place that swears they will finance anyone. He gets conned into buying the same car you bought, but he gets an enormous interest rate and after five years (if he makes it that long without getting it repossessed) he will have paid three times the money you paid.

When you need toilet paper or soap or toothpaste or dishwasher detergent, you might go to Costco and buy it in bulk. The poor person can't afford to spend $15 on toilet paper, that would cut into the electricity bill this month. So he buys it at Walmart for $3. Never mind the fact that you got 36 rolls and he got 4, he had zero at home and needed it now. He has to go with what he can get.

At the store you might use your debit card, the poor guy has no bank account because he is poor. He has no debit card. Try to go all cash for a couple months to see what it's like. You will notice that some things just aren't the same. Your paycheck now costs you money just to get your money. Some places won't accept cash payments. They will not allow you to use cash to pay bills that if you don't pay they will charge you late fees on. So you have to pay for a money order and stamps to mail it to them because you can't do a money transfer from your account.

Most poor people have children who they are responsible for. They can't afford daycare without a job. But with the job they lose their welfare check. They end up getting less money with a job and daycare payments than if they had no job. And never mind the fact that the daycare won't accept their kids if they haven't held a job continuously for a while already.

So the guy who just doesn't want to work yet can who has no children or other bills can probably do something for himself. But wait, maybe he can't either. He isn't getting welfare. He gets nothing in the way of government support. He might be getting EBT food but that's it. He can't even afford to ride the bus to an area where he can apply for a job. You might ask why he doesn't work from home. How would he do that without a computer?

Black people are not like a prosthetic arm

Not at all what I said. I said affirmative action was like a prosthetic arm.

we don’t need those things to succeed. If Immigrant Nigerians can get off the boat and not only outperform black people, but out perform white people as well, than so can we if we had the desire to do so.

They don't suffer the lingering consequences of hundreds of years of racial oppression like African Americans do.
 
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Ken-1122

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What does that even mean? You're just playing word games now.
No; I’m pointing out just because a person is worth a lot doesn’t mean they have the influence of someone worth a lot less
The point is that the phenomena exists. Do you think it only happens to Asians and never Blacks? I gave more links with examples of black name discrimination later in the post too.
And I responded with examples of white name discrimination. It’s more about unusual names, vs common names than anything else.
Perhaps there have been studies done on that too, or there could be, but that's beside the point. The data shows that job applicants with names that are more traditionally associate with African-Americans are treated unfavorably.
The fact that they would list names most commonly used for white people, but not use names most commonly used for black people IMO shows the data is biased.
Then what is your argument? Are you trying to say that blacks are genetically predisposed to behave worse?
According to the FBI Crime statics, black people commit 52% of all murders, and 56% of all robberies in this country even though they make up only 12% of the population.

Table 43
That's fine. The majority of those polled disagree. You tried to say that the poll questions were not about institutional racism, I was pointing out otherwise.
If institutional racism is such a big deal, provide an example of it being applied today
Again we're just talking about what the results of the poll are. But if you want to go into details, here's some.
So a sociologist makes the claim that the US history of slavery and racism is keeping black people back today. That’s his opinion, it doesn’t make it true. What happened to my ancestors has no effect on what I do today, unless I allow it to; if I do it’s my fault.
Once again, these are just the subjects of the poll in question. My point was not to prove that they are true, but that the majority of those polled believed them to be true.
Just because someone believe something to be true doesn’t mean it is
But as for your question, you won't find a law that explicitly says 'white people can do X and black people can't', but rather you'll find many laws and informal policies that disproportionately favor white people over black people.
Which policies favor whites over blacks?
I disagree with that definition of institutional racism. It's as much a cultural thing as anything else. If every law says to treat groups X and Y equally, but group X is the majority, they have most of the wealth, power, and influence, and prejudice and negative stereotypes about group Y are common, then group Y is going to be worse off in that kind of society.
True! But neither group X or Y are institutions, they are individual people acting on their own; never as one.
Poor people can't move out of the ghetto because it takes a significant amount of money to relocate. They already spent all of their money on other bills. They cannot save any money to move. They can't just go and get a different job.
A disproportionate number of poor people don’t work anyway so they have all day to look for a trailer park, they usually get their rent money subsidized buy the Government (section 8 etc) and they can take their government rent money anywhere they want. They aren’t being forced to live there.
Not at all what I said. I said affirmative action was like a prosthetic arm.
Those examples I gave was not Affirmative action. BTW white women benefit from Affirmative action than anybody else
They don't suffer the lingering consequences of hundreds of years of racial oppression like African Americans do.
Accomplishments are made on an individual level; not as a collective. Individual black people should not allow the atrocities of their ancestors to ruin their lives today. And black people from Africa have it worse off than black people in america, so to suggest we suffer from oppression but they do not is absurd
 
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Strathos

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No; I’m pointing out just because a person is worth a lot doesn’t mean they have the influence of someone worth a lot less

Only if they choose not to. They easily could.

And I responded with examples of white name discrimination. It’s more about unusual names, vs common names than anything else.

You did? I must have missed that. I don't see any citations of studies in your posts.

The fact that they would list names most commonly used for white people, but not use names most commonly used for black people IMO shows the data is biased.

I don't see how they did any such thing.

According to the FBI Crime statics, black people commit 52% of all murders, and 56% of all robberies in this country even though they make up only 12% of the population.

Table 43

That doesn't answer my question. To what do you attribute this phenomenon? Racists attribute it to blacks being 'genetically inferior'. I attribute it to socioeconomic conditions.

If institutional racism is such a big deal, provide an example of it being applied today

You're changing the subject. Here is how the thread played out:

Me: The majority of African-Americans polled say institutional racism exists *posts link*
You: Those questions are about individual racism, not institutional racism
Me: No, they're about institutional racism *quotes questions to show that*
You: Well I disagree with them
Me: That's not the point. The point is that a large majority of people believe this to be a problem.

Providing examples is a different part of the argument, which should be addressed in a different part of the post you quoted.

So a sociologist makes the claim that the US history of slavery and racism is keeping black people back today. That’s his opinion, it doesn’t make it true. What happened to my ancestors has no effect on what I do today, unless I allow it to; if I do it’s my fault.

Did you even read the link?

A social scientist of any sophistication recognizes that societies are not amalgams of unrelated individuals creating themselves anew–out of whole cloth, as it were–in each generation. A complex web of social connections and a long train of historical influences interact to form the opportunities and shape the outlooks of individuals. Of course, individual effort is important, as is native talent and sheer luck, for determining how well or poorly a person does in life. But social background, cultural affinities, and communal influence are also of great significance.

To use another extreme example, let's say that person A was born to two homeless people in a junkyard, and person B was born to two billionaires in a mansion. Do you think they have equal chances of success in life?

Just because someone believe something to be true doesn’t mean it is

Of course, but the topic of discussion was whether it was believed to be true by a majority of African Americans. You were trying to argue that since you had never personally experienced racism that it didn't exist and wasn't an issue. I was showing that your view was in the minority.

Which policies favor whites over blacks?

Hiring policies, as shown by the studies I linked, as well as police stop and frisk policies, which is another thing I already provided a link for. Here it is again.

Please keep in mind that by "policies", I don't mean explicitly written laws, but statistical trends that show that such things are widespread.

True! But neither group X or Y are institutions, they are individual people acting on their own; never as one.

This is where we disagree. Widespread prejudice and those who want to keep a status quo are an institution.

A disproportionate number of poor people don’t work anyway

Only because jobs are not available to them.

so they have all day to look for a trailer park

How? By walking until they find one? Why are you assuming they would have cars and gas money if they have no jobs?

they usually get their rent money subsidized buy the Government (section 8 etc) and they can take their government rent money anywhere they want. They aren’t being forced to live there.

Most of them can barely get enough money to keep themselves fed and pay their bills. It seems to me that you have obviously never been in such economic conditions.

Those examples I gave was not Affirmative action. BTW white women benefit from Affirmative action than anybody else

I'm talking about "affirmative action" in an abstract. Surely you know about the equality vs. equity paradox.

Accomplishments are made on an individual level; not as a collective. Individual black people should not allow the atrocities of their ancestors to ruin their lives today.

They certainly set a lot of constraints on what you are likely to accomplish.

If every single newborn baby was taken to a government-run facility and raised by the same people, taught the same things, and provided with the exact same resources and opportunities regardless of who their parents were, then you would be correct. But real life doesn't work like that, and I doubt many people would want it to.

And black people from Africa have it worse off than black people in america, so to suggest we suffer from oppression but they do not is absurd

The point is that stigma doesn't carry over. If they're already well-off enough to immigrant to a different continent, then they obviously had a lot more going for them than the majority of their countrymen who couldn't afford to do so.
 
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TLK Valentine

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At least "All Lives Matter" is inclusive and does not discriminate by placing the skin color of any person above the importance of another.

It's only inclusive if it's sincere.
 
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Ken-1122

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Only if they choose not to. They easily could.
Not true. You have a CEO who is all about business and has no fan club or twitter followers, vs a Rapper, or singer with a huge fan club and twitter following, how does the CEO buy more publicity?
You did? I must have missed that. I don't see any citations of studies in your posts.

I don't see how they did any such thing.
My point is; due to slavery, most black people have names that are the same as white people names.
That doesn't answer my question. To what do you attribute this phenomenon? Racists attribute it to blacks being 'genetically inferior'. I attribute it to socioeconomic conditions.
I attribute it to a culture that too many black people adopt
You're changing the subject. Here is how the thread played out:

Me: The majority of African-Americans polled say institutional racism exists *posts link*
You: Those questions are about individual racism, not institutional racism
Me: No, they're about institutional racism *quotes questions to show that*
You: Well I disagree with them
Me: That's not the point. The point is that a large majority of people believe this to be a problem.

Providing examples is a different part of the argument, which should be addressed in a different part of the post you quoted.
I have no doubt most black people believe Institutional racism exist. I was just pointing out why I believe the majority of black people are wrong concerning this issue.
To use another extreme example, let's say that person A was born to two homeless people in a junkyard, and person B was born to two billionaires in a mansion. Do you think they have equal chances of success in life?
Obviously to be born rich gives many advantages than being born poor does not
Hiring policies, as shown by the studies I linked, as well as police stop and frisk policies, which is another thing I already provided a link for. Here it is again.
Don’t get me wrong, I do understand in high crime violent neighborhoods, the police do treat the citizens of that neighborhood different than they do low crime safe neighborhoods. I’ve personally been a victim of police harassment, but this has only happened when in high crime black neighborhoods, and usually the cop doing the harassing is black; so this tells me race isn't the issue but something else. BTW I’ve never been harassed in low crime safe neighborhoods.
Please keep in mind that by "policies", I don't mean explicitly written laws, but statistical trends that show that such things are widespread.
No; I’m not talking about statistical trends; I’m talking about explicitly written laws. Statistical trends show racism; which of course exist, written laws show institutional racism; which is where our disagreement lies.
This is where we disagree. Widespread prejudice and those who want to keep a status quo are an institution.
I disagree. An institution is a group of people all working for the same goal. Bigots vary in degree of bigotry, they differ on the exact route of imposing their bigotry, they have too many differences to be considered an institution
How? By walking until they find one? Why are you assuming they would have cars and gas money if they have no jobs?
All the people I know living below the poverty level have cars,
Most of them can barely get enough money to keep themselves fed and pay their bills. It seems to me that you have obviously never been in such economic conditions.
How does this force them into the projects and away from the trailer parks?
They certainly set a lot of constraints on what you are likely to accomplish.

If every single newborn baby was taken to a government-run facility and raised by the same people, taught the same things, and provided with the exact same resources and opportunities regardless of who their parents were, then you would be correct. But real life doesn't work like that, and I doubt many people would want it to.
Or if African Americans adopted a culture similar to Nigerian Culture, we would likely be on the same economical level as they are, and white people would be trying to keep us with us and the Asians.
 
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Strathos

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Not true. You have a CEO who is all about business and has no fan club or twitter followers, vs a Rapper, or singer with a huge fan club and twitter following, how does the CEO buy more publicity?

If a rapper or singer is at all popular and well-known, they will be fairly rich, having made money from their music.

If you're taking about cases where someone with a net worth of 1 billion dollars might have less influence than someone with a net worth of 900 million dollars, obviously that's missing the point.

My point is; due to slavery, most black people have names that are the same as white people names.

There are many names in America that are considered to be stereotypically "black" or "white".

Some examples:

Top 20 'Whitest' and 'Blackest' Names

Studies show that the latter are much more likely to get callbacks after submitting resumes.

I attribute it to a culture that too many black people adopt

What does that even mean? High crime areas are not the fault of all of the individuals living there, they are the fault of the system that has concentrated all of these poor people into a ghetto. Many people have no choice but to join gangs and commit crimes in order for their families to even survive. The answer is proper funding, education, and social programs to change the environment.

I have no doubt most black people believe Institutional racism exist. I was just pointing out why I believe the majority of black people are wrong concerning this issue.

I already know you do. But you seem to have a different definition of 'institutional' than most people.

Obviously to be born rich gives many advantages than being born poor does not

Yes, and in America, white people are more likely to be born rich and black people are more likely to be born poor. That's institutional racism.

Don’t get me wrong, I do understand in high crime violent neighborhoods, the police do treat the citizens of that neighborhood different than they do low crime safe neighborhoods. I’ve personally been a victim of police harassment, but this has only happened when in high crime black neighborhoods, and usually the cop doing the harassing is black; so this tells me race isn't the issue but something else. BTW I’ve never been harassed in low crime safe neighborhoods.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't change the fact that statistics show significant racial disparities in police stops and arrests, for the same crimes, in the same neighborhoods.

No; I’m not talking about statistical trends; I’m talking about explicitly written laws. Statistical trends show racism; which of course exist, written laws show institutional racism; which is where our disagreement lies.

Again, you won't find written laws explicitly discriminating by race. They're more subtle than that.

For example, a racist in power knows they won't get away with trying to pass a law that says 'black people aren't allowed to vote'. So instead they'll do research, and find out that, for example, a majority of black people and other minorities take advantage of early voting, so they'll pass laws restricting that. Or if they see that a majority of universities in a state are minorities, they will make it so a student ID from those universities will not qualify someone to vote, but a handgun license will (because over 80% of handgun sales in the state go to white people).

The New Voter Suppression

It's no coincidence that so many of these laws disproportionately affect minorities.

I disagree. An institution is a group of people all working for the same goal. Bigots vary in degree of bigotry, they differ on the exact route of imposing their bigotry, they have too many differences to be considered an institution

No one is suggesting a vast illuminati-like conspiracy where every single person involved is working together in perfect harmony to oppress minorities. Most people involved may not even realize that they are part of an oppressive system, or supporting it. What matters is the demonstrated negative effects it has on minorities, and how we can fix that.

All the people I know living below the poverty level have cars,

Yet more anecdotal evidence.

Racial Inequalities in Homelessness, by the Numbers - National Alliance to End Homelessness

How does this force them into the projects and away from the trailer parks?

Because that's where they were born, and they can't afford to move anywhere else. This isn't that complicated.

Or if African Americans adopted a culture similar to Nigerian Culture, we would likely be on the same economical level as they are, and white people would be trying to keep us with us and the Asians.

This is victim blaming. Poor people don't choose to be poor, and minorities don't choose to be discriminated against.
 
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Ken-1122

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If a rapper or singer is at all popular and well-known, they will be fairly rich, having made money from their music.
New Edition was #1 on the charts and still didn’t make enough money to move out from their parents home; they were well known for quite a while before the money eventually began pouring in. Don’t assume just because entertainers are popular, that they are making a lot of money.
There are many names in America that are considered to be stereotypically "black" or "white".

Some examples:

Top 20 'Whitest' and 'Blackest' Names

Studies show that the latter are much more likely to get callbacks after submitting resumes.
I doubt most people know of that list. I know black and white people whose names are on both lists.
What does that even mean? High crime areas are not the fault of all of the individuals living there, they are the fault of the system that has concentrated all of these poor people into a ghetto.
There is no system that concentrates black people in a ghetto. Even poor people have a choice of where they get to live.

*I’m talking about a culture that vilifies black kids who get good grades in school as acting white; Obama even mentioned this in his DNC speech.
*I’m talking about a culture that says no snitchin’ to the cops when you see a crime taking place.
*Charles Barkley made a commercial saying Athletes are not role models, Parents are role models. He said he got a lot of hatred for saying parents are role models. He also said when he gives speeches at high schools, he asked how many students want to be professional athletes. He said at white schools maybe 10% of the students raise their hands, most want to be doctors, lawyers, business owners, etc. but at black schools 95% of the kids raise their hands.
This is a cultural problem that needs to be fixed in the home
I already know you do. But you seem to have a different definition of 'institutional' than most people.
I go by the dictionary definition. If it isn’t about a racist institution, don’t call it institutional racism!
Definition of institution | Dictionary.com
Yes, and in America, white people are more likely to be born rich and black people are more likely to be born poor. That's institutional racism.
In America, Asians are more likely to be born rich and white people are more likely to be born poor. Is that Institutional racism against whites??? Ridicules.
Anecdotal evidence doesn't change the fact that statistics show significant racial disparities in police stops and arrests, for the same crimes, in the same neighborhoods.
Those statistics compare high crime poor black neighborhoods to lower crime middle income white neighborhoods. What happens when they compare lower crime middle income black neighborhoods to lower crime middle income white neighborhoods?
Again, you won't find written laws explicitly discriminating by race. They're more subtle than that.

For example, a racist in power knows they won't get away with trying to pass a law that says 'black people aren't allowed to vote'. So instead they'll do research, and find out that, for example, a majority of black people and other minorities take advantage of early voting, so they'll pass laws restricting that.
I’m talking about black people; not other minorities. Which State has more black early voters than white?
Or if they see that a majority of universities in a state are minorities, they will make it so a student ID from those universities will not qualify someone to vote, but a handgun license will (because over 80% of handgun sales in the state go to white people).
Which state has more black college students than white?
We’re not talking about homelessness; we’re talking about those who choose to live in the Ghetto vs trailer park
Because that's where they were born, and they can't afford to move anywhere else. This isn't that complicated.
Most who live in the Ghetto are renters; and renters rarely live in one home their entire lives; they move from time to time. What’s stopping them from moving to a trailer park?
This is victim blaming. Poor people don't choose to be poor, and minorities don't choose to be discriminated against.
But a lot of their behaviors keep them poor.
 
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Strathos

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New Edition was #1 on the charts and still didn’t make enough money to move out from their parents home; they were well known for quite a while before the money eventually began pouring in. Don’t assume just because entertainers are popular, that they are making a lot of money.

No idea who that is or what you're talking about. Links would help.

I doubt most people know of that list. I know black and white people whose names are on both lists.

We're not talking about some esoteric 'list' that someone randomly assembled. There are names that are much more common among different racial groups in America, and this is well-known in popular culture. Yes, of course there's overlap, but there are clear trends, and statistics to back this up.

Top Baby Names | OASIS (Online Analytical Statistical Information System) | Georgia Department of Public Health

This has also become a stereotype in modern culture. If someone hears a name like 'Tyrone', 'Jamal', or 'Lakisha', then chances are their subconscious is going to immediately assume said person is black, and a lot of the time they would be right.

There is no system that concentrates black people in a ghetto. Even poor people have a choice of where they get to live.

In the vast majority of cases, that is not true.

Why the Poor Cannot Move: It's Not Just the (Official) Rent

Trailer parks aren't some kind of miracle solution either:

Trailers as affordable housing: solution or bane to the poor?

*I’m talking about a culture that vilifies black kids who get good grades in school as acting white; Obama even mentioned this in his DNC speech.
*I’m talking about a culture that says no snitchin’ to the cops when you see a crime taking place.
*Charles Barkley made a commercial saying Athletes are not role models, Parents are role models. He said he got a lot of hatred for saying parents are role models. He also said when he gives speeches at high schools, he asked how many students want to be professional athletes. He said at white schools maybe 10% of the students raise their hands, most want to be doctors, lawyers, business owners, etc. but at black schools 95% of the kids raise their hands.
This is a cultural problem that needs to be fixed in the home

Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that interactions between African Americans with police have a very high tendency to be negative, and structural racism leads to there being many fewer prominent African American role models outside of sports.

I go by the dictionary definition. If it isn’t about a racist institution, don’t call it institutional racism!
Definition of institution | Dictionary.com

From your own link:

4. Sociology. a well-established and structured pattern of behavior or of relationships that is accepted as a fundamental part of a culture, as marriage: the institution of the family.

In America, Asians are more likely to be born rich and white people are more likely to be born poor. Is that Institutional racism against whites??? Ridicules.

Asians aren't suffering from the residual effects of centuries of slavery. But even Asians have an overall higher poverty rate than whites in America, because there are very many poor Asian immigrants. In fact, Asians have the highest wealth inequality within a racial demographic in America.

New Insights Into the Poverty and Affluence Gap Among Major Racial and Ethnic Groups

How ‘Crazy Rich’ Asians Have Led to the Largest Income Gap in the U.S.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rican-advantage-that-is-actually-an-illusion/

Those statistics compare high crime poor black neighborhoods to lower crime middle income white neighborhoods. What happens when they compare lower crime middle income black neighborhoods to lower crime middle income white neighborhoods?

The studies I'm talking about were comparing police stops in the same neighborhoods.

Police stops are still marred by racial discrimination, new data shows.

I’m talking about black people; not other minorities. Which State has more black early voters than white?

Which state has more black college students than white?

The specific references were to North Carolina and Texas. You would know that if you read the link I posted.

Likewise, Texas permits voters to use a handgun license to vote, but not a student ID from a state university. More than 80 percent of handgun licenses issued to Texans in 2018 went to white Texans, while more than half of the students in the University of Texas system are racial or ethnic minorities.

Strict voter ID is just one of a number of racially charged voting restrictions that states have adopted this decade. For example, following the election and reelection of President Obama — and the concomitant surge in turnout by Black voters — states like North Carolina imposed new restrictions on early voting, which was disproportionately used by people of color.

We’re not talking about homelessness; we’re talking about those who choose to live in the Ghetto vs trailer park

Actually, we were talking about homeless people owning cars.

Most who live in the Ghetto are renters; and renters rarely live in one home their entire lives; they move from time to time. What’s stopping them from moving to a trailer park?

They don't have the time, money, or transportation. Do you really think that poor people choose to live in ghettos out of their own free will?

The Barriers Stopping Poor People From Moving to Better Jobs

But a lot of their behaviors keep them poor.

There are many rich people (such as a former ex-president) who have shown themselves to be utterly incompetent with finances and have had so many bankruptcies failed business dealings that they would never have succeeded if they had not been born with silver spoons their mouths.

There are many more hard-working poor people who will never even reach middle class, no matter how hard they work or what they do, because they were born into poverty and there is a system that takes advantage of and exploits them.
 
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Ken-1122

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No idea who that is or what you're talking about. Links would help.
The point is; just because a lot of people know who you are doesn’t mean you’re making money
We're not talking about some esoteric 'list' that someone randomly assembled. There are names that are much more common among different racial groups in America, and this is well-known in popular culture. Yes, of course there's overlap, but there are clear trends, and statistics to back this up.

Top Baby Names | OASIS (Online Analytical Statistical Information System) | Georgia Department of Public Health

This has also become a stereotype in modern culture. If someone hears a name like 'Tyrone', 'Jamal', or 'Lakisha', then chances are their subconscious is going to immediately assume said person is black, and a lot of the time they would be right.
Still; most black people have names that are indistinguishable from names white people have. I’ve never heard of an actual person named Lakisha for example
In the vast majority of cases, that is not true.

Why the Poor Cannot Move: It's Not Just the (Official) Rent
That’s about why the poor can’t move to the middle class neighborhoods; not why blacks can’t move to trailer parks
Trailer parks aren't some kind of miracle solution either:

Trailers as affordable housing: solution or bane to the poor?
If trailer parks aren’t the miracle solution; what’s your point?
Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that interactions between African Americans with police have a very high tendency to be negative,
Perhaps it has to do with a culture that wants to allow criminals to commit crime without consequence
and structural racism leads to there being many fewer prominent African American role models outside of sports.
As Charles Barkley said; “Parents should be role models”
From your own link:
4. Sociology. a well-established and structured pattern of behavior or of relationships that is accepted as a fundamental part of a culture, as marriage: the institution of the family.
So name an institution where racism is accepted as a fundamental part of it’s culture.
The studies I'm talking about were comparing police stops in the same neighborhoods.

Police stops are still marred by racial discrimination, new data shows.
Where in the link does it say it is in the same neighborhood?
The specific references were to North Carolina and Texas. You would know that if you read the link I posted.
The link speaks of minority; not black. In Texas, many of the minority are probably illegal immigrants who are able to go to college and get college ID. Of course you wouldn't want those people voting. That's not racism, that's common sense.
Actually, we were talking about homeless people owning cars.
No; we're talking about the poor owning cars.
They don't have the time, money, or transportation. Do you really think that poor people choose to live in ghettos out of their own free will?

The Barriers Stopping Poor People From Moving to Better Jobs
As opposed to run-down trailer parks? Yes.
There are many more hard-working poor people who will never even reach middle class, no matter how hard they work or what they do, because they were born into poverty and there is a system that takes advantage of and exploits them.
To be born poor is no excuse to quit school, have children you cannot afford to take care of, and commit crimes that give you a prison record. These behaviors make it just that much harder to succeed; you should at least give yourself a chance.
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

My dad died 1/12/2023. I'm still devastated.
Jul 1, 2007
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I believe most lives don't matter to people. Yes people care about some of their family and friends. But tempary or pretend in outrage over any other life. Born or not.
 
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Reactions: Ana the Ist
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